The captain's boss
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The captain's boss
Hopefully this isn't too daft a question.
If you're a captain, who is your boss? Obviously while on the aircraft, it's you, but who do the BA 747 captains - for example - answer to?
Is it done by fleet, by base, just one person in the airline? I'd be interested to know.
If you're a captain, who is your boss? Obviously while on the aircraft, it's you, but who do the BA 747 captains - for example - answer to?
Is it done by fleet, by base, just one person in the airline? I'd be interested to know.
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Captain reports to Fleet Captain who reports to Base Captain who reports to Fleet manager who reports to Flight Operations Director who reports to the Board. Or variations on that theme.
On the aeroplane, there is nobody senior to the Captain, though some would like to think so! But the Captain should still obey directions from the company or explain his reasons for not doing so, and at all times obey the directions in the Flight Crew Orders book, or have an extremely good reason not to! And operate in accordance with it at all times.
On the aeroplane, there is nobody senior to the Captain, though some would like to think so! But the Captain should still obey directions from the company or explain his reasons for not doing so, and at all times obey the directions in the Flight Crew Orders book, or have an extremely good reason not to! And operate in accordance with it at all times.
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Rainboe,
Would the Fleet Captain and Base Captain both be current 'operational' pilots themselves or is it dependant on the Company? (The answer to my next point is dependant on the answer to this question).
You mention that the Captain is the most senior person on the aircraft - are there ever instances where a Captain would need to refer back to 'The Company' during a flight for guidance (if yes, what if the Fleet Captain and Base Captain were in-flight themselves on other aircraft - who would make a decision?).
Am I looking into this too much and ignoring the fact that as a B747 Captain (for example) these are generally the people with longest service/experience etc. and as such they would be expected to know what to do?
Thanks in advance.
Would the Fleet Captain and Base Captain both be current 'operational' pilots themselves or is it dependant on the Company? (The answer to my next point is dependant on the answer to this question).
You mention that the Captain is the most senior person on the aircraft - are there ever instances where a Captain would need to refer back to 'The Company' during a flight for guidance (if yes, what if the Fleet Captain and Base Captain were in-flight themselves on other aircraft - who would make a decision?).
Am I looking into this too much and ignoring the fact that as a B747 Captain (for example) these are generally the people with longest service/experience etc. and as such they would be expected to know what to do?
Thanks in advance.
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Yes, they would be operational pilots, but not flying very much. Often just once a month to keep their 'recency' valid. Being management pilots, they also tend to do one very unfortunate thing! When Royal Flights or ultra VIP flights come up- they nobble them for themselves. Thus you actually have the unfortunate occurence of maybe the fleet's most inexperienced pilot flying HM rather than a far better pilot for her who flies that route every month and flies every few days. They are NOT the people with longest service/experience, in fact sometimes they can be very junior. It is not unknown for some of them to be 'refugees' from regular line seniority work systems. Working in the offices is not that attractive an option when you have a nice shiny 747 to play with. Their job is usually administrative- promulgating Fleet News/Notices/admin/working out crew numbers. Ops and Crewing do all the day to day operational stuff.
In immediate control of all flights is the Ops department who work out crew duty hours, weather disruptions etc and communicate to the crew involved. The Duty Captains always leave regular ops and disruptions to them. For example- where's best to divert to, trip disruptions, advice on tech problems (with Engineering dept). The crew's job is to deliver the aeroplane where required safely and legally at minimal cost. So you do have a significant back up in the air and can communicateby HF radio or satellite phone (if you have one) or ACARs. However we like to keep such communication to a minimum and be left to do the job.
In immediate control of all flights is the Ops department who work out crew duty hours, weather disruptions etc and communicate to the crew involved. The Duty Captains always leave regular ops and disruptions to them. For example- where's best to divert to, trip disruptions, advice on tech problems (with Engineering dept). The crew's job is to deliver the aeroplane where required safely and legally at minimal cost. So you do have a significant back up in the air and can communicateby HF radio or satellite phone (if you have one) or ACARs. However we like to keep such communication to a minimum and be left to do the job.
Last edited by Rainboe; 16th Sep 2008 at 09:03.
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Who runs the world at Saturday night?
Or an airline?
When a captain is aboard a plane in flight, BUT has been asleep for hours, plans on being asleep for hours and is naked between the sheets in crew rest, who then is in command - that captain, or whatever pilot actually is awake, physically in cockpit and sitting in the left seat? And does a pilot sitting in left seat while a captain is in crew rest have to be a captain as well? Does a three pilot crew have to be 2 captains and 1 first officer?
A plane flies for 19 or so hours at most, but an airline never lands. There are always some planes in flight at far ends of the globe. Someone on ground has to give advice on diversions, consult engineers, consult with physicians, contact foreign states and airports for overflight and landing permits, arrange for visas, hotel accommodations, medical care... make decisions on behalf of the airline which may cost or save large sums of money for the airline, and lives of some or many people.
Who are awake at night in an airline? Cannot be one person, precisely because they need sleep, days off, vacations etc. A number of people must be involved... but in the morning when people get up, read news headlines and go on their business, are the people awake at night treated as underlings and menials? Or are they fully respected?
Or an airline?
When a captain is aboard a plane in flight, BUT has been asleep for hours, plans on being asleep for hours and is naked between the sheets in crew rest, who then is in command - that captain, or whatever pilot actually is awake, physically in cockpit and sitting in the left seat? And does a pilot sitting in left seat while a captain is in crew rest have to be a captain as well? Does a three pilot crew have to be 2 captains and 1 first officer?
A plane flies for 19 or so hours at most, but an airline never lands. There are always some planes in flight at far ends of the globe. Someone on ground has to give advice on diversions, consult engineers, consult with physicians, contact foreign states and airports for overflight and landing permits, arrange for visas, hotel accommodations, medical care... make decisions on behalf of the airline which may cost or save large sums of money for the airline, and lives of some or many people.
Who are awake at night in an airline? Cannot be one person, precisely because they need sleep, days off, vacations etc. A number of people must be involved... but in the morning when people get up, read news headlines and go on their business, are the people awake at night treated as underlings and menials? Or are they fully respected?
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That has to be the most confusing thing I've ever read.
Rainboe will correct me if necessary, but the answers to your sane questions are:
"When a captain is aboard a plane in flight, BUT has been asleep for hours, plans on being asleep for hours and is naked between the sheets in crew rest, who then is in command - that captain, or whatever pilot actually is awake, physically in cockpit and sitting in the left seat?"
Ultimately, the captain on his break. At the controls: the senior first officer.
"And does a pilot sitting in left seat while a captain is in crew rest have to be a captain as well?"
No.
Does a three pilot crew have to be 2 captains and 1 first officer?
No.
Rainboe will correct me if necessary, but the answers to your sane questions are:
"When a captain is aboard a plane in flight, BUT has been asleep for hours, plans on being asleep for hours and is naked between the sheets in crew rest, who then is in command - that captain, or whatever pilot actually is awake, physically in cockpit and sitting in the left seat?"
Ultimately, the captain on his break. At the controls: the senior first officer.
"And does a pilot sitting in left seat while a captain is in crew rest have to be a captain as well?"
No.
Does a three pilot crew have to be 2 captains and 1 first officer?
No.
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I have seen a small airline 'run' by 3 pretty girls in their 20s (on a Friday afternoon!). It all ticks over. A couple of people in the Ops/Crewing office do all hotel bookings, clearances, permissions, authorisations, rostering, scheduling etc. When you are professional and know your job......I'm not saying they say it at all, but they might agree it all actually runs better like that!
Even a VLA (very large airline) is run by the most junior staff at weekends!
Even a VLA (very large airline) is run by the most junior staff at weekends!
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Me thinks Rainboe talks a lot of horse manure
Some of his facts are pretty close to reality, but the vast majority is way of the mark!
I'm not sure what qualifies Rainboe as a 'fountain of knowledge' in all departments, and I certainly wouldn't quote/repeat anything he writes. If you are SLF and interested in aviation there are plenty of books and internet sites dedicated to this sort of thing - which I can assure you will be a whole lot more factual than his ramblings!
Some of his facts are pretty close to reality, but the vast majority is way of the mark!
I'm not sure what qualifies Rainboe as a 'fountain of knowledge' in all departments, and I certainly wouldn't quote/repeat anything he writes. If you are SLF and interested in aviation there are plenty of books and internet sites dedicated to this sort of thing - which I can assure you will be a whole lot more factual than his ramblings!
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Take all relevant and obvious facts into consideration, then make a decision and, if possible, communicate that decision to the Airline. The Duty Ops Officer may have knowledge that the Captain does not possess and be able to alter the decision. Better that way than ask "what shall we do now?" during the middle of the night when inexperienced staff may be on duty. If no contact possible, then carry out that decision and back it up with a written report.
Regarding the Captain being "on rest period" - the designated Captain is always in command, however that command may be delegated temporarily to a relief Captain or a F/O who is qualified by the Airline to occupy the left seat during cruise relief duties. If the Airline does not allow F/Os to occupy the left seat, then legally the Captain may not leave the seat for rest purposes - harsh but true!
Regarding the Captain being "on rest period" - the designated Captain is always in command, however that command may be delegated temporarily to a relief Captain or a F/O who is qualified by the Airline to occupy the left seat during cruise relief duties. If the Airline does not allow F/Os to occupy the left seat, then legally the Captain may not leave the seat for rest purposes - harsh but true!
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point8six: so some F/Os (presumably those who are less experienced) are not allowed in the left seat in the cruise while the captain is on rest? Is this the same as the distinction between F/O and S/FO? Or is that just a seniority thing?
One other question: I always thought that decisions to divert to another airport due to crap weather, etc. were solely at the discretion of the captain? Do I infer from some answers on this thread that the airline ops department can have a say too?
One other question: I always thought that decisions to divert to another airport due to crap weather, etc. were solely at the discretion of the captain? Do I infer from some answers on this thread that the airline ops department can have a say too?
JohnR
"I always thought that decisions to divert to another airport due to crap weather, etc. were solely at the discretion of the captain? Do I infer from some answers on this thread that the airline ops department can have a say too?"
If the diversion is for something "routine" and not time critical then yes, Ops can, and probably would have a say. For example say you are heading into LHR from the States, but still hundreds of miles out, and the LHR weather goes below limits for an approach then a diversion is on the cards. Before diving into Cardiff/Shannon/Stansted/Gatwick or wherever it might be prudent for the Flight Crew to talk to Ops ( via Radio or Sat Comm) and ask them if they had a preference as to a landing airport. Ops will have the big picture information about the availability of Ground Handling/Fuel etc, etc. Having got Ops input the Captain would then be in a better position to make the decison as to where to divert to.
On the other hand if time and/or circumstances don't permit ( e.g. in-Flight Emergency involving a landing ASAP) you get the aircraft on the ground, hopefully at a suitable airfield, and then talk to Ops
"I always thought that decisions to divert to another airport due to crap weather, etc. were solely at the discretion of the captain? Do I infer from some answers on this thread that the airline ops department can have a say too?"
If the diversion is for something "routine" and not time critical then yes, Ops can, and probably would have a say. For example say you are heading into LHR from the States, but still hundreds of miles out, and the LHR weather goes below limits for an approach then a diversion is on the cards. Before diving into Cardiff/Shannon/Stansted/Gatwick or wherever it might be prudent for the Flight Crew to talk to Ops ( via Radio or Sat Comm) and ask them if they had a preference as to a landing airport. Ops will have the big picture information about the availability of Ground Handling/Fuel etc, etc. Having got Ops input the Captain would then be in a better position to make the decison as to where to divert to.
On the other hand if time and/or circumstances don't permit ( e.g. in-Flight Emergency involving a landing ASAP) you get the aircraft on the ground, hopefully at a suitable airfield, and then talk to Ops
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All captains in our operation report directly to the Chief Pilot. Everyone else on board reports to the Captain, and certain on board, such as the ride-on mechanic, also report to the Director of maintenance.
If the Captain is out of his seat, or becomes incapacitated, the First Officer is in charge.
On long flights in which crewmembers require crew rest, an "augmented" or "heavy" crew will be on board. In an augmented crew, we have one first officer, two captains, and two flight engineers. A heavy crew has two first officer's also. When we fly augmented, the first officer only flies in the right seat. The captains take turns in both seats. When flying as a heavy crew, the first officers still only fly right seat, and the captains alternate through the left seat. We also utilize what's referred to as an "International Relief Pilot." This is similiar to a "cruise captain" position with other operators. The IRP can occupy either seat during cruise.
The concept of Operational Control is the guiding force in determining who can make what decisions. The Captain always has the ultimate authorityto act in the interest of safety of flight. However, the Captain holds joint operational control with the Director of Operations and the Dispatchers and Flight followers who initiate and monitor the flight as it progresses. A captain can certainly make a decision to divert. However, the company can also call and direct the captain to divert. The captain will then have the final say in determining if the divert can be done safely, and will accept or reject this action.
In a case where a diversion is necessary in the judgement of the captain, it's not a matter of calling to ask the company if it's okay. It's a matter of calling the company to advise them the captain has made a decision, and what his intentions are.
Operational Control is the authority to initiate, modify, or terminate or reject a flight. That belongs to the Director of Operations and those whom he delegates...and the Pilot in Command by his final authority with respect to the safe operation of the airplane, holds operational control jointly with the Director of Operations.
Practically speaking, the company is paying the paycheck. If the company wants something done and it can be done safely and legally, then it's going to get done the way the company wants.
If the Captain is out of his seat, or becomes incapacitated, the First Officer is in charge.
On long flights in which crewmembers require crew rest, an "augmented" or "heavy" crew will be on board. In an augmented crew, we have one first officer, two captains, and two flight engineers. A heavy crew has two first officer's also. When we fly augmented, the first officer only flies in the right seat. The captains take turns in both seats. When flying as a heavy crew, the first officers still only fly right seat, and the captains alternate through the left seat. We also utilize what's referred to as an "International Relief Pilot." This is similiar to a "cruise captain" position with other operators. The IRP can occupy either seat during cruise.
The concept of Operational Control is the guiding force in determining who can make what decisions. The Captain always has the ultimate authorityto act in the interest of safety of flight. However, the Captain holds joint operational control with the Director of Operations and the Dispatchers and Flight followers who initiate and monitor the flight as it progresses. A captain can certainly make a decision to divert. However, the company can also call and direct the captain to divert. The captain will then have the final say in determining if the divert can be done safely, and will accept or reject this action.
In a case where a diversion is necessary in the judgement of the captain, it's not a matter of calling to ask the company if it's okay. It's a matter of calling the company to advise them the captain has made a decision, and what his intentions are.
Operational Control is the authority to initiate, modify, or terminate or reject a flight. That belongs to the Director of Operations and those whom he delegates...and the Pilot in Command by his final authority with respect to the safe operation of the airplane, holds operational control jointly with the Director of Operations.
Practically speaking, the company is paying the paycheck. If the company wants something done and it can be done safely and legally, then it's going to get done the way the company wants.
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What does Guppy think about ORD-HKG-Macau confusion, referenced above under pilot writes letter about VLA management?
I didn't understand the concept the Captain kept pushing about a ferryboat without proper passenger screening and security. He does comprehend that it's a foreign country and a ferry boat, not an airline flight? Perhaps he had a legitimate concern, perhaps not. I wasn't there, and can't comment directly.
To point back to your question once more, could the captain have made these decisions on his own (and remembering that I could bring myself to wade through the entire thread)...possibly yes. Possibly no. I don't know the company policy or culture over there, or the captain or any of the other actors involved to be able to intelligently speak to who could have done what, and why.
I've no doubt that the captain did the best he could, whatever he did, under the circumstances, as do we all.
I do know that I've seen several pilots in the past called on the carpet and fired for comments made on a public web board regarding company actions. How that applies in this case I can't say, because I am not associated with any of the parties.
I believe the thrust of your question is why the captain couldn't simply make the decision on behalf of the company. Bearing in mind that I don't work for that company and was not in his shoes...
The captain has authority as pilot in command of the airplane during a trip. One could say it's "his" airplane. When making decisions on the ground, he's done exercising pilot in command authority, because the flight is over. Certainly he holds a certain amount of "rank," and in most operations will still be recognized as the on-site manager for his crew...but whether or not his company extends him the ability to make decisions directly in opposition to what the company tells him to do...I can't say. I very much doubt it.
If the company airlines me around the world, they're supposed to do it business class if it's available. When I travel, it's nearly always economy class...often as not in the middle seat, and often as not it's hardly a glamorous or restful way to go. I'd prefer not to do that. I could use the company card to upgrade my ticket for some expense, but the company would take it right out of my paycheck, and I'd have some explaining to do. When the company tells me "not authorized," that's not code for "you go right ahead and do whatever you want."
Simply because one is aircrew doesn't mean one can disregard company direction. One can certainly stand one's ground on regulatory or even contractual points...but I don't get to pick the hotels or the flights or make my own arrangements. The company does that.
Pushing back works sometimes, but it's really a matter of risking winning the battle and losing the war. One needs to pick one's battles carefully. In this case it appears the crew was inconvenienced beyond measure...which really isn't all that uncommon. The crew was treated badly, the passengers were treated badly, and the whole affair could have been handled with greater cooperation and tact.
I'm a little surprised that the letter is aired in a public forum. There is absolutely nothing that the court of public opinion could do to aid that case. Channels exist to handle those things appropriately, and taking the fight into a public place accomplishes nothing but raised eyebrows and futile shaking of heads. I feel sorry for the crew, but I've been there myself, and am quite sure nearly every other pilot on this board has too. It's not right...but it's aviation.
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I have heard of a flight crew many years ago being suspended for going against the wishes of the company when they were requested to delay a flight to wait for a lot of late pax but didn't and carried on and departed to schedule.
JohnR
The system Guppy describes is fairly standard. Ultimately it's the Company's train set, so to speak...the Captain gets to run it for a while but at the end of the day as long as it's safe and legal you park the aircraft where the Company wants it parked....
The system Guppy describes is fairly standard. Ultimately it's the Company's train set, so to speak...the Captain gets to run it for a while but at the end of the day as long as it's safe and legal you park the aircraft where the Company wants it parked....
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"I have heard of a flight crew many years ago being suspended for going against the wishes of the company when they were requested to delay a flight to wait for a lot of late pax but didn't and carried on and departed to schedule."
Good for the company. Unless FTL Discretion or a dire safety factor was involved, I can't see how this Captain considered himself to have the authority to make such a commercial / operational decision off his own back.
Operations Departments are far better prepared in strategies for moving aircraft and passengers around to minimise expense and overall disruption. Too often I have witnessed pigeon-chested attitudes of Captains exuding power and authority outwith their remit. They are usually the ones who refer to "my" aircraft and "my" crew. CRM is company-wide through all an airline's departments; not just confined to the aluminium tube.
Good for the company. Unless FTL Discretion or a dire safety factor was involved, I can't see how this Captain considered himself to have the authority to make such a commercial / operational decision off his own back.
Operations Departments are far better prepared in strategies for moving aircraft and passengers around to minimise expense and overall disruption. Too often I have witnessed pigeon-chested attitudes of Captains exuding power and authority outwith their remit. They are usually the ones who refer to "my" aircraft and "my" crew. CRM is company-wide through all an airline's departments; not just confined to the aluminium tube.
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My brother-in-law is a Cabin Service Director on BA longhaul, and he says he is really 'in charge' of the aeroplane when it is carrying passengers and the Captains normally do listen to what he says. Mind you, he earns a real fortune doing it! I guess it is all the responsibility he has?
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Tongue in cheek
Forgive me folks but I couldn't help it....................
When the operations are normal there are plenty of people who think the Captain reports to them: base chief pilots, managers, H.R. people company legal dept even some gate agents.
But when something goes wrong, especially in flight, there is virtually no disagreement. The Captain is in charge and carries the burden of command. Nobody else is in sight.
Merry Christmas all...............
.............stuck on the road and can't get home................
When the operations are normal there are plenty of people who think the Captain reports to them: base chief pilots, managers, H.R. people company legal dept even some gate agents.
But when something goes wrong, especially in flight, there is virtually no disagreement. The Captain is in charge and carries the burden of command. Nobody else is in sight.
Merry Christmas all...............
.............stuck on the road and can't get home................