Muddy runway
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Muddy runway
What happens if a small plane (say, a Queen Air 
), during landing on a muddy runway, gets one (only one) of the main wheels stuck in the mud (at near touchdown speed 
)? Also, if this happens, what (if anything) can the pilot do to keep the plane from getting totalled? Thanks in advance!
), during landing on a muddy runway, gets one (only one) of the main wheels stuck in the mud (at near touchdown speed )? Also, if this happens, what (if anything) can the pilot do to keep the plane from getting totalled? Thanks in advance!
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As a SLF I am commenting from experience rather than knowledge of the operations. In the late 80's I flew on Suckling Airways from Manchester to Ipswich (an all grass airfield) one Friday evening in a Dornier 228. The flight was diverted to Stansted as apparently the Ipswich runway had worsened during the day as a result of heavy rains and was no longer safe.
Seemed eminently sensible to me. I would hope that procedures would avoid using a muddy runway where there was a risk.
Although letting my then wife know was a challenge in the pre-mobile era. IIRC she had driven past Stansted en route to Ipswich only to be told that we were arriving late at Stansted and our eventual destination was exactly midway between the two.
Seemed eminently sensible to me. I would hope that procedures would avoid using a muddy runway where there was a risk.
Although letting my then wife know was a challenge in the pre-mobile era. IIRC she had driven past Stansted en route to Ipswich only to be told that we were arriving late at Stansted and our eventual destination was exactly midway between the two.
Last edited by srobarts; 30th Dec 2010 at 12:58. Reason: typo
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Agent - we have tried to help so far with your questions. This one is verging on the 'ridiculous'.
Q1: Surely you can work out that if a wheel is 'stuck' in the mud on landing the aircraft either comes to a sudden stop in a crumpled heap or the wheel/leg is ripped off and the aircraft .......................comes to a sudden stop in a crumpled heap?
Q2: Nothing
Q1: Surely you can work out that if a wheel is 'stuck' in the mud on landing the aircraft either comes to a sudden stop in a crumpled heap or the wheel/leg is ripped off and the aircraft .......................comes to a sudden stop in a crumpled heap?
Q2: Nothing
Last edited by BOAC; 30th Dec 2010 at 17:17.
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Agent, things don't get 'stuck' at speed. Air is a fluid, so is water, so is mud, so is damp earth. True the densities (mass/volume) vary, but they all act as fluids when fast-moving objects encounter them.
This is why, when I saw a TV programme last night of a Heinkel 111 from a 1940 raid being dug out of a field near Bristol, I wasn't surprised that the second engine was found 15 feet below the surface. It hasn't taken 70 years to travel there, it was there about a twentieth of a second after the first part of the airframe struck the field surface. When you recover such an object, generally the deeper you find it, the less damaged it is - because it took longer to decelerate to rest and therefore the forces applied to it during that deceleration were lower. Impulse (= force x time) equals change in momentum (= mass x velocity).
Hope that helps explain a bit of Isaac Newton.
This is why, when I saw a TV programme last night of a Heinkel 111 from a 1940 raid being dug out of a field near Bristol, I wasn't surprised that the second engine was found 15 feet below the surface. It hasn't taken 70 years to travel there, it was there about a twentieth of a second after the first part of the airframe struck the field surface. When you recover such an object, generally the deeper you find it, the less damaged it is - because it took longer to decelerate to rest and therefore the forces applied to it during that deceleration were lower. Impulse (= force x time) equals change in momentum (= mass x velocity).
Hope that helps explain a bit of Isaac Newton.
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Agent - You seem like an incredibly imaginative guy/girl, can we go for a beer ?
We can chat about Heated runways, LOM approaches and getting wheels stuck in the mud.
Keep em coming.
We can chat about Heated runways, LOM approaches and getting wheels stuck in the mud.
Keep em coming.
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OK, that's actually just like I thought -- if one wheel gets mired during the landing run, the plane will be totalled and there's nothing that the pilot can do to prevent this. I was just trying to make sure.
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By the way, BOAC, there's no need to be rude -- all I'm trying to do is to look at some ideas for my heroine's landing on a muddy runway while critically bingo-fuel after a rescue mission in the Arctic. And I've already mentioned in the thread about the LOM approach procedures that I don't know jack sh** about soft-field landings, didn't I? By the way, just so you know, I already suspected that getting one wheel dug into the mud on landing will probably be the end of the line for my heroine's Queen Air (and more likely than not for her entire flying career as well); I was just wondering if maybe it would be possible to free the stuck wheel in time to avoid crashing by applying full rudder and aileron in the direction away from the stuck wheel (apparently not).
And Gregg X, as much as I'd love to talk to you about all that cool stuff, it looks like we'll have to be satisfied with talking online -- I live in California, while you apparently live in Great Britain.
And Gregg X, as much as I'd love to talk to you about all that cool stuff, it looks like we'll have to be satisfied with talking online -- I live in California, while you apparently live in Great Britain.
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AO,
Absolutely a gear can get stuck on landing.
Mud...lots of stuff can happen. Hard mud (nearly frozen clay mud, for example) tends to be fairly slick if still slightly wet. If frozen, it's like landing on tarmac. Nothing much different. If thick mud, one can dig in and flip, damage gear, groundloop, skid, make a sharp turn, or any number of other things.
I have seen airplanes stop very suddenly from an approach speed; so quickly they didn't skid. I attended the crash scene of a M18 Dromader many years ago, when they were still very new in the United States. It was loaded with chemical (600 gallons, an enormous chemical load for ag airplanes back then), and thus had plenty of inertia as it entered the field. One of the main gear struck a fence post hidden in tall cochia bushes that were surrounding the field. I'd have bet anything that the fence post could have been uprooted and tossed, or at least broken. It wasn't. The airplane stopped post-haste, didn't even skid, the hopper shattered and the spar broke, and the pilot drowned in the chemical.
Not much difference between approaching the field to spray, and approaching to land.
I've seen and done some extremely short landings in mud and muddy fields. Muddy enough that one had to carry a LOT of power to taxi.
The nice thing about fiction, however, is that your character doesn't need to be gnats-ass accurate. You can make your protagonist rip off a gear, skid, turn over, or do whatever you like. Research and research, but at the end of the day don't lose sight of the fact that it's still fiction, and you have a lot of lattitude as you write that novel. As always, good luck!
Absolutely a gear can get stuck on landing.
Mud...lots of stuff can happen. Hard mud (nearly frozen clay mud, for example) tends to be fairly slick if still slightly wet. If frozen, it's like landing on tarmac. Nothing much different. If thick mud, one can dig in and flip, damage gear, groundloop, skid, make a sharp turn, or any number of other things.
I have seen airplanes stop very suddenly from an approach speed; so quickly they didn't skid. I attended the crash scene of a M18 Dromader many years ago, when they were still very new in the United States. It was loaded with chemical (600 gallons, an enormous chemical load for ag airplanes back then), and thus had plenty of inertia as it entered the field. One of the main gear struck a fence post hidden in tall cochia bushes that were surrounding the field. I'd have bet anything that the fence post could have been uprooted and tossed, or at least broken. It wasn't. The airplane stopped post-haste, didn't even skid, the hopper shattered and the spar broke, and the pilot drowned in the chemical.
Not much difference between approaching the field to spray, and approaching to land.
I've seen and done some extremely short landings in mud and muddy fields. Muddy enough that one had to carry a LOT of power to taxi.
The nice thing about fiction, however, is that your character doesn't need to be gnats-ass accurate. You can make your protagonist rip off a gear, skid, turn over, or do whatever you like. Research and research, but at the end of the day don't lose sight of the fact that it's still fiction, and you have a lot of lattitude as you write that novel. As always, good luck!
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You can make your protagonist rip off a gear, skid, turn over, or do whatever you like.
Also, one more question that might appear ridiculous: The Queen Air in question is equipped with wheel-ski landing gear in case of an ice landing; is it better in this case (cold, wet, slippery mud) to land on wheels or on skis? (The skis in question are equipped with skegs, just so you know.)
AO, not seen any pics of a Q-A on skis,but others may have...a Q-A has low wings ,engine intakes and props,unlike something like a T-Otter...so landing on skis may throw up a lot of `muck` that may impinge on the engines/props,especially from the nosewheel.....however,a book I have on `bush-pilots` in Can,and Alska shows aircraft operating on skis off mud-flats,tidal beaches, ets...however most were tailwheel,or high-wing.....
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Well, when the runway's THAT muddy, there's gonna be a lot of muck being thrown up by the landing gear in any case. I just thought that landing on skis on the cold slippery mud may reduce the risk of getting one of the landing gear "points" stuck in the mud at speed and flipping the plane on its back as previously discussed (especially when using the sideslip method of compensating for the strong gusty crosswind). On the other hand, it might increase the landing run, and/or complicate the taxi from the runway to the hangar. So I'd like to hear some thoughts about the pros and cons of landing on the mud on skis vs. on wheels.
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BTW, could you give me some idea about how much the landing run will increase in this scenario vs. the normal landing run? I know that for the Queen, the normal landing run is 1,280 feet; but what's the multiplier for this scenario?
With gusty crosswinds, raising the flaps upon touchdown, or just prior to touchdown is a common back-country rough-field/short field technique, to put the weight on the wheels and reduce drift and lift. Depending on the runway, techniques such as landing diagonally across the runway to gain a very slight landing distance and reduce the crosswind component slightly are also sometimes used.
If the airplane is carrying ice as it approaches to land, it may need to be flown faster, which means a longer landing rollout.
If you're talking about a runway that's not super-slick, but also cold and relatively hard with some gravel on it, rather than mud, you have a landing surface and characteristics/performance closer to a gravel airstrip. Chances are that the operator will be using reduced tire pressure, may be utilizing the natural reduction in landing roll that comes with it. The big thing in the Queen Air will be to keep the nosegear from getting mired or dug-in, to keep from damaging the airplane.
Perhaps the protagonist can get the airplane stopped in a shorter distance, but if she's worth her weight in salt, she will let the airplane roll-out full length, keep it moving to keep from getting stuck, and let it slow enough that she has to add or carry differential power to taxi (after landing as straight as she can make it). Make sure she carries the differential to turn into the wind.
It's more of an advanced technique, but if the crosswind is going to cause her problems with staying on the runway (wet, muddy, slick), she can carry some differential power on the approach. This may cause some groans from the airline crowd that will be shocked at the idea, but assymetrical power (more thrust on one engine) also can be used to counter the drift with a crosswind, during an approach. I don't think it's taught much any more.
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Thanks for the info, this was a big help. Looks like I've finally got this part mostly right. 
The fact that the landing run will be more than doubled is very good news for me (but not for my heroine
). What I think I'll do is use a fierce gust of wind to throw the plane off course at the last minute and have her re-align the plane with the runway, causing her to land long (and also a little fast because of the gusty crosswind), and then let her skid along toward the end of the runway (and toward some big boulders past the departure end), frantically trying to slow the plane. Since the landing run is more than doubled, this won't be too unrealistic...
Well anyway, I hope I haven't spoiled all the action for you. Happy New Year, and I think I'll talk to you again soon.
The fact that the landing run will be more than doubled is very good news for me (but not for my heroine). What I think I'll do is use a fierce gust of wind to throw the plane off course at the last minute and have her re-align the plane with the runway, causing her to land long (and also a little fast because of the gusty crosswind), and then let her skid along toward the end of the runway (and toward some big boulders past the departure end), frantically trying to slow the plane. Since the landing run is more than doubled, this won't be too unrealistic...Well anyway, I hope I haven't spoiled all the action for you. Happy New Year, and I think I'll talk to you again soon.
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Muddy runways can cause problems. The following is from my Dad's memoirs which are included in the 'pilot's brvet' thread in the Mil forum.
Dad was in Burma and this was towards the end of WW2.
"We then moved to Kinmagan and by now the monsoon was at its height. The whole area was flooded to a depth of 18 inches, as far as the eye could see. It was like living in a large lake. We walked and lived in the water, up to our knees.
There was a mess-tent and the water was almost up to the top of the forms that we sat on. Our tent was also flooded, of course. I had a box, on end, on which I kept my boots. I put bricks under the legs of my bed and when I got in, I would look underneath and if there was 2" clearance between me and the flood water, then all was well. I also had my rifle and Sten gun
in bed with me! This lasted for about three weeks and as the
flood receded, life returned to nornal. (Surprised he didn't mention this was the second time he got a sting from a scorpion. He didn't shake his boots out one monring).
One day a Dakota wanted to land. People tried letting off red Verey flares, but they were all wet and would not fire. The aircraft landed and then ploughed two troughs, about one foot wide and one foot deep, right up the length of the runway.
Peasant women subsequently filled up the trenches with baskets of soil, carried on their heads. A few days later, the C.O. of 47 Squadron decided that they would fly the Mosqitoes off.
People were muttering that they thought it was too soon. Although it was still drizzling, they were started up and they taxied, one behind the other, down to the further end of the runway. The first one opened up and as he was just getting the tail up, the aircraft slid off off the strip and into the
bog-land where the undercarriage broke off.
The second aircraft started his run and exactly the same thing happened. After the third aircraft came to grief, the C.O. decided that, 'flying was scrubbed'. (You can imagine how happy the ground crew were that they had to put the Mossies back together.....)
Cheers!
Dad was in Burma and this was towards the end of WW2.
"We then moved to Kinmagan and by now the monsoon was at its height. The whole area was flooded to a depth of 18 inches, as far as the eye could see. It was like living in a large lake. We walked and lived in the water, up to our knees.
There was a mess-tent and the water was almost up to the top of the forms that we sat on. Our tent was also flooded, of course. I had a box, on end, on which I kept my boots. I put bricks under the legs of my bed and when I got in, I would look underneath and if there was 2" clearance between me and the flood water, then all was well. I also had my rifle and Sten gun
in bed with me! This lasted for about three weeks and as the
flood receded, life returned to nornal. (Surprised he didn't mention this was the second time he got a sting from a scorpion. He didn't shake his boots out one monring).
One day a Dakota wanted to land. People tried letting off red Verey flares, but they were all wet and would not fire. The aircraft landed and then ploughed two troughs, about one foot wide and one foot deep, right up the length of the runway.
Peasant women subsequently filled up the trenches with baskets of soil, carried on their heads. A few days later, the C.O. of 47 Squadron decided that they would fly the Mosqitoes off.
People were muttering that they thought it was too soon. Although it was still drizzling, they were started up and they taxied, one behind the other, down to the further end of the runway. The first one opened up and as he was just getting the tail up, the aircraft slid off off the strip and into the
bog-land where the undercarriage broke off.
The second aircraft started his run and exactly the same thing happened. After the third aircraft came to grief, the C.O. decided that, 'flying was scrubbed'. (You can imagine how happy the ground crew were that they had to put the Mossies back together.....)
Cheers!
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Agent,
The purpose of this forum is not to help people write books, especially when they have the cheek to call one of our most senior and very highly experienced, very skilled posters - rude. His response was similar to mine now - that you have gone too far. We HAVE helped but that is the limit.
This is a Spotters forum and we intend to keep it for that purpose.
The purpose of this forum is not to help people write books, especially when they have the cheek to call one of our most senior and very highly experienced, very skilled posters - rude. His response was similar to mine now - that you have gone too far. We HAVE helped but that is the limit.
This is a Spotters forum and we intend to keep it for that purpose.
