London City Thread
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Somebody earlier suggested no special skills are required for the 'steep app' stuff at LCY.
Well, I'm not long on line right enough, but I thought it quite a bit different from normal 3 degree ops. Add in a bit of weather and it can get quite involving.
Great fun tho and satisfying if you make a nice job of it.
Well, I'm not long on line right enough, but I thought it quite a bit different from normal 3 degree ops. Add in a bit of weather and it can get quite involving.
Great fun tho and satisfying if you make a nice job of it.
bf, the discussion was on special procedures not skill per se, but that not to say that additional skills are not required. Skills for most aspects of flying have to be developed, steep approaches requires a subset of these involving visual judgement, acclimatising to higher descent rates, etc. Approaching LCY in a Southerly crosswind and at night, requires other skills – preferably not to be rostered on those flights!
WHBM, the airbrake out procedure is required specifically for steep approaches, but at other times it is optional. The recommended airbrake use during normal landing just happened to provide the required speed loss when approaching the threshold, but it can be selected at any time.
I recall that RJ specific ‘super fail passive’ Cat 3 operations required A/B out after GS capture as it provided slightly improved pitch stability and removed the opportunity for a destabilising A/B selection vs autothrust adjustment during the approach.
WHBM, the airbrake out procedure is required specifically for steep approaches, but at other times it is optional. The recommended airbrake use during normal landing just happened to provide the required speed loss when approaching the threshold, but it can be selected at any time.
I recall that RJ specific ‘super fail passive’ Cat 3 operations required A/B out after GS capture as it provided slightly improved pitch stability and removed the opportunity for a destabilising A/B selection vs autothrust adjustment during the approach.
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So I am told......
There is a barge in the docks to take the 146 away. They will have to tug it over to the edge and crane in over......I assume in pieces.
There is a barge in the docks to take the 146 away. They will have to tug it over to the edge and crane in over......I assume in pieces.
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BAE Avro 146 parked at EGLC
Hi
Yesterday i flew in to London City (EGLC) runway 28. Just as we came over the runway threshold i saw what looked like a BAE Avro 146 parked on the other side of the water next to a white modern building north of the runway. I'm not sure of the airline as I only got a chance to see if for a brief moment. it had predominantly white fuselage and a blue tail. It had it's engines covered with Orange covers.
Does anyone know how it got there as there is no way that i know of to taxi to that position? I dont even think its part of the airport? What is it doing there?
Thanks
Yesterday i flew in to London City (EGLC) runway 28. Just as we came over the runway threshold i saw what looked like a BAE Avro 146 parked on the other side of the water next to a white modern building north of the runway. I'm not sure of the airline as I only got a chance to see if for a brief moment. it had predominantly white fuselage and a blue tail. It had it's engines covered with Orange covers.
Does anyone know how it got there as there is no way that i know of to taxi to that position? I dont even think its part of the airport? What is it doing there?
Thanks
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Yes,
It is a Swiss Avro and it has been in the way as LCY since it seriously tailscraped a few weeks ago, have a read:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289698
It is a Swiss Avro and it has been in the way as LCY since it seriously tailscraped a few weeks ago, have a read:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289698
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Seems to be some uncertainty about how a LCY approach is been done. Here some guidelines:
full flaps, speedbrakes
Vref at G/S intercept from a level flight
follow G/S and PAPI
Go Around Lights at end of Touchdown zone. If you miss them: GA
Special wind limits, depending on BA/BC
Only CMD can fly it
Regular training and recency
Technical status of the aircraft (basically all items influencing performance are necessary)
There might be more items, depends on A/C type and company.
Dani
btw: I like this barque thing. Why couldn't they use it on a daily basis if the gates are overcrowded?
full flaps, speedbrakes
Vref at G/S intercept from a level flight
follow G/S and PAPI
Go Around Lights at end of Touchdown zone. If you miss them: GA
Special wind limits, depending on BA/BC
Only CMD can fly it
Regular training and recency
Technical status of the aircraft (basically all items influencing performance are necessary)
There might be more items, depends on A/C type and company.
Dani
btw: I like this barque thing. Why couldn't they use it on a daily basis if the gates are overcrowded?
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Only the CMD can fly it.
Why do some Airlines adopt that policy? As an FO, I was allowed to fly into LCY after a Sim Session with EFATO's and then 5 approaches as PNF.
If you are tought properly, it isn't anything to worry about as long as you are prepared, just a bit interesting with a gusty southerly......
Surley if an FO is based at LCY and is part of several approaches per day, he should be able to land the a/c as well as the CMD, in some cases better looking at some of the landings.
Why do some Airlines adopt that policy? As an FO, I was allowed to fly into LCY after a Sim Session with EFATO's and then 5 approaches as PNF.
If you are tought properly, it isn't anything to worry about as long as you are prepared, just a bit interesting with a gusty southerly......
Surley if an FO is based at LCY and is part of several approaches per day, he should be able to land the a/c as well as the CMD, in some cases better looking at some of the landings.
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Vref at top of drop....what about the windshear and mechanical turbulance?
I use Vref +10 (+15 if gusty), but TP's can slow down very quickly.
Is that for the 146?
I use Vref +10 (+15 if gusty), but TP's can slow down very quickly.
Is that for the 146?
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Only the CMD can fly it.
You might be also correct that you could train most FOs to the task, but in more difficult situation, it's still "best use of equipment" to let the CMD as the PF. Otherwise you could also argue that an FO should do the Cat III, the OEI, the flight control failure... - the list goes on.
As for your question about the Vref I didn't really get what you are asking.
hth,
Dani
Interestingly enough, some 17 years ago I was "loaned" (no doubt at great expense) by my company complete with an F/O to the FAA to spend 2 days in the 146 simulator at Hatfield. The idea was to see if it was possible to fly 7° approaches with any regularity.
The guy in the back was connected to the FAA computer in Kansas City and we were only given a few minutes warning of which approach we were to fly selected at random by the computer.
In other words, it might be a 3-engine approach flown with a go-around at IFR minima or a 4-engined approach at MLW with a full stop landing on a wet runway. We never knew what was coming next.
We used various critical airfields such as Casper, Wyoming, LCY, and Aspen, Colorado.
We were able to prove that a 7° glide slope is the absolute maximum that can be achieved by a BAe146 in still-air conditions. In order to achieve that, you have to be back at VRef+5, Gear Down, 33° Flap with the Airbrakes out and Power back to FI on G/S intercept otherwise it is impossible to stay on the G/S.
LCY was, I believe, originally looking at a 7° slope for noise abatement but such a notion was not practical for everyday purposes. That is one of the reasons why 5.5° was considered to be more practical.
The guy in the back was connected to the FAA computer in Kansas City and we were only given a few minutes warning of which approach we were to fly selected at random by the computer.
In other words, it might be a 3-engine approach flown with a go-around at IFR minima or a 4-engined approach at MLW with a full stop landing on a wet runway. We never knew what was coming next.
We used various critical airfields such as Casper, Wyoming, LCY, and Aspen, Colorado.
We were able to prove that a 7° glide slope is the absolute maximum that can be achieved by a BAe146 in still-air conditions. In order to achieve that, you have to be back at VRef+5, Gear Down, 33° Flap with the Airbrakes out and Power back to FI on G/S intercept otherwise it is impossible to stay on the G/S.
LCY was, I believe, originally looking at a 7° slope for noise abatement but such a notion was not practical for everyday purposes. That is one of the reasons why 5.5° was considered to be more practical.
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Captphil has managed it a couple of times a day for years and the only computer he is connected to is his mum in Bolton
He reckons the plan is to fix it and get a ferry pilot to fly it out of the Red Bull strip
He reckons the plan is to fix it and get a ferry pilot to fly it out of the Red Bull strip
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The aircraft was towed across the dock between next to the university. My pictures can be seen at Flight Global:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ndon-city.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ndon-city.html
Flying it out
What an absolutely fantastic idea! Do you mind if I pass this piece of original inspiration on to the people concerned?
Strictly in confidence, they were considering licensing the Red Bull runway for public transport operations after they had lengthened it and resurfaced the entire length and then installed an ILS at either end just in case the repaired aircraft had to make a return.
Your idea could just be cheaper.
Strictly in confidence, they were considering licensing the Red Bull runway for public transport operations after they had lengthened it and resurfaced the entire length and then installed an ILS at either end just in case the repaired aircraft had to make a return.
Your idea could just be cheaper.
