20min turns fail again!
Guest
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20min turns fail again!
Looks like 20 minute turns cant be done on a 737. I notice that EasyJets Punctuality has hit Rock Bottom in Scotland according to the latest CAA figures.
GLA - LTN 50% within 15 mins EZY
GLA - STN 80% within 15 mins GOE
go most punctual on GLA - LON!
EDI - LTN 39% within 15 mins EZY
EDI - STN 77% within 15 mins GOE
and for reference:
EDI - AMS 32% within 15 mins EZY
Go look for yourself:
http://www.caaerg.co.uk/ADUPublished...20Analysis.xls
GLA - LTN 50% within 15 mins EZY
GLA - STN 80% within 15 mins GOE
go most punctual on GLA - LON!
EDI - LTN 39% within 15 mins EZY
EDI - STN 77% within 15 mins GOE
and for reference:
EDI - AMS 32% within 15 mins EZY
Go look for yourself:
http://www.caaerg.co.uk/ADUPublished...20Analysis.xls
Guest
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Guest
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Copenhagen,
In order to leave on time, you have to arrive on time. Just because the flight left late doesn't mean there wasn't a 20mi. turn round.
I have personally had a 16mi. turn round at GLA. The setup is good, with "captured pax" who don't wander off to the bar, duty free shop etc. all ready to jump in.
Generally the cockpit set up is not a problem so arrival time and disembarkation are the key.
In order to leave on time, you have to arrive on time. Just because the flight left late doesn't mean there wasn't a 20mi. turn round.
I have personally had a 16mi. turn round at GLA. The setup is good, with "captured pax" who don't wander off to the bar, duty free shop etc. all ready to jump in.
Generally the cockpit set up is not a problem so arrival time and disembarkation are the key.
Guest
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Im not quoting BA data... Im quoting CAA data.
As for the weather arguement, surely GO and EasyJet have the exact same weather in Scotland. A few days "snow" (come live in Arlanda for real "snow") does not cause a near 40% variance in punctuality.
And the EDI AMS flight does not fly via LTN.
Yet again Stelios blames BA for bad weather!
Think about a 20 min turn for a full flight...
1 min to get airstairs, etc ready
8 mins to get all the slf off the flight
= a passenger every 3 seconds!
4 mins to complete seatbelt security check
= a seat every 5 seconds for a crewmember, (Assuming 3 crewmembers - not assuming any crew also do boarding like FR!)
6 mins to get all those SLF on
= 2.4 seconds per passenger
1 min to close doors, etc before push back!
Is that possible? Maybe once in a while, but not on every turn!
Result 40% punctuality!
Edited for calculations!
[This message has been edited by Copenhagen (edited 25 May 2001).]
As for the weather arguement, surely GO and EasyJet have the exact same weather in Scotland. A few days "snow" (come live in Arlanda for real "snow") does not cause a near 40% variance in punctuality.
And the EDI AMS flight does not fly via LTN.
Yet again Stelios blames BA for bad weather!
Think about a 20 min turn for a full flight...
1 min to get airstairs, etc ready
8 mins to get all the slf off the flight
= a passenger every 3 seconds!
4 mins to complete seatbelt security check
= a seat every 5 seconds for a crewmember, (Assuming 3 crewmembers - not assuming any crew also do boarding like FR!)
6 mins to get all those SLF on
= 2.4 seconds per passenger
1 min to close doors, etc before push back!
Is that possible? Maybe once in a while, but not on every turn!
Result 40% punctuality!
Edited for calculations!
[This message has been edited by Copenhagen (edited 25 May 2001).]
Guest
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For the record easyJets on time record is good at the moment and the stats on the easyJet website are correct - thats a fact.
Lifestyle at the Orange Airline has also picked up with 10 to 12 days off per month not uncommon now.
Can 20 minutes turns be done in a 737? Yes, it depends on the ground organisation though. Easyjet often do it in Scotland, and in Belfast where the ground set up lends itself to our needs, 16 or 17 minute turns are regularly achieved.
About the brake cooling it depends on a lot of factors one of the most critical being whether or not reverse thrust is used during the landing. I haven't got the books in front of me but ballpark with Reverse Thrust and Autobrake you need about 16 minutes for cooling; without Reverse Thrust and with Autobrake it goes up to about 40 to 45 mins. As I said these are ball park figures; average landing weights etc.
Lifestyle at the Orange Airline has also picked up with 10 to 12 days off per month not uncommon now.
Can 20 minutes turns be done in a 737? Yes, it depends on the ground organisation though. Easyjet often do it in Scotland, and in Belfast where the ground set up lends itself to our needs, 16 or 17 minute turns are regularly achieved.
About the brake cooling it depends on a lot of factors one of the most critical being whether or not reverse thrust is used during the landing. I haven't got the books in front of me but ballpark with Reverse Thrust and Autobrake you need about 16 minutes for cooling; without Reverse Thrust and with Autobrake it goes up to about 40 to 45 mins. As I said these are ball park figures; average landing weights etc.
Guest
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The idea of 20 mins is IMHO a management and commercial motivation and control tool used on the crews.
If the aicraft cruises at 3oo kts and the distance is 300nm then the timetable time is one hour and if you also give the staff 20 mins turnaround then most crews will try to achieve both. They are unlikly to achieve this and will modify proceedurs in their attempts and thus achieve OVERALL time improvements and importantly at their own risk.
These unreal schedules will promote a feeling of failure and inadequacey among the crews and a feeling of not achieving and ensure that most crews strive harder.
They will also be used in pay negotiations to show under achivement by crews.
These schedules generate stress and then incidents and to management of most airlines this is ok as long as their personel hands are clean, the Caa does nothing positive to stop it, and the insurance companies remain blissfully unaware and inactive.
This was a managers explanation in 1973 regarding the HS 748 multi leg around the uk day/night, and please keep one engine running all the time on the turnround, taxi in out on one etc etc. As a fo I thought it was mad and resigned.
Ps What was the result of all that effort? Treat you good did they?
These management ideas are like thermo nuclear war to airmanship and safety, the only way to win is not to play.
I expect this is all a similar tool/scene to the min fuel one.
Some adrenalin addicts will go for anything the managers dangle in front of them.
Still its your licence and it was easy to get was it not?
Remember the Faa/Caa exists to take it away if you mess up and this part of their job they will do.
------------------
We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
If the aicraft cruises at 3oo kts and the distance is 300nm then the timetable time is one hour and if you also give the staff 20 mins turnaround then most crews will try to achieve both. They are unlikly to achieve this and will modify proceedurs in their attempts and thus achieve OVERALL time improvements and importantly at their own risk.
These unreal schedules will promote a feeling of failure and inadequacey among the crews and a feeling of not achieving and ensure that most crews strive harder.
They will also be used in pay negotiations to show under achivement by crews.
These schedules generate stress and then incidents and to management of most airlines this is ok as long as their personel hands are clean, the Caa does nothing positive to stop it, and the insurance companies remain blissfully unaware and inactive.
This was a managers explanation in 1973 regarding the HS 748 multi leg around the uk day/night, and please keep one engine running all the time on the turnround, taxi in out on one etc etc. As a fo I thought it was mad and resigned.
Ps What was the result of all that effort? Treat you good did they?
These management ideas are like thermo nuclear war to airmanship and safety, the only way to win is not to play.
I expect this is all a similar tool/scene to the min fuel one.
Some adrenalin addicts will go for anything the managers dangle in front of them.
Still its your licence and it was easy to get was it not?
Remember the Faa/Caa exists to take it away if you mess up and this part of their job they will do.
------------------
We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
Guest
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20 mins is achievable, but the UK's strict security check would take at least another 15-20mins if done properly. I would suggest that to check each row (seat backs, behind the cushions, overhead bins and under the seat rows) would take at least a minute a row. Sounds like 20mins could be a bit ambitious.
Guest
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Plus the crew have to clean the aircraft too which adds time......
When I used to dispatch easyJet aircraft at Edinburgh there was a period when it was quite common for them not to make the first turnoff (which 99%of other aircraft can make (737/757/767 etc etc)). Quite a few go arounds were initiated because of this....... Maybe they weren't hammering the brakes for this purpose?
[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited 26 May 2001).]
When I used to dispatch easyJet aircraft at Edinburgh there was a period when it was quite common for them not to make the first turnoff (which 99%of other aircraft can make (737/757/767 etc etc)). Quite a few go arounds were initiated because of this....... Maybe they weren't hammering the brakes for this purpose?
[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited 26 May 2001).]
Guest
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My outfit does 35 minute turnrounds on the 73, which is achievable. Probably 30 minutes can be done if all goes according to plan. But 20 minutes? Do the flight crew actually get out of their seats in that time? I can accept the "it flew in, it will fly out again" philosophy on a short turnaround, but I am still enough of a self-preservationist to want a check against tyre damage, birdstrikes etc, which can occur without the crew's knowledge.
Guest
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hi there
This does assume that not even the slightest snag occurs that could take longer than 20 mins to fix and that there's a spare aircraft on standby,just in case.It also assumes that any snag that does occur will not prevent boarding and can be carried forward(MEL'd)until nighttime.The pressure is on the engineers to be as compliant as the pilots/cabin crew.Perhaps the MEL/CDL is being tweaked to it's elastic limits!?
regards
TDD
This does assume that not even the slightest snag occurs that could take longer than 20 mins to fix and that there's a spare aircraft on standby,just in case.It also assumes that any snag that does occur will not prevent boarding and can be carried forward(MEL'd)until nighttime.The pressure is on the engineers to be as compliant as the pilots/cabin crew.Perhaps the MEL/CDL is being tweaked to it's elastic limits!?
regards
TDD
Guest
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All very interesting speculation.
Fact is easyJet often achieve their short turn rounds AND they do security checks, AND an external check is completed, AND any defects get entered into the Tech Log and they are handled iaw the MEL which as any commercial pilot with 10 minutes basic training knows, can never be less restrictive than the Master MEL.
As for Scotties laymans view to easyjet causing Go Arounds at EDI due to missing the turn off - can't say I've noticed that myself but if someone does miss the turn off, maybe its something to do with having high pax loads.
Fact is easyJet often achieve their short turn rounds AND they do security checks, AND an external check is completed, AND any defects get entered into the Tech Log and they are handled iaw the MEL which as any commercial pilot with 10 minutes basic training knows, can never be less restrictive than the Master MEL.
As for Scotties laymans view to easyjet causing Go Arounds at EDI due to missing the turn off - can't say I've noticed that myself but if someone does miss the turn off, maybe its something to do with having high pax loads.
Guest
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Concluding my laymans point of view.....
Whenever I bring a 737 into EDI (normally a -400, that's the bigger one than easyjets) with a full load, Autobrake 2, thrust reverse (first detent) and Flap 30 are enough to make the turn off. Can't remember any times when someone has had to backtrack.......
Maybe they were trying to save money by using a lower brake setting. Didn't say much for their airmanship though.......
[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited 27 May 2001).]
Whenever I bring a 737 into EDI (normally a -400, that's the bigger one than easyjets) with a full load, Autobrake 2, thrust reverse (first detent) and Flap 30 are enough to make the turn off. Can't remember any times when someone has had to backtrack.......
Maybe they were trying to save money by using a lower brake setting. Didn't say much for their airmanship though.......
[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited 27 May 2001).]
Guest
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What a load of ridiculous speculation!
1. 20 min turnrounds are possible PROVIDING everything fits into place. Often achieved by EZ aat EDI,GLA,BFS with NO reduction in the safety of the operation.
2. Absolutely impossible at LTN as the airport can't cope.
3. The PF for the next sector normally stays on the Flt Deck to prepare things whilst the PNF goes walkies.
4. EZ 737s are operated STRICTLY within the MEL/CDG. I have never even heard a hint of anything different.
5. Saving money by using a lower autobrake setting???????? Not a chance!
1. 20 min turnrounds are possible PROVIDING everything fits into place. Often achieved by EZ aat EDI,GLA,BFS with NO reduction in the safety of the operation.
2. Absolutely impossible at LTN as the airport can't cope.
3. The PF for the next sector normally stays on the Flt Deck to prepare things whilst the PNF goes walkies.
4. EZ 737s are operated STRICTLY within the MEL/CDG. I have never even heard a hint of anything different.
5. Saving money by using a lower autobrake setting???????? Not a chance!
Guest
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Scottie - apologies for the 'layman' remark but you yourself stated your qualification for speaking on the subject as having been a member of the groundstaff at EDI.
For the benefit of readers not familiar with the B737, I'll just clarify something about the use of Reverese Thrust. The Flight Crew Training Manual instruction is to 'move them (the rev levers) aft to the interlock position, and then to the Number 2 detent'. In addition, the Flt Plng and Perf Manual refers to Number 2 detent as being the 'Normal', and Brake Cooling is calculated either from this 'Normal' setting or alternatively with the assumption that no reverse was used at all; there is no interpolation possible.
I can assure readers that easyJet a/c are all operated iaw with these manuals, and as is good airmanship practice, the earliest possible turn off achievable without hammering the brakes is taken. At EDI this usually results in the a/c vacating the runway without going to the end or having to back track.
Scottie - you have chosen to subjectively criticise from afar the professional standards, aircraft operation and airmanship of another airline. If you are a commercial pilot yourself I find that disappointing and perhaps not the mark of a mature professional.
[This message has been edited by Gypsy (edited 27 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Gypsy (edited 27 May 2001).]
For the benefit of readers not familiar with the B737, I'll just clarify something about the use of Reverese Thrust. The Flight Crew Training Manual instruction is to 'move them (the rev levers) aft to the interlock position, and then to the Number 2 detent'. In addition, the Flt Plng and Perf Manual refers to Number 2 detent as being the 'Normal', and Brake Cooling is calculated either from this 'Normal' setting or alternatively with the assumption that no reverse was used at all; there is no interpolation possible.
I can assure readers that easyJet a/c are all operated iaw with these manuals, and as is good airmanship practice, the earliest possible turn off achievable without hammering the brakes is taken. At EDI this usually results in the a/c vacating the runway without going to the end or having to back track.
Scottie - you have chosen to subjectively criticise from afar the professional standards, aircraft operation and airmanship of another airline. If you are a commercial pilot yourself I find that disappointing and perhaps not the mark of a mature professional.
[This message has been edited by Gypsy (edited 27 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Gypsy (edited 27 May 2001).]
