So, Why No Short Turns To Finals These Days?
Thread Starter
So, Why No Short Turns To Finals These Days?
Here at Teesside, we used to admire DC9s F27s, and the other regular visitors going for 2 mile finals or less on decent days, marvelling at their accurate flying.
Now, most traffic seems to go for 4 miles or even more.
The traffic levels have not changed.
No noise abatement for inbounds, I guess. And FRA Falcons still do it, quite spectacularly.
Is this a result of "the glass cockpit" with resultant reluctance to hand-fly, SOPs, or something else?
Now, most traffic seems to go for 4 miles or even more.
The traffic levels have not changed.
No noise abatement for inbounds, I guess. And FRA Falcons still do it, quite spectacularly.
Is this a result of "the glass cockpit" with resultant reluctance to hand-fly, SOPs, or something else?
Most airliners require their crew to be fully stabilized and in the landing configuration by 500 feet on VFR days or 1000ft on IMC days. Failure to do so will lead to tea and biccies with the chief pilot. Thus a turn onto finals would be about 600 feet. Not leaving much room to be stabilized.
These days there is also a tendency for companies to want pilots to shoot ILS's as a visual approach is deemed a non precision approach and thus the likely hood of something going wrong increases (dont agree with that but thats what the company says)
I love hand flying the ol 73 and will try and disconnect at a reasonably early time but if the weather is rough Ill let Mr Autopilot take it to minimums.
Hope it helps
These days there is also a tendency for companies to want pilots to shoot ILS's as a visual approach is deemed a non precision approach and thus the likely hood of something going wrong increases (dont agree with that but thats what the company says)
I love hand flying the ol 73 and will try and disconnect at a reasonably early time but if the weather is rough Ill let Mr Autopilot take it to minimums.
Hope it helps
Thread Starter
Thanks, all.
"stick, rudder and mk 1 eyeball" deemed less safe than other approaches? Do airlines avoid sharpening skills for the sake of procedural orthodoxy? Bonkers...
"stick, rudder and mk 1 eyeball" deemed less safe than other approaches? Do airlines avoid sharpening skills for the sake of procedural orthodoxy? Bonkers...
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can, worms, open . . .
I'm sure that most flight safety departments would tell you that being radar vectored onto an 8 mile autocoupled ILS is statistically safer than stick, rudder and Mk 1 eyeball. And they're probably right - modern airliners are designed to be flown on the automatics, they don't handle like Cessna 152s, and dispensing with the autopilot and going visual is a great way to end up high and fast and scaring the bloke in the other seat. All to save 1 minute of flight time. Mercifully, with the advent of stabilised approach SOPs and flight data monitoring, the days of yahoo hairy-chested 'look what I can do' approaches are pretty much over.
My company allows us to hand fly visual approaches if we want to, but the majority of captains I fly with would rather stay on radar vectors with the autopilot in, even in perfect VMC. Boring if you say so, but most definitely safe - and certainly not bonkers.
On the other hand, if you're arguing that monitoring the autopilot all day erodes basic IF skills, then I'm with you there. I do sometimes hand fly instrument approaches, and I'm not as sharp as when I was doing my IR in a Duchess. But I have to recognise that as soon as the autopilot comes out, the workload increases dramatically for both pilots - sharpening my hand flying skills comes at the price of reducing our (both pilots') capacity to monitor the bigger picture.
Commercial flying is all about minimising risk, and I would suggest that letting the autopilot do its job is a safer option than hand flying every other approach, 'just to stay sharp'.
I'm sure that most flight safety departments would tell you that being radar vectored onto an 8 mile autocoupled ILS is statistically safer than stick, rudder and Mk 1 eyeball. And they're probably right - modern airliners are designed to be flown on the automatics, they don't handle like Cessna 152s, and dispensing with the autopilot and going visual is a great way to end up high and fast and scaring the bloke in the other seat. All to save 1 minute of flight time. Mercifully, with the advent of stabilised approach SOPs and flight data monitoring, the days of yahoo hairy-chested 'look what I can do' approaches are pretty much over.
My company allows us to hand fly visual approaches if we want to, but the majority of captains I fly with would rather stay on radar vectors with the autopilot in, even in perfect VMC. Boring if you say so, but most definitely safe - and certainly not bonkers.
On the other hand, if you're arguing that monitoring the autopilot all day erodes basic IF skills, then I'm with you there. I do sometimes hand fly instrument approaches, and I'm not as sharp as when I was doing my IR in a Duchess. But I have to recognise that as soon as the autopilot comes out, the workload increases dramatically for both pilots - sharpening my hand flying skills comes at the price of reducing our (both pilots') capacity to monitor the bigger picture.
Commercial flying is all about minimising risk, and I would suggest that letting the autopilot do its job is a safer option than hand flying every other approach, 'just to stay sharp'.
Midland 331, perhaps its the poor weather its been 
up here all summer its no wonder that no one has done much visual flying.
Can you remember the last full day of clear blue skies with good visibility.
up here all summer its no wonder that no one has done much visual flying.Can you remember the last full day of clear blue skies with good visibility.
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I am sure short final's do still happen.
I regularly see aircraft line up for Luton approach (Runway 26) at less than two miles.
Some tune tight to get on the ILS quick then wheels down and landing lights on.
Not naming any airlines names but it's not the cargo aircraft more so the passenger jets going into Luton.
I regularly see aircraft line up for Luton approach (Runway 26) at less than two miles.
Some tune tight to get on the ILS quick then wheels down and landing lights on.
Not naming any airlines names but it's not the cargo aircraft more so the passenger jets going into Luton.
Thread Starter
Thanks again, all, especially G-SXTY.
My comments come from browsing PPRUNE and spotting a gentle trend of concern amongst some. Plus, a week of conversations with an ex-Midland chap I met on holiday who was attending a BA groundschool to convert to the 747.
Sure, if the machine favours being flown non-manually, and the objective to to get the punters to the destination, then I fully understand. Everyone prefers a quiet day at the office.
What puzzles me, however, are turns onto the ILS at eight miles on traffic-free and CAVOK days. For all their "Sweeney car-chase" frantic taxi-ing and carrier deck-style arrivals, Ryanair seem to be one of the frequent "long-establishment" regulars.
I used to see Midland DC9s turn visually to finals at less than two miles at Teesside, incredibly, from the jumpseat, watched another go "wings-level" above the 27L threshold at LHR (no idea where he came from and why this happened) to the astonishment of the crew. And once experienced an utterly non-standard missed approach to 23 at MME which involved a late break-off, tight, continuous turn at (at best) circuit height to final due to ATC and flight deck misunderstandings. The view from the nine's wonderful jumpseat was a bit bracing...
My comments come from browsing PPRUNE and spotting a gentle trend of concern amongst some. Plus, a week of conversations with an ex-Midland chap I met on holiday who was attending a BA groundschool to convert to the 747.
Sure, if the machine favours being flown non-manually, and the objective to to get the punters to the destination, then I fully understand. Everyone prefers a quiet day at the office.
What puzzles me, however, are turns onto the ILS at eight miles on traffic-free and CAVOK days. For all their "Sweeney car-chase" frantic taxi-ing and carrier deck-style arrivals, Ryanair seem to be one of the frequent "long-establishment" regulars.
I used to see Midland DC9s turn visually to finals at less than two miles at Teesside, incredibly, from the jumpseat, watched another go "wings-level" above the 27L threshold at LHR (no idea where he came from and why this happened) to the astonishment of the crew. And once experienced an utterly non-standard missed approach to 23 at MME which involved a late break-off, tight, continuous turn at (at best) circuit height to final due to ATC and flight deck misunderstandings. The view from the nine's wonderful jumpseat was a bit bracing...
Last edited by Midland 331; 11th Sep 2008 at 10:17.
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I'm sure you'll have heard the old cliché; 'a good landing follows a good approach'. Well it's true, and it's easier to achieve if you're established on final and stabilised from a fair way out. Late turns onto final make the job much harder.
I fly with one chap who did his groundschool with Orville and Wilbur, has 23,000hrs and can hand fly an ILS smoother than the autopilot. No doubt he can fly whatever profile you give him, but he'll take radar vectors over a visual approach any day of the week. Why? He's got nothing left to prove, it's arguably safer, the time savings of a visual approach are negligible, and it gives PNF an easier time.
I enjoy hand flying approaches, but I enjoy having low blood pressure even more.
I fly with one chap who did his groundschool with Orville and Wilbur, has 23,000hrs and can hand fly an ILS smoother than the autopilot. No doubt he can fly whatever profile you give him, but he'll take radar vectors over a visual approach any day of the week. Why? He's got nothing left to prove, it's arguably safer, the time savings of a visual approach are negligible, and it gives PNF an easier time.
I enjoy hand flying approaches, but I enjoy having low blood pressure even more.
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MIDLAND 331
We enjoyed the 1 mile final whilst pleasure flying not so long back in the 'Dak', courtesy, of course of your very professional ATC at Teeside!
Thanks to all involved at Teeside Airport for making our three day visit very enjoyable.
Regards
Yorky
& on behalf of Classic Flight Coventry.
We enjoyed the 1 mile final whilst pleasure flying not so long back in the 'Dak', courtesy, of course of your very professional ATC at Teeside!
Thanks to all involved at Teeside Airport for making our three day visit very enjoyable.
Regards
Yorky
& on behalf of Classic Flight Coventry.
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In 1992, I rode jump seat w/ a RJ Captain who made a beautiful WWII-style "carrier approach" to AMM 09R - From tight downwind he made a descending 180 to very short final - we weren't wings level until over the numbers.
In a 1011 no less.
Of course it was CAVU, his home field and he knew the landmarks.
In a 1011 no less.
Of course it was CAVU, his home field and he knew the landmarks.
Thread Starter
Yorky,
Your visit was very much appreciated by my elderly neighbour, thanks!
I'm guessing that a DC3 is a bit more amenable to that kind of flying.
The other side of this is the amazing downwind "cross-country" legs flown by modern equipment, which made me think that some kind of standard arrival had been instituted. Hardly fuel-efficient...
Your visit was very much appreciated by my elderly neighbour, thanks!
I'm guessing that a DC3 is a bit more amenable to that kind of flying.
The other side of this is the amazing downwind "cross-country" legs flown by modern equipment, which made me think that some kind of standard arrival had been instituted. Hardly fuel-efficient...
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I don't know how much has changed since, but in '97 I flew as pax in B737 from Christchurch to Queenstown in New Zealand landing on RWY 23, and that was the sort of approach you would be interested in! I remember thinking at the time how it would be somewhat challenging in a small twin prop, never mind a jet....
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Also, if the radar controller is working a sequence of inbounds, it's easier to give them all radar vectors for ILS rather than breaking the sequence with a visual approach here and there
Ivor
Ivor
Thread Starter
Sure, having listened to ATC at Teesside, and many other places, for many years, I can understand fully the need for traffic sequencing, but the long downwind legs on traffic-free CAVOK days amuse me.
This is not Gatwick, where I once heard approach telling an inbound that he was number 13 in the sequence.
One enterprising skipper once managed 38 minutes from Heathrow to Teesside with a Viscount (!), nabbing a direct routing through the heart of military territory, which was inactive (it was New Year's Eve) Many things seemed to have changed...
This is not Gatwick, where I once heard approach telling an inbound that he was number 13 in the sequence.
One enterprising skipper once managed 38 minutes from Heathrow to Teesside with a Viscount (!), nabbing a direct routing through the heart of military territory, which was inactive (it was New Year's Eve) Many things seemed to have changed...
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Not too sure of the accuracy of this report ( any ex Midland DC9 drivers would be able to vouch for it) but the 'record' time LHR-MME is allegedly sub 30mins. So the story goes, last flight of the day (DC9) to MME departs 09R at LHR and is given direct routings to land on 05. Full chat all the way and use of speedbrake at the end. Anyone able to confirm or deny????
Thread Starter
So, what's the plural of "final", then? I've actually heard both singular and plural used in ATC traffic.
BTW, The title should have read:- "So Why No Turns to Short Finals These Days?"
(egad, nothing is quite like PPRUNE for this kind of rivet-counting, pernicketty stuff. And I thought I was safe in the spotter's area...)
BTW, The title should have read:- "So Why No Turns to Short Finals These Days?"
(egad, nothing is quite like PPRUNE for this kind of rivet-counting, pernicketty stuff. And I thought I was safe in the spotter's area...)
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Atlanta
RWY 8L at Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta thats a fairly short turn onto final. Saw the final turn in an A-330 from the back US air. Seemed to turn with 3 mile on final before the final little part over the river.
Last edited by drivez; 14th Sep 2008 at 16:44.