Newcastle Plane off the Runway

[yeoman]

It hasn't overshot the runway.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

[HighLow]

Yeoman,
are you stating fact, and news authorities are just making stuff up?

"In icy conditions last night, a plane with 196 passengers overshot its landing position at Newcastle airport.
No one on board the Thomsonfly Boeing 737-800 from Lanzarote was injured, but the airport was closed for a time after the incident."

Snow Settles Across Britain On Friday As Weather Set To Deteriorate Next Week | UK News | Sky News


and if you check out the Newcastle Airport website, its redirecting you to a screen explaining.... well see it for yourself!!!

Newcastle Airport - Winter Information


and Yeoman, not sure where you coming from with that post, you actually denying something happened? another link for ya...
Pilot hailed after emergency landing at Newcastle Airport - Chronicle News - News - ChronicleLive

[Hooligan Bill]

F14 and Highlow,

The UK CAA have stepped in and they have said that when measuring braking action in conditions of slush or thin deposits of wet snow, friction measuring devices can produce inaccurate readings. in conditions of slush, or uncompacted snow, no plain language estimates of braking action derived from those readings shall be passed to pilots. In this case, pilots shall be informed on the RTF that measurements of co-efficients of friction are unreliable in conditions of slush or thin deposits of wet snow and, consequently, braking action assessments are not availab

[F14]

Bill,

So how can the rest of the world give Braking Actions under these conditions?

[HighLow]

So the UK are correct? and FAA? airports in Nordic countries? all are wrong and "INACCURATE", very serious claim by the CAA indeed..

Your statement "The CAA have stepped in" is just nonsense, they have stepping in alright....and that is why they do NOT give us braking actions....just tell me exactly how they do it elsewhere?


You see whats happening here...
the UK airports (in conjunction with the CAA) want business from airlines, and will collect landing charges off each aircraft that lands..

they would rather say everything is ok.. and if an aircraft touches down, the airport get paid HAPPY DAYS.

if the airport authority started telling the TRUTH and stating when braking action was POOR, they would loose this income source due to aircraft diverting elsewhere!!

This is a money making racket and the expense of SAFETY!!

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Welcome to the world of Litigation.

If the airport gives a reported braking action as medium and an aircraft skids off the runway, it is the Airports fault. Wonder why we get limited information????

If that information is not given, it has to be the Pilot's fault for the subsequent excursion as they failed to make an accurate assessment of the conditions. As mentioned previously I would find that very difficult to do at 10,000 ft. Moreover, I have been flying for 18 years and when I touch down and use a combination of Antiskid, Autobrake and Reverse Thrust, I would find it impossible to say whether the braking action was poor, medium, good medium to poor or any combination thereof. It can only be done on the ground, using approved techniques, regardless of the difficulties in obtaining the figures.

We can only make a decision with the information available, and braking actions are a vital part of the decision making process. I do not know if braking actions were given on this occasion although being fair, I have found NCL ATC to be very helpful during my 7 seasons of winter ops. I hope this incident will not prevent ATC passing on information in the future.

Ultimately, the aircraft stayed on the hard stuff, no-one was hurt and the aircraft can be used again. Can we avoid the hysteria please.

Ps if the crew are reading this, there, but for the grace of god, we all go. ( strange expression from an agnostic, but you get the message of support)

[A4]

Hooligan,

That's been the CAA stance for a long while. After last winter they were undertaking a complete review.

Pretty uncomfortable feeling when you have no hard info as to what braking action is likely to be. Not much use being told it's "unreliable"! Kind of puts all the emphasis (read pass the buck) on you to make an approach or not.

Fly safe everyone.

A4

[1.6vs]

Stop Press! Aircraft misses 'turn off' exit. Passengers are forced to use steps provided by handling agents. Wow!!, can,t wait for the next Blockbuster!

[HighLow]

Flyit,

i agree with the majority of your comments, but this is not hysteria!!

trying to land a 60 tonne aircraft on an ice rink, with no hope in hell of stopping, thats when things get nasty.

At the end of the day, its the flight crews licence and job on the line
and peoples safety, so I would have to respectively disagree with your assertion that this is hysteria.

1.6V, your tone is noted; this is a debate about the current situation facing pilots landing in UK during Winter Operations ; Remember any of us can have a fright with the impending cold weather, landing on ice could happen to YOU and I trust after you experience such a slide, you wouldn't be so condescending in the future.

[eastern wiseguy]

I hope this incident will not prevent ATC passing on information in the future.

NATS aerodrome controller here. We are FORBIDDEN to even know the results from the griptest results. We cannot pass braking action as the CAA tell us the machine will only measure the braking co-efficient of wet runways.

Makes me uncomfortable too......although with a hell of a lot less at stake.

[JockMcToff]

HighLow- you're only adding to the hysteria! Must be a slow news day where you are!

Read the other threads on the subject and the press reports. And yes, I do believe the news "authorities" have made stuff up. Of course normally all their well written articles are done by experts on the subject matter!

Think about it:
BBC Headline news... Plane off the runway "skidding" into a field... Tyne and Wear Fire service said the aircraft had gone very slightly off the runway, but the wheels remained on the asphalt at all times... erm, so it didn't really skid into a field then or leave the runway, not much on an excursion really!

Next it will be reported the airliner narrowly missed a school/hospital/orphanage (delete as applicable)

Pax using stairs? If they were flying RYR they'd have had to pay extra for that!

Aircraft undamaged, pax and crew safe, end of story.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Newcastle once told me that no braking action could be given until snow had stopped falling and lain for 30 mins to "stabilise" for accurate readings. Thus no landing is prudent either during snowfall or until 30 mins after it has ended and a satisfactory reading been received.
I wonder if the same timescale applies to post snow-clearance?

As I have no wish to be dubbed "heroic" from now on any time there's recent snow or slush of any sort and "braking action not available" I'll be going elsewhere. And hopefully avoid having to kiss the ground in relief because of it.

Incidentally, there was a thread on this subject that had gone to 15 posts or so by 2300 last night and now seems to have disappeared! Met reports published on it implied a tailwind...

[1.6vs]

highlow

HMMMMM Looks like the mods aren't too excited about it either. come on hardly news eh!

[Firestorm]

A4. My information is that the CAA haven't actually started the complete review yet, and my opinion is that they will probably put off doing it for as long as they can get away with it. If I was to to opine that it is an excersize in protecting certain bottoms from being blamed, and passing a buck to someone else's bottom, and you were to opine that my view was cynical I wouldn't pick a fight over your opinion!

I'm not sure that this is suitable material for passengers and plane spotters. Mods care to comment?

Eastern Wiseguy: I know your restrictions on passing braking action and runway conditions, but I expect that a message was put on the ATIS to say that the runway was blocked by an aeroplane which is an unambiguous summation of the runway condition: unusable!

[eastern wiseguy]

Firestorm...of course but I thought we were talking about the inability of ATC to pass accurate braking action.

Runways can become blocked on the warmest driest of days as well....

[yeoman]

Edited to read

I give up.

[Checkboard]

well ... someone had to ...

METAR EGNT 251920Z 31009KT 8000 SCT010 SCT025 00/00 Q1010
METAR EGNT 251950Z 31006KT 9999 FEW010 SCT015CB M01/M01 Q1010
METAR EGNT 252050Z 31013KT 4500 -SHSN SCT004 BKN009CB M01/M01 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252120Z 31010KT 7000 FEW004 SCT010CB M01/M01 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252150Z 31006KT 9999 SCT025 M01/M01 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252220Z 30006KT 9999 SCT025 M00/M00 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252250Z 31006KT 9999 FEW020 M00/M00 Q1009
METAR EGNT 252320Z 34009KT 6000 SHSN FEW010 SCT018 M00/M00 Q1010
METAR EGNT 252350Z 31007KT 4000 -SHSN FEW010 SCT018 00/00 Q1010
METAR EGNT 260020Z 31006KT 4000 -SHSN FEW010 SCT018 00/00 Q1009
METAR EGNT 260050Z 30005KT 8000 FEW010 SCT018 M01/M01 Q1009

... which, on the face of it, isn't that bad ... wind is light, less than 10 knots, light snow showers at 8:50 pm, temperature just on freezing ... not much to report at all.

I can understand the CAA not wanting to report braking actions in slush, as slush holds the water on the runway and the aircraft then aquaplanes on that trapped water. For this reason a car might find good braking, and a touching down aircraft almost no braking at all. One aircraft, with good tread and higher pressure tyres may not have a problem, and the next, with poor tread and lower tyre pressure may struggle to stop.

As the UK is only "just" in the snow zone, it gets more slush than dry snow (as you find more often in Europe) so assessing braking action is more difficult. As I understand it, the current policy is to close the runway for clearing, if the contaminant exceeds 3mm water equivalent depth - so if it's open it should be "usable" - if with caution.

[A4]

If you haven't already..........

Pilot hailed after emergency landing at Newcastle Airport - Chronicle News - News - ChronicleLive

I'm speechless.

A4

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Originally Posted by HighLow

ATC not prepared to give a braking action is threading on thin ice to say the least, Expecting the flight crew to make an assessment (from the flightdeck???)...This is just not acceptable,

The CAA will have to act now. High Low

This is the CAA's perspective................................................. .............


Applicability: All Aeroplane Operators
WINTER OPERATIONS 2010/2011: PROMULGATION OF RUNWAY SURFACE CONTAMINATION
INFORMATION TO CREWS
1 Introduction
1.1 The adverse weather experienced in the UK during the winter of 2009/2010 caused numerous difficulties for UK airports and their users. A common complaint from airline operators and aircrew was the lack of timely, accurate and complete information about the state of the runways during periods of adverse weather capable of leading to the contamination of the runway surface. As a result, a series of joint CAA/industry meetings were held and consensus was reached on the reporting of surface conditions.
1.2 Additionally, a new runway condition assessment and reporting matrix has been developed and will be tested during a trial. This matrix is intended to help operators make better decisions about take-off and landing performance.
1.3 The purpose of this FODCOM is to alert aeroplane operators to the guidance available for winter operations, to remind them of the need to brief crews on winter operations and to give notice of the forthcoming trial of a new system for reporting runway conditions. A limited number of aerodromes will participate in this trial and details will be issued shortly.
2 Aerodrome Winter Operations
2.1 It is the responsibility of the aerodrome operator to ensure that when the aerodrome is available for use the movement area remains safe for the operation of aircraft at all times. Additionally, CAP 168, Licensing of Aerodromes, Chapter 10, Aeronautical Information, requires ‘that all information relating to the aerodrome and its facilities, which is significant for the conduct of flights to and from the aerodrome, is available to users of the aerodrome.’
2.2 During snow conditions, UK aerodromes have for many years operated a ‘back to blacktop’ policy. Although this is a goal supported by the CAA, there may be operational circumstances where it is preferable to keep the runway open despite a light covering of snow. Aerodrome operations staff will make tactical decisions at the time concerning continuing operations during adverse weather, including closure for snow clearing.
2.3 Feedback from operators has shown that information on the type, depth and extent of contamination of the runway (and/or taxiways and aprons) is often incomplete or out of date. Consequently, and especially during adverse weather, any significant change in the runway state should be made available to crews through the following means:
a) Automatic Terminal Information Service;
b) SNOWTAM (Form CA1272);
c) Runway State Groups appended to METAR; and
d) Plain language broadcast by Air Traffic Control.
2.4 It is the CAA’s policy that direct readings from Continuous Friction Measuring Equipment (CFME) should not be passed to crews, as there is no direct correlation between CFME readings and aircraft braking performance. However, UK aerodromes will now provide the following:
• the type of contaminant;
FLIGHT OPERATIONS COMMUNICATION - 27/2010
2
• its depth; and
• the percentage coverage at the touchdown, mid-point and stop end of the runway in use.
2.5 See also Notice to Aerodrome Licence Holders 2010/09.
3 Recommendations
3.1 Operators should ensure that crews are fully briefed on the above developments and all aspects of winter operations. Guidance can be found in many publications, some of which are on the CAA’s website at Winter Operations | Flight Operations | Safety Regulation.
3.2 Once detail regarding the forthcoming trial of a new system for reporting runway conditions is published, operators should ensure that crews are aware of the methods that will be used to promulgate runway contamination information at the trial aerodromes, and how this information is applied to take-off and landing performance data.
4 Queries
4.1 Any queries as a result of this Flight Operations Communication should be addressed to the operator’s Flight Operations Inspector (FOI), or for those who do not have an assigned FOI to the Head of Flight Operations Policy at the following e-mail address: [email protected].
11 October 2010
Recipients of new Flight Operations Communications are asked to ensure that these are copied to their 'in house' or contracted maintenance organisation, to relevant outside contractors, and to all members of their staff who could have an interest in the information or who need to take appropriate action in response to this Communication. Flight Operations Communications can be accessed directly via the website List of Flight Operations Division Communications (FODCOMs) for Aeroplane and Helicopter AOC holders. | Publications | CAA.
New Flight Operations Communications are now also notified by RSS newsfeeds. See

[MATELO]

Fm the Chronicle....

the captain stepped out of his cockpit and asked: "Does anybody want to kiss the tarmac?"

What are we not being told......