Spyplane : For home consumption only

[KIFIS]

Distinguished Flying Cross for the captain and heroism awards for the rest (including those down the back ) . Amazing, truly amazing !! Consistent though, especially when viewed alongside the recently disclosed circumstances surrounding the Johnson award.

KIFIS

[ 08 July 2001: Message edited by: KIFIS ]

[Thud_and_Blunder]

KIFIS,

...And your point is - what, exactly?

[Lewis]

[TowerDog]

Those guys sure deserve a medal for getting the airplane down in one piece after the Chinese hit 'em.

Some guys refuse to see reality and accuse the US plane of what? Shooting down the fighter?
Amazing, truly amazing.

[Mycroft]

Don't forget they're all American - get a medal for getting up in the morning (ever tried to count an american General/Admirals medals?)

[TowerDog]

Well Mycroft:

I agree and disagree:

I was given 2 "medals" here in the US that I certainly did not "deserve" (I was in the wrong place at the right time.)
And yes, there is a bit of inflation in the medal market.

Yet, the crew on that P-3 in China sure deserved their medals.
From this pilots standpoint, I take my hat off to the airmanship and skill that saved the day.

Don't know what your sour grapes is all about, but I doubt you could have done any better...?

[KIFIS]

TowerDog ( and others )

I commend your loyalty however there are others who are not of your persuasion (me) who can’t understand why your leaders hand out commendations so freely. Every civilian and military pilot of large aeroplanes is capable of recovery from an unusual attitude. The same pilot is also capable of landing at any suitable airfield that happens to be nearby. Not all would opt to nurse a damaged command 600nm across open water to get back home. The man who would certainly deserves the highest commendation. If you care to think about this then I’m sure you will understand why I refer to “ home consumption”.

KIFIS

[Wino]

Gee Kifis, you must just be pissed off because they survived being rammed by that chinese pilot.

Any pilot could survive the unusual attitude? I think not, with only a little of the damage to that aircraft, a 757 was stalled into the water when some of the static ports (not all) of them were taped over coming out of the dominican republic a couple of years back. And that aircraft started from level flight. 100s died over just the loss of some of the static ports.

This crew had engines out, flap damage, no pito static system terrible vibrations from unbalanced props and who knows what else! They are heros and demonstrated EXCELLENT airmanship whether you choose to believe it or not.

As to over inflation of medals, that is another issue. In this case they are well deserved.

Cheers
Wino

[Zeke]

Wino

RE the Aeroperu 603 Boeing 757 crashed in 1996. Investigators found that all of the aircraft's static ports were taped over, rendering the aircraft's air data systems inoperative. Mechanics taped the ports prior to washing the airplane and failed to remove the tape prior to flight, and the crew missed seeing the tape during pre-flight.

The aircraft did not stall, it hit the water at 260 kts, are you a jurno ?

01:10:17 (30:00)
Cabin
(ALARM OF MECHANICAL VOICE "TOO LOW TERRAIN" REMAINS UNTIL THE END OF RECORDING)

01:10:21 (30:04)
Cabin
(SOUND SIMILAR TO CAUTION ALARM)

01:10:18 (30:01)
ATC Lima
YES, YOU KEEP NINE SEVEN HUNDRED ACCORDING TO PRESENTATION, SIR

01:10:21 (30:04)
Cabin
(SOUND SIMILAR TO CAUTION ALARM)

01:10:21 (30:04)
Copilot to ATC
NINE SEVEN HUNDRED?

01:10:26 (30:09)
ATC Lima
YES, CORRECT. WHAT IS THE INDICATED ALTITUDE ON BOARD? HAVE YOU ANY VISUAL REFERENCE?

01:10:29 (30:12)
Copilot to ATC
NINE SEVEN HUNDRED BUT IT INDICATES TOO LOW TERRAIN... ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU HAVE US ON THE RADAR AT 50 MILES?

01:10:38 (30:21)
Pilot
HEY, LOOK... WITH 370 WE HAVE... HAVE...
01:10:46 (30:29)
Copilot
HAVE WHAT? 370 OF WHAT?

01:10:53 (30:36)
Copilot
DO WE LOWER THE GEAR?

01:10:54 (30:37)
ATC Lima
AEROPERU 603, LIMA

01:10:55 (30:38)
Pilot
BUT, WHAT DO WE DO WITH THE GEAR? DON'T KNOW... THAT

01:10:57 (30:40)
Cabin
(SOUND OF IMPACT)

01:10:58 (30:41)
Cabin
(SOUND SIMILAR TO CAUTION ALARM)

01:10:59 (30:42)
Copilot to ATC
WE ARE IMPACTING WATER!!

01:11:01 (30:44)
Copilot
PULL IT UP!!

01:11:02 (30:45)
ATC Lima
GO UP, GO UP IF IT INDICATES PULL UP

01:11:05 (30:48)
Pilot
I HAVE IT, I HAVE IT!

01:11:07 (30:50)
Cabin
(MECHANICAL VOICE SOUND "TOO LOW TERRAIN" STOPS)

01:11:12 (30:55)
Pilot
WE ARE GOING TO INVERT! (UPSIDE DOWN.)

01:11:13 (30:56)
Cabin
(SOUND SIMILAR TO CAUTION ALARM)

01:11:14 (30:57)
Cabin
(SOUND OF MECHANICAL VOICE "WHOOP... WHOOP... PU..."

01:11:16 (30:59)
Cabin
(SOUND OF IMPACT)
(A last impact noise is heard. Altimeters are indicating 9.700 feet)

END OF TRANSCRIPTION

According to FDR, aircraft was descending at a 10 degrees angle, 260 knots when impacts water for the first time with left wing and engine. After the impact the aircraft climbs some 200 feet, inverts and falls again sinking into the sea.

[Wino]

As I recall, the standby was not taped over, or that may have been a similar accident in a similar timeframe. There was another one in South America in the same time frame, maybe I am confusing them.

But the point is the same. The P-3 has no standby system. If this airline crew couldn't fly the aircraft without their system, why shouldn't the p-3 crew be praised?

And no, I am not a jurno. I am a pilot, and therefore have great respect for the p-3 crew.

Cheers
Wino

[bearcat88]

KIFIS,
When all this started you spent way too much time ragging on the Americans in another forum and now, when you really should have moved on to something more productive in your life ... here you are again. Maybe the U.S. does give out too many medals. Maybe some militaries don't give out enough. It really doesn't matter. That P3 flightdeck did an awesome job of recovering a badly bent airplane and deserve plenty of credit for it all.
88

[ 12 July 2001: Message edited by: bearcat88 ]

[Deadleg]

BTW, on a slightly different thread, did anyone see that the Chinese have sent the US an invoice(don't remember the exact amount-I saw this on BBC Ceefax a few days ago)for handling charges. A Pentagon official said they were analysing the bill for legitimate charges(...OK who ordered the Peking Duck...no thats duck, duck... oh, very funny admiral)
Apologies if this has already been covered!

[Zeke]

Wino,

The other B757 accident around the same time wasat Cali which was a result of the crew selecting an incorrect navaid ("R" NDB) and they had a CFIT accident.

Both of these accident were listed as CFIT accidents.

40 seconds prior to impact of the Aeroperu B757, Lima ATC confirmed to the crew that they were receiving an transponder altitude readout of 9700 feet, whilst at the same time the GPWS was giving a "Too Low Terrain" warning (altitude information from RADALT).

Investigators concluded that all ports were covered up for the aircraft wash prior to flight.

It is clear that this represents a common failure mode of all three pitot-static systems: the backups suffer the same failure as the primary systems. It should also be clear that this failure mode is not computer-related: neither the design nor the operation of the LADC or RADC or any other computer contributed to this particular way of failing to deliver reliable air data.

The crew kept the aircraft airborne for 29 minutes without the aid of an altimiter, airspeed indicator or the air data computers.

This is a photo of part of the wreckage recovered showing the tape over the static ports.

[Wino]

I am aware of cali and that is most certainly not what I am referring to.

Maybe you didn't go back far enough on the transcript. One airspeed guage was working on takeoff. the other 2 had been gotten to by mud daubers I think. Anyway after takeoff the other 2 airspeed guages started to increase speed with altitude (as they will with a plugged static port) Soon they got the overspeed warning. The captain then ignored the functioning guage and pulled the aircraft up to try and silence the overspeed (that is never gonna work in this condition) Aircraft hits water with control never restored.

Cheers
Wino

[boofhead]

The first 757 accident was in Feb 1996 and was a Birgenair flight that went down after takeoff in the Dominican Republic. The captain's ASI was out of action during the takeoff roll but they continued and lost control soon after, killing 189.

The second was Aeroperu out of Peru in October 1996 and it went down because the statics were all taped up, killing 70.

Both are symptoms of the trend toward automatic complacency in that pilots nowadays do not know how to fly (generalisation).

Both airplanes had other sources of speed indication, one had lost only one out of the five available, and the other lost three. Neither accident was inevitable.

The US P3 pilot did a good job recovering and flying the airplane, but it is hardly heroic. After all he was just trying to save his own ass. The definition of a hero is one who gives, or is prepared to give, his own life in order to save the life of someone else. This was not such a case.
They are confusing skill and heroism.

However the US needs heroes, and if they want to present this crew as such, that is their business.

[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: boofhead ]

[Zeke]

Boof,

China Southern had a B757 accident in 1990 with fatalities (during taxi), American Airlines Cali (CFIT) was December 95.
Birgenair, Feb 96, AeroPeru Oct 96, Britannia '99

The P3 guys did do a great job, how many peices did the aircraft get shipped back in ?