Time to hand those pay rises back?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Luton
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to hand those pay rises back?
It doesn’t seem 5 minutes ago that there was supposed to be a pilot shortage and pilots were justifying here in PPRUNE their inflation busting pay rises. Now that there are hard times ahead how about handing some of those fat wads back to help your airlines stay afloat or is that left to the tax payers to do. 
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: LTN man ]
[ 23 September 2001: Message edited by: LTN man ]
Guest
Posts: n/a
LTNMan - absolutely right! I always said that 'inflation busting' pay increases when you're about to hit a downturn is a remarkably bad idea - but strangely enough, I just got flamed for it! 
It will be interesting to see which of the airlines/unions voluntarily agrees to this; and furthermore, like 411A in another thread, I feel that those at the very top should lead by example.
It will be interesting to see which of the airlines/unions voluntarily agrees to this; and furthermore, like 411A in another thread, I feel that those at the very top should lead by example.
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: 18m N of LGW
Posts: 945
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not to put too finer point on it. I suspect you might well see a round of contract re-appraisals over the coming weeks. I also suspect that it will include management all the way the top too.
Still, it's better than getting shunted.
Still, it's better than getting shunted.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LTN, rather a sad attempt at 'gloating' over a jealousy that you are not a pilot? Perhaps if this isn't so, precisely what are you doing in this Forum then, along with Guvnerd who of course likes banging a drum about overpaid American pilots. Be the first member of his private bulletin board, and you can both witter away to each other about nasty overpaid pilots, you sad people! In the meantime, read the notice at the start- we follow this board to discuss NEWS, not discuss your daft ideas!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Notso Fantastic, dear boy, haven't you learnt the first rule of debate? Attack the issues if you disagree; not the individuals! Rule two, of course, is that if you haven't got anything constructive to say - keep it zipped. You've also been told, on multiple occasions, that this forum is for anyone with an interest in aviation. As you seem to have a serious memory problem, are you sure you're in a fit medical state to be allegedly piloting 747s for BA? 
IFR - I suspect you're right, mate - though as I said earlier it will be interesting to see if any of these renegotiations are volunteered!
Of course, what a lot of people don't realise is that at the very top of the pile senior management pay is a combination of cash (usually relatively small) benefits (though with the recent revisions to the UK tax system at least those are being dropped as you pay a lot of money for them!) and the first prize, which are share options. So when you see a report that XYZ made £100 gigabucks last year, s/he wasn't paid that in cash but rather that's the value of the share options. However, with most airline share values having gone down the toilet recently, I suspect that very few people will be exercising their options this year!
IFR - I suspect you're right, mate - though as I said earlier it will be interesting to see if any of these renegotiations are volunteered!
Of course, what a lot of people don't realise is that at the very top of the pile senior management pay is a combination of cash (usually relatively small) benefits (though with the recent revisions to the UK tax system at least those are being dropped as you pay a lot of money for them!) and the first prize, which are share options. So when you see a report that XYZ made £100 gigabucks last year, s/he wasn't paid that in cash but rather that's the value of the share options. However, with most airline share values having gone down the toilet recently, I suspect that very few people will be exercising their options this year!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK you want facts to discuss, well here are some. Why does this Forum attract weirdos? We have you, we have LTNman, we have 411A, and we have that other weirdo Bus 411 'the pilots friend'. Give you lot something to crow about and boy, there you all are sitting on a telegraph line crowing away. And now you think pilots have taken it on the chin. Well, the world will recover without your help, and things will be back to normal, so please take your crowing elsewhere! The aviation community doesn't need you lot, particularly you. You have a most unhealthy obsession with a PILOTS network. By all means drop in, but read more than post. One has to ask- who do you think you are telling us all what's wrong and what to do about all aspects of aviation?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Very simple, dear boy. Unlike you, 411A and I plus a few others on here like IFR have actually run airlines and therefore we tend to have a much better view of the 'big picture' than you do. And events have proven us right, haven't they? Once you've run a few airlines yourself, then perhaps you'd also know this but until then, just concern yourself with the Telegraph crossword as you pilot your 747 from A to B.
I know you don't want to hear it, but there's an awful lot more to an airline than just the pilots - and you'd do well to remember it.
By the way, what did I just say to you earlier about attacking issues rather than individuals?
I know you don't want to hear it, but there's an awful lot more to an airline than just the pilots - and you'd do well to remember it.
By the way, what did I just say to you earlier about attacking issues rather than individuals?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ROFL!
I think the keywords here are HAVE RUN. Oh, how the mighty have fallen! They are now in the business of making 3000 posts, without having said anything positive. Of course, sooner or later, you have to get something right.
I think the keywords here are HAVE RUN. Oh, how the mighty have fallen! They are now in the business of making 3000 posts, without having said anything positive. Of course, sooner or later, you have to get something right.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Notso
Im sorry, but you realy need to take those blinkers off and see the wider world.
Pilots, and no Im not one and I do like to contribute on these forums, are a tiny piece in the aviation jigsaw and the other jobs, from loaders (no not one of them either) to ATC (no), are all needed if the punters are going to return and fly with your airline again. It is after all, them that pay all of our wages.
Keep yourself tucked up in the pointed end and let others try to entise the pax back again.
Im sorry, but you realy need to take those blinkers off and see the wider world.
Pilots, and no Im not one and I do like to contribute on these forums, are a tiny piece in the aviation jigsaw and the other jobs, from loaders (no not one of them either) to ATC (no), are all needed if the punters are going to return and fly with your airline again. It is after all, them that pay all of our wages.
Keep yourself tucked up in the pointed end and let others try to entise the pax back again.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't Panic
I've no doubt the 'progressive' airlines of today will respond by sacking non-essential personnel like pilots and engineers and giving huge payrises to the real core of the industry.......the Feng Shui managers and the HR teams to tell us where well went wrong!
I've no doubt the 'progressive' airlines of today will respond by sacking non-essential personnel like pilots and engineers and giving huge payrises to the real core of the industry.......the Feng Shui managers and the HR teams to tell us where well went wrong!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: US
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlapsOne--
You, sir, have hit the nail on the head. The HR types will enjoy the sadism of watching the pilots and other workers getting whacked, while they (HR) stick their noses in more worthless tomes on pop-psychology manangement trends.
Leaving all the usual pilot/union/labor etc. issues aside, we must admit that many non-pilots harbor a seething jealosy towards pilots, and are gloating at the current crisis (and it is a crisis) in the industry. That's just the way it is; envy is the most universal of emotions, I'm convinced.
I just hope that the organic increase in demand we've seen for air service in the past few years re-asserts itself sooner rather than later. In the meantime, we'll have to take a lot of guff from the cubicle-borne creampuffs, and the soft little homebody men who long ago watched their ambitions perish, and can be contented by wishing ill on aviators.
You, sir, have hit the nail on the head. The HR types will enjoy the sadism of watching the pilots and other workers getting whacked, while they (HR) stick their noses in more worthless tomes on pop-psychology manangement trends.
Leaving all the usual pilot/union/labor etc. issues aside, we must admit that many non-pilots harbor a seething jealosy towards pilots, and are gloating at the current crisis (and it is a crisis) in the industry. That's just the way it is; envy is the most universal of emotions, I'm convinced.
I just hope that the organic increase in demand we've seen for air service in the past few years re-asserts itself sooner rather than later. In the meantime, we'll have to take a lot of guff from the cubicle-borne creampuffs, and the soft little homebody men who long ago watched their ambitions perish, and can be contented by wishing ill on aviators.
Guest
Posts: n/a
FlapsOne/Vsf, I don't think that's the case, either. After all, if the airlines go bust because there are no pilots coz there are no aircraft flying coz there are no pax, then that does tend to put "the cubicle-borne creampuffs" on the line as well!
The reality is as follows:
1) There will continue to be an airline industry.
2) That airline industry will be a lot slimmer and more cautious than the previous one.
3) Pay and benefits will take a serious pruning all round and are very unlikely to be restored to the levels seen at some airlines. 'Reasonable' rather than 'excessive' pay for all levels will be the bon mot.
4) Airlines - and pilots - will be taking a long and hard look at the seniority system, which is seriously outdated and more importantly is a barrier to movement by pilots as much as anything else.
5) There was never - and is even less so now - a 'pilot shortage'. A shortage of people qualified on specific types, yes - but overall shortage - no way! This glut of pilots will remain for a considerable time.
6) Startups will be getting ultra cheap crews and aircraft!
The reality is as follows:
1) There will continue to be an airline industry.
2) That airline industry will be a lot slimmer and more cautious than the previous one.
3) Pay and benefits will take a serious pruning all round and are very unlikely to be restored to the levels seen at some airlines. 'Reasonable' rather than 'excessive' pay for all levels will be the bon mot.
4) Airlines - and pilots - will be taking a long and hard look at the seniority system, which is seriously outdated and more importantly is a barrier to movement by pilots as much as anything else.
5) There was never - and is even less so now - a 'pilot shortage'. A shortage of people qualified on specific types, yes - but overall shortage - no way! This glut of pilots will remain for a considerable time.
6) Startups will be getting ultra cheap crews and aircraft!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Guvnor
I am very much a reader, rather than a poster, however in the former capacity, I have to confess to being amazed at the volume of posts you appear to clock up.
I admit I know virtually nothing about you, so I am intrigued to know when you most recently "ran" an airline, as you put it in an earlier post.
However do you manage to hold down a full-time job in the aviation industry, and still spend so much time on the internet?
Nothing personal (honest) only curious.
I am very much a reader, rather than a poster, however in the former capacity, I have to confess to being amazed at the volume of posts you appear to clock up.
I admit I know virtually nothing about you, so I am intrigued to know when you most recently "ran" an airline, as you put it in an earlier post.
However do you manage to hold down a full-time job in the aviation industry, and still spend so much time on the internet?
Nothing personal (honest) only curious.
