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Private run 787 Simulator Questions

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Private run 787 Simulator Questions

Old 20th Feb 2012, 02:17
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Private run 787 Simulator Questions

I'm considering a business proposition to import and build a medium cost 787 simulator to be operated out of Brisbane, Australia; the first privately owned 787 sim. I'm expecting to fork out up to $200k for a worthwhile simulator that will be open to both the public and hopefully the corporate Airline world (this will be the biggest challenge!). It will be a full cockpit, non moving simulator and 180 degree visuals. Jetstar is taking delivery of their first 787 in 2013 so I would like to have it running before then, while the new aircraft is still the talk of the town!

I'm looking for some help with some questions to gauge if it is worth my while:

1. Would you be interested in flying a full cockpit 787 for a cost between $150-$250/hr? and would you travel to Brisbane for it?
2. Is there a section in professional pilot training that Airlines would consider using this for (for a low hire cost)?
3. Do you think universities offering aviation courses would benefit from this... will the 787 become an 'entry level' aircraft that new pilots would begin their career in?
4. Is there any other target markets you can think of that I have missed?
5. Is there any particular requirements the simulator would need to attract the right people?

Thanks for your input!
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 07:33
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You may find the maintenance engineers interested because at the moment all the sim time is being hogged by flt crew training.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 07:39
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Who would be the supplier, at that price.

Who supplies the data set, to be a reasonable simulation you need manufactures data set.

Who is the certification authority. (5)

What level of simulation are you proposing to offer.

To have any crew use the sim for initials and recurrents you need to have approval from the regulatory authority, and I would assume a TRTO authority.

There is also the market for crew assesments. (2).

as mentioned engineers would be interested, but again they might require the device to be certified.

I have access to a SIM manufacturer, here in UAE, mostly for cabin simulation, but cockpit also. They are not flight operational.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 08:23
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For anyone to use an FSTD it needs to be certified. To be certified it has to meet certain criteria. That criteria is laid down in various regulations that determine the MINIMUM levels of fidelity you have to meet.

Just to give you an idea of initial costs. Mr Boeing will charge you somewhere in the region of US6-8M for the necessary parts and data for a 787 simulator!!!! Mr Boeing will also want 15% of everything you make off of the operation (I kid you not). Donít even think about replica/copy parts because Mr Boeing today protects his IPR vigorously.

Unfortunately we havenít even started yet on costs but Iím afraid for aircraft types such as 787/A350 there are only 2 manufacturers who are capable of producing devices that are capable of being certified and for US200K you wonít even scratch the surface.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 10:22
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thanks for your replies. From my limited research so far I'm looking at dealing with Flight Deck Solutions, a US company. They have supplied replica parts to boeing for the 787 roadshow, I haven't been able to find out to what extent though, but yes IPR could be a hurdle aswell. I'm still not 100% sure on the costs, i based my 'guess' of 200k on the other aircraft FDS have on offer.

CASA would be the certifying authority, there are other more retail based companies in Aus that CASA has been able to certify for procedural training, i need to check what level they have been able to achieve, but this looks like it shouldn't be a major problem.

Based on the replies I think its a good idea avoiding flight crews as an option for initials etc, but i will seriously look into what I can offer for the engineers, and assessments, thanks for that suggestion.

I'm not sure on data set, I haven't looked into that yet, any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 11:26
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dont get excited guys

It looks like the plan is to make a bedroom sim, with enhanced facilities.

So the references, including mine, to real sims are premature.

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Old 20th Feb 2012, 13:58
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Three points, Flightdeck Solutions are a Canadian company - they would probably get quite upset at being described as American!

As they have made a number of training devices for Boeing themselves they obviously have Boeing's permission.

A number of FTDs from this company have at least gained FNPTII certification.
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Old 20th Feb 2012, 16:22
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JKnights - having been involved in exactly the business you describe here in the UK my advice would be to be very cautious about getting into this business. It is not the pot of gold it appears.

There are two very distinct markets; professional and leisure. The latter is becoming very competitive and hourly rates are so low that you will need a very high utilisation rate to make a return once you have taken into account staff, building and marketing costs as well as depreciation and maintenance on the sim itself.

I also think that your price point of A$200k may be very much on the low side for a quality simulator that will withstand a daily battering at the hands of amateur and (especially!) professional pilots. There are many chancers out there that will have a go at building a cheap sim but the thing will likely fall apart if it is not made from strong (and preferably real) parts such as the yoke, throttle etc.

Then there is the professional market which is a real can of worms - airlines wont touch it unless it has the required approval and the cost of getting such and approval if you are not an established operater could run into hundreds of thousands if not millions. To get the maximum number of credits you will need the highest level which will require the manufacturers data pack - the cost of these alone is around £500k plus an annual fee and the only place you can get a Boeing data pack is, you guessed it, from Boeing!

Also trying to get a straight answer from any airline or regulator is like tryng to nail jelly to the wall! Airlines wont even talk about committing until you have the approval and the regulator wont confirm whether it is possible until you have applied for it.

It can become a bottomless pit and an exceptionally frustrating way to spend your time and money. My advice would be to avoid like the plague but if you would like any more insights (including why I would never deal with FDS) then please feel free to PM me.
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