How do you get to fly Warbirds?
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Thank you, WebPilot. Yes, the Balliol was another, and the Merlin was hot. My recollection (it was a long time ago) is that one of the vital actions for take-off was to lock the tail wheel to prevent it from castoring when the power came on.
I offer the thought that to classify aircraft, from the pilot's perspective, as "Warbirds" is to confuse purpose with aeronautics. A Firefly and a Vampire were both warbirds, but there the commonality ends. The flying techniques for the one were not for the other. It was much easier to land a Vampire (T.11 or FB.5) than a Firefly. I thought so, anyway. You could see where you were going, for one thing, and there was no "float" before the final stall for another.
When I see discussion about flying a warbird, and it includes this jet and that piston under the one rubric, I do reflect a little. Hot ships were hot ships back when they were being flown by the few, or even the many, and they are no less hot just because they are 60 years old. I was at a flying club recently for a bit of dual, and just in conversation it came out that the instructor had never heard of a torque stall. I could understand why. The aircraft they fly do not have a whole lot of power. Whatever, you do not want to learn about it on finals.
As a digression re the flying club I was, as we lawyers say, shocked and dismayed to learn that they do not teach the spin or spin recovery at all. Well! Well!
I offer the thought that to classify aircraft, from the pilot's perspective, as "Warbirds" is to confuse purpose with aeronautics. A Firefly and a Vampire were both warbirds, but there the commonality ends. The flying techniques for the one were not for the other. It was much easier to land a Vampire (T.11 or FB.5) than a Firefly. I thought so, anyway. You could see where you were going, for one thing, and there was no "float" before the final stall for another.
When I see discussion about flying a warbird, and it includes this jet and that piston under the one rubric, I do reflect a little. Hot ships were hot ships back when they were being flown by the few, or even the many, and they are no less hot just because they are 60 years old. I was at a flying club recently for a bit of dual, and just in conversation it came out that the instructor had never heard of a torque stall. I could understand why. The aircraft they fly do not have a whole lot of power. Whatever, you do not want to learn about it on finals.
As a digression re the flying club I was, as we lawyers say, shocked and dismayed to learn that they do not teach the spin or spin recovery at all. Well! Well!
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I am based in Herne Bay, near Canterbury. Nearest are Manston, Lydd, Headcorn (already been in contact with the Tiger Club today), and Rochester.
Gloucester is a bit of trek even for that much fun. Now, if anyone knows of something similar (cheap is good, though) going locally.....
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Keep it up!
Gloucester is a bit of trek even for that much fun. Now, if anyone knows of something similar (cheap is good, though) going locally.....
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Keep it up!
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BTW folks,
I'm not expecting to jump into something mega overnight. It taught me a lot about being patient just trying to become a commercial pilot, so I'm prepared to build up gradually. After all, you can't magic up hours overnight (although it seems that some of the F/Os I fly with are a bit creative with their logbooks sometimes).
I'm not expecting to jump into something mega overnight. It taught me a lot about being patient just trying to become a commercial pilot, so I'm prepared to build up gradually. After all, you can't magic up hours overnight (although it seems that some of the F/Os I fly with are a bit creative with their logbooks sometimes).
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Top thread B.E.
Please keep us all updated on how it goes.
I can vouch for the Cub as a good T/wheel;
but its not the hardest. You do have to do it "right" so good foundations are layed.
Best of luck I'd give my right nad to do the same-but my wife has had it already!
Please keep us all updated on how it goes.
I can vouch for the Cub as a good T/wheel;
but its not the hardest. You do have to do it "right" so good foundations are layed.
Best of luck I'd give my right nad to do the same-but my wife has had it already!
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There was a 2-seat P-51 Mustang at Kissimmee, Florida in which you could buy a ride, including low-level (very) and aerobatics. I don't know if it's still there (I was there a couple of weeks ago and didn't actually see it) but I recall a friend of mine paid about $1700 for a long session. Think the Boss would run to that?!!
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Thank you enntwo. My wife says you should not encourage me. However.......then I see Buzzoff and the low flying P.51, so, while this may not really be strictly on point in the present context, it is vaguely on the topic of those who flew them "when they were current". I have a friend, older then I, who did almost all his flying in a Bf 109.
He came back to base one time to find the circuit unexpectedly busy, but OK, he found a space and eased in to the pattern. He was downwind No 3 or so to finals, burbling along, doing his checks, when he suddenly realised that the others were not other Bf 109s, but P.51s out looking for him. Good Golly Miss Mollie! Or maybe: Herrgott!
He dropped out of it to the deck and departed right speedily, pursued by his new chums who also had just realised what he was. Anyway, he made his escape. I'll mention to him that he can take a trip in a low flying P.51.
He came back to base one time to find the circuit unexpectedly busy, but OK, he found a space and eased in to the pattern. He was downwind No 3 or so to finals, burbling along, doing his checks, when he suddenly realised that the others were not other Bf 109s, but P.51s out looking for him. Good Golly Miss Mollie! Or maybe: Herrgott!
He dropped out of it to the deck and departed right speedily, pursued by his new chums who also had just realised what he was. Anyway, he made his escape. I'll mention to him that he can take a trip in a low flying P.51.
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enntwo,
Thanks for the hint, I hadn’t missed Flying Lawyer’s post and although not at all surprised by the fact that nobody will let you fly one unless you have a good and well known pedigree, it was a bit of a discouraging read at that point in the thread. Obviously, I knew when I started the thread that the owners don’t just throw the keys at anyone, let alone someone with no experience on similar machinery, I was just trying to get some ideas on where to start and so far it’s going very well….
The current plan is thus,
I’ve no tailwheel time at all at the moment with aerobatics limited to a few self-taught loops in a C150 aerobat, and teaching spinning in the same whilst instructing (I know spinning’s only optional in the PPL syllabus nowadays, but I always encouraged my students to do a couple as a confidence building measure).
Whilst I figure that an expensive ride in a P51 or even straight into a Harvard would be an instant fix in respect of the fun factor, in the long run it’s not a good use of my limited resources (read – greenbacks) and would simply be frustrating.
A better plan would seem to be to start flying taildraggers initially getting a few hours on a Cub (‘coz their cheap) and moving onto a Tiger Moth (both available at Headcorn, which is close) which many of the British WW2 pilots learned to fly on anyway. Fitting in some tuition in aerobatics somewhere would be useful - maybe in a Chipmunk (Paul Bonhomme, who flew the P47 at Duxford on Sunday, once sat me in a Hurricane and told me it was just like a big Chipmunk!). By now, some time will have passed, and I hope to have negotiated a decent pay rise at work. Who knows, I may even have finished paying for the boss’s new en-suite and block paving driveway too! Anyway, I reckon that buying a share in a Yak or Pitts and developing my skills would be a good plan at this point, hopefully working towards a display licence whilst all the time meeting people and building up contacts.
I know it appears a bit far-fetched when reading the above, but I didn’t know anything about becoming an airline pilot when I started that either! It only took four years.
So keep the info flowing folks, and I’ll keep you informed…whilst buying lottery tickets!
Finally (a bit of self-doubt here), does anyone in the know think that just buying lots of time on a Harvard from the word ‘go’ would actually work in the grand scheme of things?
Thanks for the hint, I hadn’t missed Flying Lawyer’s post and although not at all surprised by the fact that nobody will let you fly one unless you have a good and well known pedigree, it was a bit of a discouraging read at that point in the thread. Obviously, I knew when I started the thread that the owners don’t just throw the keys at anyone, let alone someone with no experience on similar machinery, I was just trying to get some ideas on where to start and so far it’s going very well….
The current plan is thus,
I’ve no tailwheel time at all at the moment with aerobatics limited to a few self-taught loops in a C150 aerobat, and teaching spinning in the same whilst instructing (I know spinning’s only optional in the PPL syllabus nowadays, but I always encouraged my students to do a couple as a confidence building measure).
Whilst I figure that an expensive ride in a P51 or even straight into a Harvard would be an instant fix in respect of the fun factor, in the long run it’s not a good use of my limited resources (read – greenbacks) and would simply be frustrating.
A better plan would seem to be to start flying taildraggers initially getting a few hours on a Cub (‘coz their cheap) and moving onto a Tiger Moth (both available at Headcorn, which is close) which many of the British WW2 pilots learned to fly on anyway. Fitting in some tuition in aerobatics somewhere would be useful - maybe in a Chipmunk (Paul Bonhomme, who flew the P47 at Duxford on Sunday, once sat me in a Hurricane and told me it was just like a big Chipmunk!). By now, some time will have passed, and I hope to have negotiated a decent pay rise at work. Who knows, I may even have finished paying for the boss’s new en-suite and block paving driveway too! Anyway, I reckon that buying a share in a Yak or Pitts and developing my skills would be a good plan at this point, hopefully working towards a display licence whilst all the time meeting people and building up contacts.
I know it appears a bit far-fetched when reading the above, but I didn’t know anything about becoming an airline pilot when I started that either! It only took four years.
So keep the info flowing folks, and I’ll keep you informed…whilst buying lottery tickets!
Finally (a bit of self-doubt here), does anyone in the know think that just buying lots of time on a Harvard from the word ‘go’ would actually work in the grand scheme of things?
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Beaver. I hope I did not come over as negative. I never flew the Harvard and I regret that. Maybe still will. Apart from anything else it makes a great noise in fine pitch. So many people have trained in it for so long and gone on to so much that more praise is superfluous. They tell me it is a bit tricky, too, which is good. As Arnold Schwarzenegger says: "Go foah it!". And for the Spitfire.
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Not at all davaar,
As I said, I know it's a big challenge but I believe that with patience and perseverance, I can rise to it.
I've enjoyed reading your posts and everyone else's...don't stop.
[This message has been edited by beaver eager (edited 14 September 2000).]
As I said, I know it's a big challenge but I believe that with patience and perseverance, I can rise to it.
I've enjoyed reading your posts and everyone else's...don't stop.
[This message has been edited by beaver eager (edited 14 September 2000).]
Guest
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beaver,
One important point made by Flying Lawyer (is the "F" silent?
) is to get some aerobatic time.
Join the BAeA and enter a few contests, not only will you have fun, but you will be better placed for a subsequent application for a Display Authorisation.
Agree about the Yak 52, top fun, much nicer to fly than a T6, but not as relevant for piston "warbird" flying.
One important point made by Flying Lawyer (is the "F" silent?
) is to get some aerobatic time.Join the BAeA and enter a few contests, not only will you have fun, but you will be better placed for a subsequent application for a Display Authorisation.
Agree about the Yak 52, top fun, much nicer to fly than a T6, but not as relevant for piston "warbird" flying.
Guest
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Sorry my earlier post was discouraging but, sadly, it was the harsh truth.
Re: "Does anyone in the know think that just buying lots of time on a Harvard from the word ‘go’ would actually work in the grand scheme of things?"
Given your experience/qualifications, the short answer in your case is: Yes, but it would be an expensive way of doing it. IMHO, the best compromise (which worked for me!)would be:
Chipmunk - for tailwheel training, and experience of a military type which needs to be "flown." (ie Like all good trainers, it is not easy to fly well.)
Stearman - just a few hours to get used to a powerful radial producing significant torque. It will help when you move up to the Harvard. (See Davaar's comments on this topic.) There are few pilots who have never performed at least a partial ground-loop when converting onto a big piston. Just when you think you've got it hacked .....
Harvard - to put everything together in the tried and tested stepping-stone to more powerful warbirds.
I agree that the Yak 52 may, as has been suggested, give you more fun than the Harvard but, with respect, that is not the point. You have a specific goal in mind.
As a former member of the Tiger Club, I feel guilty saying this but, the Tiger Moth is of little or no value for your purposes. The Stampe would be better, and is a great ( and forgiving) aerobatic a/c but again, for your purposes, not as valuable as the other types I've mentioned.
I agree with EnnTwo's comments about the Cub - good easy flying, but of little benefit value except for cheap tailwheel experience if your budget is really tight.
Your instincts about a ride in a P51 are correct. A wonderful experience for any enthusiastic aviator - but it won't help your basic warbird training stage.
Later on, flying with an experienced display pilot will help you to learn how to display an aircraft. I spent many hours flying in the back of a P51 with Stefan Karwowski and then in a P51 and P40 (Kittyhawk) with Mark and Ray Hanna - even during displays. The CAA now prohibits passengers during displays, but positioning flights are sometimes combined with practice.
Good Luck.
EDIT
Just seen Yosser's post above.
No, the 'F' is not silent , very good!
But, is that a typo I see - should the Y be a T?
[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 14 September 2000).]
Re: "Does anyone in the know think that just buying lots of time on a Harvard from the word ‘go’ would actually work in the grand scheme of things?"
Given your experience/qualifications, the short answer in your case is: Yes, but it would be an expensive way of doing it. IMHO, the best compromise (which worked for me!)would be:
Chipmunk - for tailwheel training, and experience of a military type which needs to be "flown." (ie Like all good trainers, it is not easy to fly well.)
Stearman - just a few hours to get used to a powerful radial producing significant torque. It will help when you move up to the Harvard. (See Davaar's comments on this topic.) There are few pilots who have never performed at least a partial ground-loop when converting onto a big piston. Just when you think you've got it hacked .....
Harvard - to put everything together in the tried and tested stepping-stone to more powerful warbirds.
I agree that the Yak 52 may, as has been suggested, give you more fun than the Harvard but, with respect, that is not the point. You have a specific goal in mind.
As a former member of the Tiger Club, I feel guilty saying this but, the Tiger Moth is of little or no value for your purposes. The Stampe would be better, and is a great ( and forgiving) aerobatic a/c but again, for your purposes, not as valuable as the other types I've mentioned.
I agree with EnnTwo's comments about the Cub - good easy flying, but of little benefit value except for cheap tailwheel experience if your budget is really tight.
Your instincts about a ride in a P51 are correct. A wonderful experience for any enthusiastic aviator - but it won't help your basic warbird training stage.
Later on, flying with an experienced display pilot will help you to learn how to display an aircraft. I spent many hours flying in the back of a P51 with Stefan Karwowski and then in a P51 and P40 (Kittyhawk) with Mark and Ray Hanna - even during displays. The CAA now prohibits passengers during displays, but positioning flights are sometimes combined with practice.
Good Luck.
EDIT
Just seen Yosser's post above.
No, the 'F' is not silent , very good!
But, is that a typo I see - should the Y be a T?
[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 14 September 2000).]
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I retired from AAL in Apr 97, and in Nov 97 I gave myself the thrill of a life time: I bought an hour in Crazy Horse, one of two TF-51's at Kissimmee, Florida. The briefing was very thorough, as was the pre-flight check. I taxied out to the runway,(BTW, you unlock the tailwheel by pushing the stick forward), performed the engine run-up. The
instructor pilot made the take-off by advancing the throttle to 40" (3000 RPM) until the tail came off the ground, then advanced to 55"! As soon as the gear retracted he said, "You've got it".
I was amazed at how easy it was to fly. After we cleared the area I started by doing aileron rolls, stalls etc. Then the fun began. The Avon Park Bombing Range was "cold" that day, and we got permission to enter theis airspace. Starting at 10,000', I pushed the nos over to gain 250 kts. With cruise poewr set, 2300 RPM and 36", a steady 3G pull had me over the top at 70kts in a loop, pulling out at 250 kts again. It was then a series of barrel rolls, Cuban eights, and an Immelmann. He said, "Lets go down on the deck."
Starting a 220 kts, I did a Split-S and came out the bottom at 320 kts! Talk about acceleration! Buzzed the runway at 50' and 320! Back to home, where I made the landing!
As you may tell, it was truly the thrill of my lifetime, and though it cost me US$1850, it was worth every penny! I frequently relive the moment by watching the hour-long video of my adventure! EBD
instructor pilot made the take-off by advancing the throttle to 40" (3000 RPM) until the tail came off the ground, then advanced to 55"! As soon as the gear retracted he said, "You've got it".
I was amazed at how easy it was to fly. After we cleared the area I started by doing aileron rolls, stalls etc. Then the fun began. The Avon Park Bombing Range was "cold" that day, and we got permission to enter theis airspace. Starting at 10,000', I pushed the nos over to gain 250 kts. With cruise poewr set, 2300 RPM and 36", a steady 3G pull had me over the top at 70kts in a loop, pulling out at 250 kts again. It was then a series of barrel rolls, Cuban eights, and an Immelmann. He said, "Lets go down on the deck."
Starting a 220 kts, I did a Split-S and came out the bottom at 320 kts! Talk about acceleration! Buzzed the runway at 50' and 320! Back to home, where I made the landing!
As you may tell, it was truly the thrill of my lifetime, and though it cost me US$1850, it was worth every penny! I frequently relive the moment by watching the hour-long video of my adventure! EBD
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An ex squadron colleague of mine told me how he was chopped from pilot training in the Balliol. During a low night go-around the aircraft did an undemanded 360 roll on him as he opened the throttle a little too sharply. He lost his nerve after that.
He told me that others weren't lucky enough to get the full 360 roll and didn't recover before hitting the ground inverted.
He told me that others weren't lucky enough to get the full 360 roll and didn't recover before hitting the ground inverted.
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Yes. I was lucky to have big piston torque demonstrated to me in advance, and not be left to find out the hard way. The chap who gave me the heavy piston conversion was a Commissioned Pilot, RN, who had been shot down in a Seafire by an American bomber he was escorting back from a raid on Korea. He was an excellent pilot from whom I like to think I learned much....certainly he was most careful to show me what torque can do. He valued his skills highly and he was quite forceful that to the RN at the time, and for all I know still, being a pilot was not a "specialisation" but a "subspecialisation" of "executive branch", like say "navigator". He had heard someone dimiss the skill in those terms, and that person was later killed in pilot training. Yes, he said, some subspecialisation.
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Ah ha…here it is! I wrote the following yesterday afternoon. However, Danny had moved the thread out of Rumours and News, but by mistake, he put it somewhere else initially and (to my dismay) I couldn’t find it.
Flying Lawyer
Strangely enough, after making my previous post this morning, I took a very nice motorcycle ride through the country lanes of Kent to visit the Tiger Club at Headcorn. What a co-incidence to get home and read that you used to be a member!
It seems like a nice little set up to me. Although they don’t have any of the Aircraft you mention as part of the Club, I did see both a Stearman and a Harvard in the same hangar where the club aircraft live, so you never know your luck.
What they do have however, is Cubs (which, not unreasonably, you have to start on if you’ve no tailwheel experience), Tiger Moths (including the oldest still flying), and a Stampe, to name but a few. I agree that, none of these are going to propel me magically in the cockpit of a WW2 fighter, but they’re local, reasonably cheap, and will in any case be loads of fun. As I said before, I expect to take a long time to reach my goal - ten years wouldn’t be a problem for me, as long as I’m having fun along the way. I could probably live with myself if I never ever flew a Cub (no disrespect intended Cub owners so keep the hate mail) but I reckon flying the Tiger Moth and the Stampe will gladden my heart for a while. At least they’re from a time (before mine, I might add
) when any type of flying was actually extremely glamorous. I know that I’ll be affected by that kind of feeling, as I still get all tingly when I watch any newsreel from the 30s, 40’s, 50’s or 60’s with aircraft in them. My own feeling is that things started to go downhill a bit in the 70’s when all the British manufacturers couldn’t keep up with the cost of development (I’d actually give Spam Fritter’s left nad for a go in a VC10). I wonder if I’ll ever feel like that about the 146? It’s probably the last all British airliner and I just take it for granted.
So, I’m going to join the Tiger Club and feeling pretty excited about it too. I won’t be doing that much at the beginning but at least I’ll be moving forwards again. Onwards and upwards as they say.
I asked whether flying the Harvard exclusively would be a good plan, and you said that it would be, however, as I’m not in a great hurry, and the budget’s limited at the moment, it’ll have to be plan B as above. I feel really good about the prospect of flying all the stuff the Tiger Club has to offer anyway.
PS. How do you do that shooting smilie? I’m impressed.
Flying Lawyer
Strangely enough, after making my previous post this morning, I took a very nice motorcycle ride through the country lanes of Kent to visit the Tiger Club at Headcorn. What a co-incidence to get home and read that you used to be a member!
It seems like a nice little set up to me. Although they don’t have any of the Aircraft you mention as part of the Club, I did see both a Stearman and a Harvard in the same hangar where the club aircraft live, so you never know your luck.
What they do have however, is Cubs (which, not unreasonably, you have to start on if you’ve no tailwheel experience), Tiger Moths (including the oldest still flying), and a Stampe, to name but a few. I agree that, none of these are going to propel me magically in the cockpit of a WW2 fighter, but they’re local, reasonably cheap, and will in any case be loads of fun. As I said before, I expect to take a long time to reach my goal - ten years wouldn’t be a problem for me, as long as I’m having fun along the way. I could probably live with myself if I never ever flew a Cub (no disrespect intended Cub owners so keep the hate mail) but I reckon flying the Tiger Moth and the Stampe will gladden my heart for a while. At least they’re from a time (before mine, I might add
) when any type of flying was actually extremely glamorous. I know that I’ll be affected by that kind of feeling, as I still get all tingly when I watch any newsreel from the 30s, 40’s, 50’s or 60’s with aircraft in them. My own feeling is that things started to go downhill a bit in the 70’s when all the British manufacturers couldn’t keep up with the cost of development (I’d actually give Spam Fritter’s left nad for a go in a VC10). I wonder if I’ll ever feel like that about the 146? It’s probably the last all British airliner and I just take it for granted.So, I’m going to join the Tiger Club and feeling pretty excited about it too. I won’t be doing that much at the beginning but at least I’ll be moving forwards again. Onwards and upwards as they say.
I asked whether flying the Harvard exclusively would be a good plan, and you said that it would be, however, as I’m not in a great hurry, and the budget’s limited at the moment, it’ll have to be plan B as above. I feel really good about the prospect of flying all the stuff the Tiger Club has to offer anyway.
PS. How do you do that shooting smilie? I’m impressed.
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Enjoyed the friendly banter between Flying Lawyer and Yosser.
I think it's 15:love to F/L at the moment. Difficult to beat a lawyer in a battle of words, Yosser!
F/L's reference to flying in the back of a P51 Mustang in displays with the late Stefan Karwowski brought back memories of watching a true natural pilot in action. One of the best display pilots I've ever seen.
I watched Stefan display a Bearcat at Biggin Hill in the 80's - just after it arrived in the UK. It remains the best display I've ever seen. He was in a different league from the rest of us. Not much to choose, if anything, between him and Ray Hanna.
F/L: Was Stefan killed flying a Pitts?
Our paths crossed occasionally, but we were never on the same Squadron at the same time. I think he went off to Oman after the RAF. I remember him as a really nice, unassuming guy whose outstanding talents were recognised even then.
A tragic loss, whatever the circumstances.
[This message has been edited by enntwo (edited 15 September 2000).]
I think it's 15:love to F/L at the moment. Difficult to beat a lawyer in a battle of words, Yosser!
F/L's reference to flying in the back of a P51 Mustang in displays with the late Stefan Karwowski brought back memories of watching a true natural pilot in action. One of the best display pilots I've ever seen.
I watched Stefan display a Bearcat at Biggin Hill in the 80's - just after it arrived in the UK. It remains the best display I've ever seen. He was in a different league from the rest of us. Not much to choose, if anything, between him and Ray Hanna.
F/L: Was Stefan killed flying a Pitts?
Our paths crossed occasionally, but we were never on the same Squadron at the same time. I think he went off to Oman after the RAF. I remember him as a really nice, unassuming guy whose outstanding talents were recognised even then.
A tragic loss, whatever the circumstances.
[This message has been edited by enntwo (edited 15 September 2000).]