EGLL very short finals in the 80s ?
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EGLL very short finals in the 80s ?
I used live in South west Ealing in the 80s, quite near the M4 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...698&iwloc=addr. Normally when on Westerlies landing aircraft would pass to the south (or sometimes the North when rnwy 23 was in use). Very occasionally aircraft would pass almost overhead heading SW onto what must have been a very short final, I've not seen this happens for years. I was just wondering if anyone knows in what circumstances this used happen?
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I would guess that they would have been aircraft given a visual approch to 27R[28R as was]. It does still happen, but less frequently (or should I say more rarely) with the increase in traffic volumes.
In my 17 years operating in/out of LHR for a large local carrier, I have received about 8 or 9 visual approaches, or about 1 per 2 years.
In my 17 years operating in/out of LHR for a large local carrier, I have received about 8 or 9 visual approaches, or about 1 per 2 years.
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In the late was flying a Piper Aztec on to 27L was asked to keep the speed uo as long as possible 170 knots to final which i did but as the speed needed to come of inside two miles was asked by A.T.C. as something was catching us up, do i have 27R insight yes will you position onto 27R, yes we were in a light twin but doing this we must have been turning on final over the Engineering complex.
All in a days work
All in a days work
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If I interpret your location correctly traffic heading south over you would turn in for a 4-5 mile final, which isn't desperately tight for smaller aircraft. As has been suggested, you probably saw aircraft on visual approaches where the turn on is entirely at the pilot's discretion - and some could really turn in tight!!
Way back in the Golden Days a Heathrow controller bet a Viscount pilot coming in via Watford that he couldn't land on 28R without receiving the ILS Middle Marker (which was about 1.5 miles out I recall). The pilot accepted the challenge..... and the controller had to get his wallet out later!
Way back in the Golden Days a Heathrow controller bet a Viscount pilot coming in via Watford that he couldn't land on 28R without receiving the ILS Middle Marker (which was about 1.5 miles out I recall). The pilot accepted the challenge..... and the controller had to get his wallet out later!
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Way back in the Golden Days a Heathrow controller bet a Viscount pilot coming in via Watford that he couldn't land on 28R without receiving the ILS Middle Marker (which was about 1.5 miles out I recall). The pilot accepted the challenge..... and the controller had to get his wallet out later!
From my notes (unread for the last xx years!), the MM is at about 1.5km from the threshold, not 1.5NM. That would make it at about the Cat 1 DH of about 200ft or so, which makes sense. I suspect on that basis that the controller was conned to open his wallet
I remember being told that the aural sounds of the markers reflected your heart beat, ie OM = dash...dash...dash (slow), MM= dot . dash..dot..dash (pretty quick), IM = dot,dot.dot.dot (bl00dy quick), ie the cclser to the threshold without visual reference the faster it became.
Jack's Granddad
Funnily enough Mr Trident until the mid 60's I lived in a house approx 200 yds away from the location you pinpoint on the map. As an adolescent I used to take an interest in the aircraft movements at Heathrow but can only ever recall one occasion when a BOAC Britannia flew almost directly over my house whilst heading for the airport.
On the other hand when aircraft were taking off in an Easterly direction, presumably from 09L, a high proportion did pass almost directly overhead as they climbed out - me and friends often used to sit in our garden with cheap binoculars noting the registrations off the undersides of the wings.
On the other hand when aircraft were taking off in an Easterly direction, presumably from 09L, a high proportion did pass almost directly overhead as they climbed out - me and friends often used to sit in our garden with cheap binoculars noting the registrations off the undersides of the wings.
About 10-15 years ago there was a mail plane operation with a British Midland (as they were then) 737 from Edinburgh into LHR which arrived about 00.30 Local, when there was nothing else about. I noticed this arriving a few times from the M4 motorway when heading back into London at that time, more often than not because they seemed to be doing the equivalent of what a PPL would call a Bad Weather Circuit, curving round onto 27R surprisingly close to the markers. In fact you had to look for a few seconds to determine if they headed for 23 or 27R.
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WHBM.. Not wishing to question you, but I would be astounded if that was true. Firstly, I'm not aware of any BM mail flights arriving at 00.30 - well outside the night curfew. Secondly, noise abatement rules, which have been in force for considerably longer than 10-15 years, required aircraft landing at that time to be established in the ILS no closer than 10miles out. Tight-in visual approaches in the middle of the night didn't happen...
There was certainly a very late BM flight from Edinburgh, but this landed around 11pm. I was told that this was often empty but used simply to keep a BM slot occupied...
If someone proves I'm talking tosh I'll withdraw gracefully!
There was certainly a very late BM flight from Edinburgh, but this landed around 11pm. I was told that this was often empty but used simply to keep a BM slot occupied...
If someone proves I'm talking tosh I'll withdraw gracefully!
HD :
There were nightly BM mail flights on Heathrow to Edinburgh, they were non-pax and departed each end at about 23.30. They provided one extra sector at the end of the day for the two LHR-EDI aircraft. They were actually charters by Royal Mail and had flight numbers in the BMA charter flight series, not regular numbers for the Edinburgh service. I'm not certain if the night landing slot came from a Post Office allocation rather than a BMI one.
The aircraft were not convertible as such for the mail run but there were custom-made kits that fitted over the seats that the mail pouches were put into, it took about half an hour to set the cabin up. BMA operated this for quite some years until a Post Office reorganisation ended the service from Heathrow.
Regarding the landing procedure, others are doubtless able to comment.
There were nightly BM mail flights on Heathrow to Edinburgh, they were non-pax and departed each end at about 23.30. They provided one extra sector at the end of the day for the two LHR-EDI aircraft. They were actually charters by Royal Mail and had flight numbers in the BMA charter flight series, not regular numbers for the Edinburgh service. I'm not certain if the night landing slot came from a Post Office allocation rather than a BMI one.
The aircraft were not convertible as such for the mail run but there were custom-made kits that fitted over the seats that the mail pouches were put into, it took about half an hour to set the cabin up. BMA operated this for quite some years until a Post Office reorganisation ended the service from Heathrow.
Regarding the landing procedure, others are doubtless able to comment.
Thread Starter
Duckbutt, it was only for a period in the 80s, if I remember right it was always on clear days (which would tally with the visual approach thing), most often they were BA 757s which I think were pretty new at the time.
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WHBM.. I accept what you say and have to accept that my memory is slowly going. I was a Heathrow controller from 1972-2002 and truly have no recollection of the flights you mention. (Some ex-colleagues will now say it's because I rarely worked nights!)
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The mail flights were
BA3592 LHR-EDI which later became BD8802
BA3593 EDI-LHR which later became BD8801
Both departed at 23:30 local and passed each other on airways half way.
BMA got the contract from the mid 1990s and it ended a few years ago.
BA3592 LHR-EDI which later became BD8802
BA3593 EDI-LHR which later became BD8801
Both departed at 23:30 local and passed each other on airways half way.
BMA got the contract from the mid 1990s and it ended a few years ago.
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Skipness One Echo: Thanks for that... remember it well now. I was there, doing it:
http://www.members.aol.com/heathrowdirector/Tower4.jpg
http://www.members.aol.com/heathrowdirector/Tower4.jpg
WHBM, I remember those mail flights well; I operated many of them as the sole cabin crew member/firefighter on board. Sat in the Penta or Marriott all day, pax'd to EDI on the BD64, ate my Diamond service dinner, sat some more in EDI then returned to LHR, tucked up by 1.15am. Often 4 days on the trot - a cushy number on nite stop money. I always played the boarding music full blast, because those mail bags scared me stiff - especially running to the back to arm the slides! Sounds crazy, but it was all rather eerie. I loved the views on the way down though - it was often so clear, you could see the lights of Tyneside and Dublin at once. It appeared on the roster as 'Nite Freighter'.
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4 DME is for lightweights
As I was reading this thread I was going to comment that 4 or 5 DME wasn't that uncommon at all and that I recalled seeing much tighter than that!
I then realised a theme was forming with a certain midlands headquartered operator:
I recall watching one of their super squat DC9s (a -10 or -15 I think, someone will know) making an approach to 23 or so I thought. It then turned final somewhere over Cranford with somewhere between 1 and 2d to run; and of course was beautifully painted on to 28R.
Spectacular.
The closest I've come in recent years was as PAX on an arrival onto 27L earlier this year in an A319, where the p/f stopped her in very short order and vacated onto taxiway alpha. Made my night at any rate!
I then realised a theme was forming with a certain midlands headquartered operator:
I recall watching one of their super squat DC9s (a -10 or -15 I think, someone will know) making an approach to 23 or so I thought. It then turned final somewhere over Cranford with somewhere between 1 and 2d to run; and of course was beautifully painted on to 28R.
Spectacular.
The closest I've come in recent years was as PAX on an arrival onto 27L earlier this year in an A319, where the p/f stopped her in very short order and vacated onto taxiway alpha. Made my night at any rate!
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Were you around when that EGLD Chipmunk landed near your tower during the night and was only noticed when dawn broke? So long ago I too have brain fade and incipient Alzheimers but it coincided with a big party at Denham but somehow no one remembered the sound of a Chippie departing into the gloom.
Aviate 1138
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aviate1138.. Yes, I was working there but not actually on watch at the time. Best part about it was when ATC rang the Police to tell them about a Chipmunk on the grass the they suggested we should ring the RSPCA Animal Hostel which used to be on the airport!!
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Of course there was always the GATWICK HEATHROW AIRLINK S61 that would make a short if final at all! lol. Thats how it should be again. None of this Speedlink National express rip off!