Should flightdecks be kept locked?
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Should flightdecks be kept locked?
Following the horrific events in the recent terrosism in America, I cant help but feel that this should surely be the final warning that something drastic has to happen in order to safeguard against the hijacking of aircraft. When an aircraft can be turned into a 100 tonne missile is the answer to simply dissallow all access to the flightdeck and install video cameras at the door so as the pilots are able to see any activity outside the door?
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Yeah, right. That'll sort the bastards. Imagine the scene: international terrorist, intent on bringing the Western world to its knees. Having secreted himself and colleagues through the intracacies of airport security at maybe three or four international airports, arrived on the aeroplane prepared to die for his cause, meets locked flight deck door: "Right. That's it lads! Foiled this time. Best we try an airline that doesn't use such sophisticated techniques against us. Back to the drawing board. Same time next Tuesday?"
Asshole! Try a better idea.
Asshole! Try a better idea.
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Flight deck crew might be safe behind their Fort Knox door, but what about CC? If hijackers threaten CC members, will FD have the will to keep door locked?
Anyway, isn't locked FD mandated by FAA these days? Or was that just a proposal?
Anyway, isn't locked FD mandated by FAA these days? Or was that just a proposal?
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I agree with Scroggs.
This is an old discussion we had this spring if my memory doesn’t fail me as it usually does…
I think that there is a lot more to gain from improving ground security procedures than mounting a cevlar-reinforced-super-titanium door up font.
It doesn’t really take much to be hired to mash bags for instance…
This is an old discussion we had this spring if my memory doesn’t fail me as it usually does…
I think that there is a lot more to gain from improving ground security procedures than mounting a cevlar-reinforced-super-titanium door up font.
It doesn’t really take much to be hired to mash bags for instance…
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The weapons used in these 4 hijackings would have gone through security anywhere in the world. Indeed as I recall from my UK training a knife up to 4 inches long is completely legal as long as you don't try to hide it.
The answer is definately to lock the door and armor the door in the short term. Now that everyone realizes what will happen if you let a hijacker in the cockpit, the thought of your cc being killed is extremely unpleasent, but less so than watching your aircraft fly into the tower of london...
In the longer term, access to the cockpit should ONLY be from outside the pressure vessel of the aircraft. Give the Cockpit its own lav, coffee maker and its own outside door and make it impossible to access the cabin. There is nothing to be gained from passenger access to the cabin.
Cheers
Wino
The answer is definately to lock the door and armor the door in the short term. Now that everyone realizes what will happen if you let a hijacker in the cockpit, the thought of your cc being killed is extremely unpleasent, but less so than watching your aircraft fly into the tower of london...
In the longer term, access to the cockpit should ONLY be from outside the pressure vessel of the aircraft. Give the Cockpit its own lav, coffee maker and its own outside door and make it impossible to access the cabin. There is nothing to be gained from passenger access to the cabin.
Cheers
Wino
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Weren't the cockpit doors locked on these flights and it doesn't seem to have made a damn bit of difference. Sadly the worst thing the pilots could have done was unlocked those doors even though the FA's were being stabbed because they lost their only protection between for themselves, the nerve centre of the aircraft and the hijackers. However sad, the loss of a few lifes to save many regardless of the fact they could never have guessed the hijackers intentions would have been a far better scenario. In my opinion in a hijack situation 'The doors should have remained locked' no matter whatever the temptation or blackmail used to open them.
As far carrying a knife on board I've done it myself for legitimate reasons no probs once I gave security a plausible explanation. Not sure if it's under 4 inches or 6 inches thats it's legal but since it can be used as a lethal weapon by wrong intentioned people I feel unless it's carried in the hold it should not be allowed on board.
As for the crap security procedures on the ground the yanks left themselves wide open. American airlines employ their own security personnel. They open it up for bidding & usually employ the lowest bidder, with low paid undermoralised staff who leave quickly as the joke goes 'for higher paid jobs in McDonalds & Burgerking. No point in having stringent policies on international airtravel when their domestic policies on airtravel were a joke, Clinton tried to change that but no, the airlines insisted it would affect mobility.
The whole scenario is sad. I enjoy cockpit visits, but it looks like for the greater good the cockpit is set to become a no-go area & some kind of shield such as a locked door policy is going to need to become mandatory to protect aircrews and aircraft.
Lets hope alot of innocent people don't suffer in Americas bid for revenge and in it's endavour to show it's might & superpower status.
Emerald
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]
As far carrying a knife on board I've done it myself for legitimate reasons no probs once I gave security a plausible explanation. Not sure if it's under 4 inches or 6 inches thats it's legal but since it can be used as a lethal weapon by wrong intentioned people I feel unless it's carried in the hold it should not be allowed on board.
As for the crap security procedures on the ground the yanks left themselves wide open. American airlines employ their own security personnel. They open it up for bidding & usually employ the lowest bidder, with low paid undermoralised staff who leave quickly as the joke goes 'for higher paid jobs in McDonalds & Burgerking. No point in having stringent policies on international airtravel when their domestic policies on airtravel were a joke, Clinton tried to change that but no, the airlines insisted it would affect mobility.
The whole scenario is sad. I enjoy cockpit visits, but it looks like for the greater good the cockpit is set to become a no-go area & some kind of shield such as a locked door policy is going to need to become mandatory to protect aircrews and aircraft.
Lets hope alot of innocent people don't suffer in Americas bid for revenge and in it's endavour to show it's might & superpower status.
Emerald
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Celtic Emerald ]
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Flight Deck doors may well be kept closed. They usually are in flight anyway. Locked? Well the airlines can do that of course, but FD doors are relatively easy to open even if locked, and to a determined terrorist it would present no problem at all.
The ramifications of this terrible act of terrorism will be be with us for some time, but as in the past it always returns to a more relaxed normality.
PPRuNe Pop
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[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Pop ]
The ramifications of this terrible act of terrorism will be be with us for some time, but as in the past it always returns to a more relaxed normality.
PPRuNe Pop
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[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Pop ]
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Im not sure either way if installing fortress like flight deck doors is the way forward here.
I would have thought a better idea would be to have a number (possibly as a ratio to seats fitted or passengers booked) of armed security personnel on board every flight as a deterrent and means of counter action to any terrorist threat. This would also solve the problem of air rage at a stroke.
As to who should pay for this, everyone should ie the tax payer. This type of terrorism is not just the airline's problem but everyone's problem to an equal extent. Its quite conceivable that there were people in the WTC who had never boarded an aircraft but suffered just as much as the poor passengers on board those aircraft.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: GearUp CheerUp ]
I would have thought a better idea would be to have a number (possibly as a ratio to seats fitted or passengers booked) of armed security personnel on board every flight as a deterrent and means of counter action to any terrorist threat. This would also solve the problem of air rage at a stroke.
As to who should pay for this, everyone should ie the tax payer. This type of terrorism is not just the airline's problem but everyone's problem to an equal extent. Its quite conceivable that there were people in the WTC who had never boarded an aircraft but suffered just as much as the poor passengers on board those aircraft.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: GearUp CheerUp ]
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Flight deck doors are always kept locked inflight on American carriers, this is FAA mandated.
A determined hijacker would find a locked door no obstacle due to its design.
The answer pletharoe (if there is an answer) is to identify any potential threat before it gets close to the airplane. Unfortunately I think its a case of if the person/persons are resourceful enough there can never be a 100% guarantee.
Asshole! Try a better idea
Excellent moderation Scroggs
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: SOHCAHTOA ]
A determined hijacker would find a locked door no obstacle due to its design.
The answer pletharoe (if there is an answer) is to identify any potential threat before it gets close to the airplane. Unfortunately I think its a case of if the person/persons are resourceful enough there can never be a 100% guarantee.
Asshole! Try a better idea
Excellent moderation Scroggs
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: SOHCAHTOA ]
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Two comments in response to this thread. Firstly those guys up front probably opened their cockpit doors because they thought they were going to land at another airport where negotations would be conducted - not flown into a building.
Secondly if you do completely seperate the cockpit what about other safety issues - in the last 12 months a 757 co-pilot was incapacitated by a lightning strike - what if it had been both flight crew? There are also instances of crews being overcome by fumes. Also how will crews evacuate, view engines etc from the cabin?
Secondly if you do completely seperate the cockpit what about other safety issues - in the last 12 months a 757 co-pilot was incapacitated by a lightning strike - what if it had been both flight crew? There are also instances of crews being overcome by fumes. Also how will crews evacuate, view engines etc from the cabin?
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Fen boy shows that complete separation is not desirable in several scenarios.
The before mentioned 'cevlar-reinforced-super-titanium door' could be a compromise.
However in incapacitation scenarios cabin crew may need to enter.
So they would probably have a key.
And the aggressor could probably obtain that key.
So does it really matter whether our present door is wide-open or locked ?
With the ability of today's aggressor it seems not.
Armed guards is a possibility.
A 'quick draw' armed cockpit crewmember might also hold them back.
Prevention is better, but might be an utopia.
To start the discussion is probably a good idea.
The before mentioned 'cevlar-reinforced-super-titanium door' could be a compromise.
However in incapacitation scenarios cabin crew may need to enter.
So they would probably have a key.
And the aggressor could probably obtain that key.
So does it really matter whether our present door is wide-open or locked ?
With the ability of today's aggressor it seems not.
Armed guards is a possibility.
A 'quick draw' armed cockpit crewmember might also hold them back.
Prevention is better, but might be an utopia.
To start the discussion is probably a good idea.
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Well the "'cevlar-reinforced-super-titanium door" was a joke and not a serious suggestion as I'm sure you all understood 
The facts are that not even a military bunker is impenetrable, and they don't have to worry about weight and so on. I think that the answer as traveler wrote is that "Prevention is better".
There is always a way around problems, it just takes more time and devotion to beat the tough ones... for good and for bad
Cheers
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: Knold ]
The facts are that not even a military bunker is impenetrable, and they don't have to worry about weight and so on. I think that the answer as traveler wrote is that "Prevention is better".
There is always a way around problems, it just takes more time and devotion to beat the tough ones... for good and for bad
Cheers
[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: Knold ]
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Steel bars like a prison would solve the blow-out-panel problem.
It could allow meals to come through.
And you can identify the person on the other side.
Still ... incapacitation .. a key.
Do we really wanna go that route tho ?
KLM ordered the door closed in-flight from now on.
Will it help, or does the article sound nice in the paper ?
It could allow meals to come through.
And you can identify the person on the other side.
Still ... incapacitation .. a key.
Do we really wanna go that route tho ?
KLM ordered the door closed in-flight from now on.
Will it help, or does the article sound nice in the paper ?
