mp413

I have generally wondered this but it came up today specifically as I was trying to research an incident that occurred on a flight I was on a while back on the U.S. NTSB website. I am not a pilot, rather a regular passenger with an interest in flying and I was trying to locate this particular incident through the NTSB's search function. I don't want to clog the pilots' forums with such queries so I am hoping someone can direct me to a place where I can ask a basic question such as, "why isn't my incident coming up on the NTSB search page?" Apologies if I am posting this in the wrong place, I know how sensitive people are about that on these forums! That said, I love PPRUNE and read it all the time.

thanks,

mp413

BOAC

mp - this is as good a forum to start in as any, although we may move you to a more appropriate one should that prove beneficial to your quest.

Post a little more detail please and I'm pretty sure someone will be able to help. If it was only 'an incident' it is more than possible that it has been dealt with inside the company as can occur in the UK.

mp413

Thanks BOAC, I had assumed that any incident would have to be reported, perhaps this one was dealt with internally as you say. I was flying to a connecting city in the U.S. (quite sure it was Minneapolis) and pilot announced we would be landing (Minneapolis was visible below, it was night). 45 mins later we were still circling, pax. started wondering what was going on. Finally pilot comes on and says flaps not functioning, that they've talked to maintenance on the ground and no way to fix it. So he said we'd land at a faster speed than usual, and that he was warning us b/c there would be firetrucks upon landing. Landing was fine, I imagine they just had to brake a lot harder than usual.

Looking at the incident search function on the NTSB site it seems like even minor incidents are reported so I had assumed this would be, too, but maybe the problem wasn't significant enough? Is it true that the only "danger" resulting from non-functioning flaps on landing is excessive speed? As pax. you always wonder whether the problem you're being told about is as minimal as it's made to sound (and I imagine you have to minimize things when you tell pax. so as not to cause panic).

thanks!

mp413

Mad (Flt) Scientist

The requirement is for the operator to notify the FAA, not the NTSB. There are a very large number of such incidents every year; for the NTSB to even look over the report of each one would drastically stretch their manpower. Indeed, I believe they don't even routinely attend a GA accident these days; they decide whether to attend based on the apparent circumstances of each case.

In this case, I'd expect that three organisation would become aware of the incident: the airline itself, the FAA, and the OEM. Each has a duty to track incidents and take action if they believe there is a trend that requires action.

Flaps failure isn't uncommon; it's also a relatively minor effect on safety unless something else happens to make it more serious. For example, ladning with flaps stuck at cruise position on a nice dry runway is a relatively benign event; the same failure on a runway with snow or slush, especially if the runway is short-ish, is another matter entirely. The only real problem is indeed the faster speed, which means you need more runway to stop, and the brakes have to absorb more energy (in addition to the troubleshooting the pilot described to you, another thing they were doing while circling was burning off excess fuel, which minimises the speed and the braking requirements).

Mad (Flt) Scientist

I believe that if you search the FAA's Accident Incident Data System (great choice of acronym! ) you'll probably find some reference to your occurrence if its had time to be submitted.

link to first item here

If not, one of the other FAA safety databases might have the info.

mp413

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain that to me. The FAA site search didn't pull anything up but the reason is likely that I don't remember enough details. The only term I put in the narrative text field was "flaps" which is probably overbroad.

To be perfectly honest, prior to that incident, which I'm glad to hear is relatively minor, I loved flying, and after it became a very nervous flyer (and still am). So I've always been curious about it. But, I think my curiosity was satisfied by your reply. Thanks again!

BelArgUSA

Hola mp413 -
xxx
Similar to this Pprune Forum but mostly oriented towards the US airline industry, there is the "Airline Pilot Central Forum" - which you can read at www.airlinepilotforums.com/index.php ... Try also the "Airliners Net"...
xxx
Fact is that Pprune is mostly active with UK and European aviation enthusiasts or pilots, whereas a plugged toilet in a Ryanair's B-737, or an overheating coffee machine in a BA A-320 galley will be immediately reported (and then debated), but unless a major accident in the US occurs, little is being mentioned about minor incidents on your side of the duck pond. So, flaps-up landings in MSP are definitely of little or no interest to most of the Ppruners...
xxx
That your aircraft circled around for 45 minutes before landing with no flaps, was likely to be to burn fuel, and reduce weight, to lower the approach speed as a precaution.
xxx

Happy contrails

mp413

Thanks BelArgUSA, I figured it must not be a huge deal, but I did expect a report to show up on the FAA incident list.

Thanks also for the links to other forums!

mp413

WHBM

Regarding "other internet fora" relevant to passengers you can also try Flyertalk. They have separate sections for each of the US major carriers and get a lot of postings from personnel at the carrier concerned, so an query there about a specific incident will usually get an informed reply.

BOAC

mp - I am not aware of the US system, but I would not expect an incident such as you describe to be published on a 'public' site. In the UK it would generate an Air Safety Report which would probably be logged onto an industry-specific database for other operators.

We do have a lot of US contributors and I would hope that if you gave us the date/airline and flt number one of the relevant airline crews might take the time to expand on it since you haveshown an interest, but would probably prefer to do this privately by PM.

BelArgUSA

Hola mp413 -
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I try to advise passengers (whenever possible) if a minor (and certainly if major) problem occurs, if time permits, in Spanish, English and French, about the reasons of delays, procedures, and "howgozit" of the flight. Well, do not expect too much if something keeps us busy up there in the flight deck.
xxx
Funny thing is you mention "flaps up"... Must not be a Boeing plane you were flying... We have alternate flaps extension procedures in 747s... which never failed (at least with me), so much that "flaps up" procedures are not even part of simulator the training curriculum we have... I never did one in a 747 simulator... although I know it requires an increase of 50 kts above the normal approach speed.
xxx
Flaps are normally operated with the hydraulic systems. If that fails (no flaps, or split or assymetric flaps, partial flaps, leading edge or trailing edge) we have alternate extension of these flaps by electric motors... which then take long time to operate, typical such procedures require extra 15 minutes to configure the flaps for landing.
xxx
As BOAC says, I would not fail to go to the L-2 "passenger exit door" of the 747, and I would - with pleasure - apologize to passengers and answer any questions. And yes, bored at my desk which I fly much nowadays, it has happened that I answer passenger inquiries, about my own flights, or even about other flights.
xxx
I get some PMs quite often, certainly like many other pilots with Pprune, and whenever I can answer a question, it is with pleasure... In the old days of cockpit visits and open doors, I used to welcome many passengers to shake hands. Many "little-old-ladies" lost their fear of flying with my smile, and many "wannabee-pilots" got on the jump seat for landing...
xxx

Happy contrails

The AvgasDinosaur

This one is THE BEST. Just use a bit of common sense and respect, but above all try the search function before you post.
Be lucky
David