Petition to Allow Listening to ATC in the UK
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Petition to Allow Listening to ATC in the UK
As the title. There is a petition at the Government web-site to amend the Wireless Telegraphy Act to permit listening to Air Traffic Contol transmissions in the UK.
The UK is perhaps the only 'free' country in the world that does not permit this.
Sign the petition if you like.
Refine the ATC radio traffic act to allow UK listening - e-petitions
The UK is perhaps the only 'free' country in the world that does not permit this.
Sign the petition if you like.
Refine the ATC radio traffic act to allow UK listening - e-petitions
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When I go to work I am a pilot, not a performer or an entertainer. I would not feel particularly comfortable to think that my professional communications had an audience, whose highlight would probably be to listen in on us experiencing an emergency.
Would you be happy for me to set up a webcam in your office or place of work so I could monitor you at will? Perhaps you could also copy me in to your work emails as I curious about your communications. If the above sounds a bit weird to you can you explain why you should be able to do the equivalent to me.
Would you be happy for me to set up a webcam in your office or place of work so I could monitor you at will? Perhaps you could also copy me in to your work emails as I curious about your communications. If the above sounds a bit weird to you can you explain why you should be able to do the equivalent to me.
From the petition:
"Changing the law to designate Commercial ATC (not Military) to general reception will allow enthusiasts and training [sic] the chance to listen in."
That appears to be the extent of the supporting argument ...
"Changing the law to designate Commercial ATC (not Military) to general reception will allow enthusiasts and training [sic] the chance to listen in."
That appears to be the extent of the supporting argument ...
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Absolute bilge. The idea is presumably that of misguided persons who are just interested in their own warped interests. What is really needed is for those committing such breaches to be prosecuted.
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The issue to me is why is the UK at odds with the rest of the world? Almost anywhere else in the world, ATC listening is not only permitted, but in some cases 'broadcast' (internet feed) but the relevent authorities.
It's not as if personally indentifying information is broadcast.
We can look at photographs identifying an aircraft and watch flight tracks identfying an aircraft world-wide, listen to radio traffic (almost) world-wide except the UK. It's an anachronism in this day and age.
I can legally buy a reciever and listen to (and record) transmissions - The current law just prevents me repeating what I recieve. As for privacy, I conduct my job in the public-eye - but not for the public - and I will be judged not just by my words but by my general behavior.
It's not as if personally indentifying information is broadcast.
We can look at photographs identifying an aircraft and watch flight tracks identfying an aircraft world-wide, listen to radio traffic (almost) world-wide except the UK. It's an anachronism in this day and age.
I can legally buy a reciever and listen to (and record) transmissions - The current law just prevents me repeating what I recieve. As for privacy, I conduct my job in the public-eye - but not for the public - and I will be judged not just by my words but by my general behavior.
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Petition to Allow Listening to ATC in the UK
I agree with torque. Live atc should be available only to concerned people. I wonder what difference would it make to a normal person if he stays listening to the atc. If you want to know where an aircraft is or what it is doing, there are a lot of flight radars available online today.
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No? Thought not. I guess it's somehow different when it's your own professional communications.
Legality in other countries is not in itself a good reason to legalise something here. Frenchmen urinate in the street with impunity but I would hardly advocate that sort of behaviour here.
I also find some of the amateur monitoring of Mode S somewhat strange. The almost prurient excitement that surrounds real time emergencies, I find rather distasteful. The eagerness of some to be the first to report a 7700 squawk has something of the ambulance chaser about it, and I note that several of your post are on exactly this subject. I have little doubt that you and mny others would be delighted, as soon as you find a 7700 code on your virtual radar, to listen in, record and then forward the associated R/T.
Given that by definition, somebody or many people's lives are in jeopardy, I object to these events becoming a source of idle curiousity for voyeuristic amateurs. This is a professional environment not a soap opera so I echo Heathrow Director's attitude.
Legality in other countries is not in itself a good reason to legalise something here. Frenchmen urinate in the street with impunity but I would hardly advocate that sort of behaviour here.
I also find some of the amateur monitoring of Mode S somewhat strange. The almost prurient excitement that surrounds real time emergencies, I find rather distasteful. The eagerness of some to be the first to report a 7700 squawk has something of the ambulance chaser about it, and I note that several of your post are on exactly this subject. I have little doubt that you and mny others would be delighted, as soon as you find a 7700 code on your virtual radar, to listen in, record and then forward the associated R/T.
Given that by definition, somebody or many people's lives are in jeopardy, I object to these events becoming a source of idle curiousity for voyeuristic amateurs. This is a professional environment not a soap opera so I echo Heathrow Director's attitude.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 27th May 2013 at 23:06.
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Absolute bilge. The idea is presumably that of misguided persons who are just interested in their own warped interests. What is really needed is for those committing such breaches to be prosecuted.
I suspect Torque Tonight and Heathrow Director may have been burned in the past.... Best keep it all a big secret amongst the proper chaps eh? Personal email is also not broadcast on radio channels with random other users (pilots) listening in now is it? The Police would seriosly laugh hard if you suggested prosecution as most airport Police I know see airband scanners on a daily basis and don't bat an eyelid.
On this matter, I'd rather err on the side of security.
Refine the ATC radio traffic act to allow UK listening - e-petitions
Signed
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 27th May 2013 at 23:51.
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If you can actually come up with some valid reasons why other people's professional communications should be available for your entertainment I'm willing to listen. I certainly didn't see any in that post.
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There isn't a compelling reason other than it's been a harmless pastime for decades, does no one any harm and has never been used maliciously (transcievers are a different matter and a known nuisance). Many people are keen, engaged and interested, personally I was fascinated and used to listen in bed as I read. Routings, SIDS, STARS, exotic airlines flying to foreign locations mixed in with mail flights and domestic.
It's been available to the public to listen to for generations, scanners were and remain freely available. I respect that you may not wish everyone to be listening into your comms with ATC, but I think the stable door has been well and truly left open and that horse has bolted. Some former NATS ATCOs have even written books on the subject aimed at those very enthusiasts.
Nowadays I can see on my iPhone where an aircraft is, height, heading and location. That strikes me as more of a risk at first sight than ATC comms, however we live in an ever more open society. There are usually stands at most airshows that openly sell recievers to the public, under a loudspeaker transmitting the ATCO, at a military installation as a smiling Policeman patrols. If you think there's any actual harm involved, I wonder what it might be?
It's been available to the public to listen to for generations, scanners were and remain freely available. I respect that you may not wish everyone to be listening into your comms with ATC, but I think the stable door has been well and truly left open and that horse has bolted. Some former NATS ATCOs have even written books on the subject aimed at those very enthusiasts.
Nowadays I can see on my iPhone where an aircraft is, height, heading and location. That strikes me as more of a risk at first sight than ATC comms, however we live in an ever more open society. There are usually stands at most airshows that openly sell recievers to the public, under a loudspeaker transmitting the ATCO, at a military installation as a smiling Policeman patrols. If you think there's any actual harm involved, I wonder what it might be?
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 28th May 2013 at 00:52.
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I can't comment on entertainment purposes, but when I first started my training- I purchased a basic receiver so I could listen to ATC at my local airfield and learn calls and expected responses.
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2dpilot,
Incorrect. It is technically illegal to listen to anything but general broadcasts, such as weather information, or when it is assumed that the operating authority has given permission, in the case of a published airshow frequency.
Read the sticky at the top of the ATC forum.
Incorrect. It is technically illegal to listen to anything but general broadcasts, such as weather information, or when it is assumed that the operating authority has given permission, in the case of a published airshow frequency.
Read the sticky at the top of the ATC forum.
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The issue to me is why is the UK at odds with the rest of the world?
Don't you have a wife or girlfriend to occupy your free time with?
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When obtaining my PPL, CPL and ME-IR, I found it a great training tool to listen in on ATC conversations. It provided real-world insight into my chosen profession. I stopped listening once I got a flying job, and haven't listened to a scanner for pleasure in over seven years.
However, having had to use the word "emergency" twice in my short professional career already, I can certainly see why there are many pilots who would prefer their communications not be broadcast for all to hear. Pardon the saying, but I really don't want or need some armchair amateur (of which I once was) second guessing every decision and call my crew makes, and spitting it off on the internet for all to see.
I agree with Torque Tonight. When I come on to PPRuNe to find a bunch of guys getting their rocks off from an aircraft in distress, it makes me sick. I was never that involved in "scanning" that I cared about hearing emergency communications. It's akin to listening to a Police Scanner, hearing about a multiple homicide, then calling all your friends in excitement.
Now...working here in Canada, the knowledge that my communications can be monitored around the world ensures a certain level of professionalism. I would relish the opportunity, though, to limit the ability to listen on these conversations to people who are going to be reasonable and responsible with the information.
I have no problem if a student pilot wants to listen in on my conversation and learn from my example of what to (and what not to) do. I do not want the ambulance chasing public - of which there are many here on PPRuNe - to listen in and get their Sunday night kicks.
Unless, of course, I can listen in on your stock and bond information between you and your client in a manner which will make me a lot of money - then we can talk.
However, having had to use the word "emergency" twice in my short professional career already, I can certainly see why there are many pilots who would prefer their communications not be broadcast for all to hear. Pardon the saying, but I really don't want or need some armchair amateur (of which I once was) second guessing every decision and call my crew makes, and spitting it off on the internet for all to see.
I agree with Torque Tonight. When I come on to PPRuNe to find a bunch of guys getting their rocks off from an aircraft in distress, it makes me sick. I was never that involved in "scanning" that I cared about hearing emergency communications. It's akin to listening to a Police Scanner, hearing about a multiple homicide, then calling all your friends in excitement.
Now...working here in Canada, the knowledge that my communications can be monitored around the world ensures a certain level of professionalism. I would relish the opportunity, though, to limit the ability to listen on these conversations to people who are going to be reasonable and responsible with the information.
I have no problem if a student pilot wants to listen in on my conversation and learn from my example of what to (and what not to) do. I do not want the ambulance chasing public - of which there are many here on PPRuNe - to listen in and get their Sunday night kicks.
Unless, of course, I can listen in on your stock and bond information between you and your client in a manner which will make me a lot of money - then we can talk.
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Laws that are impossible to enforce should be abolished. They're a waste of taxpayers time and money. Petition signed.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 28th May 2013 at 06:08.
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Those current and retired professionals who belittle those who like to listen into ATC broadcasts might like to dwell on the fact that quite a few current controllers actively embrace the personal monitoring of the ATC broadcasts. I could personally name a large handful of these professional chaps who embrace the enthusiast community and actually do a great job in PR terms of explaining the high standards employed by pilots and controllers. You guys should be proud of what you do and not defensive.
I'm a professional in the aerospace & defence industry but certainly wouldn't describe myself as a crank. I'm in business and have to defend my decisions and actions everyday to anyone in my business who cares to comment. That's face to face comment as well.
Had the decision been made to police the law re; listening to ATC transmissions, the hobby would never have taken hold. However, it's far too late to ban airband radios and also radar tracking software now.
I'm a professional in the aerospace & defence industry but certainly wouldn't describe myself as a crank. I'm in business and have to defend my decisions and actions everyday to anyone in my business who cares to comment. That's face to face comment as well.
Had the decision been made to police the law re; listening to ATC transmissions, the hobby would never have taken hold. However, it's far too late to ban airband radios and also radar tracking software now.
I'm about as far from England as it's possible to get and still work in ATC.
I became aware well over 15 years ago that anything said over the radio might as well be considered to be public knowledge.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, on the odd occasion it's been good for a laugh.
I became aware well over 15 years ago that anything said over the radio might as well be considered to be public knowledge.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact, on the odd occasion it's been good for a laugh.