Helicopter drops big flag over London
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Helicopter drops big flag over London
Hi folks, I was just wondering if there were any restrictions on the size of banners and flags that helicopters were allowed to tow.
The one pictured was circling around the Midlands during the England game.
The registration of the aircraft was G-OHMS.
M!KE
Just seen a smallish helicpter with an enormous England flag flying over Finchley/Southgate area of North London. Fantastic sight and sentiment, but are they allowed to do that? Presumably if the helo had a problem it would ditch the flag, which together with its large stabilising weight at the bottom of the leading edge, would land on whoever was below - wouldn't fancy that dropping on me!
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On 5 June they dropped it by mistake over Bisham Woods near Marlow. I presume that, if they were required to, they reported the disaster to the CAA. I took several pictures of the flag fluttering to earth but don't seem to be able to paste any of them into this post. Any one know how to?
The flag is huge - 25,000 sq ft according to the Cabair guys who were looking for it. It landed in the woods just east of the A404 dual carriageway. It could have caused mayhem had it landed on the road.
According to the Cabair guys, there had been a problem with the ballast release mechanism. There apparently is dry sand all along the lower edge of the flag. The ballast must weigh quite a lot but, provided it is dispersed as individual grains of sand, it would not be a problem
I hate to be a killjoy, but I suspect that, even if there is not an issue with the ballast, it could have been lethal if that huge area of cloth had landed on traffic or something that needed clear visibility or was susceptible to getting tangled up.
The flag is huge - 25,000 sq ft according to the Cabair guys who were looking for it. It landed in the woods just east of the A404 dual carriageway. It could have caused mayhem had it landed on the road.
According to the Cabair guys, there had been a problem with the ballast release mechanism. There apparently is dry sand all along the lower edge of the flag. The ballast must weigh quite a lot but, provided it is dispersed as individual grains of sand, it would not be a problem
I hate to be a killjoy, but I suspect that, even if there is not an issue with the ballast, it could have been lethal if that huge area of cloth had landed on traffic or something that needed clear visibility or was susceptible to getting tangled up.
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A pilot whose helicopter dropped heavy equipment onto a ski lift in Austria last year, killing nine Germans, said he was sorry for what happened but maintained his innocence during his trial Thursday, a news agency reported.
But the agency reported that he denied that he may have pushed a wrong button by mistake, allowing a mechanical hook beneath the helicopter to release a tub weighing nearly 700 kilograms (more than 1,500-pounds) used to transport concrete.
He has in the past argued that a technical problem caused the aircraft to drop the heavy equipment.
http://news.lawinfo.com/story/2_ds_110984.cfm
But the agency reported that he denied that he may have pushed a wrong button by mistake, allowing a mechanical hook beneath the helicopter to release a tub weighing nearly 700 kilograms (more than 1,500-pounds) used to transport concrete.
He has in the past argued that a technical problem caused the aircraft to drop the heavy equipment.
http://news.lawinfo.com/story/2_ds_110984.cfm
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Athough this is now 'old news' (5 June) I consider it merits coming back onto R&N. I have trimmed out the usual 'jousting' from all the other threads and combined them here. I suspect it was moved before the 'time-expired' 5 June event was posted, and it was a fine line between JB and 'Spectators' Balcony' then, and JB won.
Please note that rather than whinge on a thread about where a thread is placed, there is a 'report to a moderator' function - small red exclamation mark bottom left, and the 'contact us' email function. None of us have the time to wander around every forum looking for bits here and there.
The senior mods may well decide to move this again, but here is the exposure you seek for the time being.
Please note that rather than whinge on a thread about where a thread is placed, there is a 'report to a moderator' function - small red exclamation mark bottom left, and the 'contact us' email function. None of us have the time to wander around every forum looking for bits here and there.
The senior mods may well decide to move this again, but here is the exposure you seek for the time being.
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This is a non-story. The flag dropped in the middle of nowhere, no one was injured and basically nothing happened.
As a slight aside, every other nation in the world would think it was great to see such support for their country - for reasons best known to themselves the English are embarrassed by passion for their country. I think it is great that this flag is being paraded around - I am Scottish by the way! All the whiners just need to get out more - may I suggest a trip to the pub later today to cheer on your country in the Quarter Final of the World Cup against Portugal?
As a slight aside, every other nation in the world would think it was great to see such support for their country - for reasons best known to themselves the English are embarrassed by passion for their country. I think it is great that this flag is being paraded around - I am Scottish by the way! All the whiners just need to get out more - may I suggest a trip to the pub later today to cheer on your country in the Quarter Final of the World Cup against Portugal?
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Sorry about the age of the news
BOAC, Thanks for the info about how to whinge to a moderator. I shall try to do better next time.
I took the photos of the News of the World flag incident on 5 June but did not realise until yesterday when I saw the helicopter with big flag thread that flying these huge flags from helicopters had become commonplace.
If it is correct that they are being extensively flown over major built up areas, it seems to me that there is an important issue and that some sort of control is needed.
On 5 June, the ballast system on the News of the World flag had apparently malfunctioned causing the flag to lose its shape. The helicopter appeared to labour (but this is a totally un-informed observation) for a couple of minutes before the decision was taken to jettison.
Was there any risk to the helicopter caused by the failure? If not, why did they not just fly up to nearby Booker?
There has to have been a risk to people on the ground, especially if the flag had landed on the A404.
Incidentally, this flag was nothing like a conventional banner, as I have seen all over the World. Are they properly regulated? Was an MOR required for the 5 June incident?
Informed comments welcome.
Stoic
I took the photos of the News of the World flag incident on 5 June but did not realise until yesterday when I saw the helicopter with big flag thread that flying these huge flags from helicopters had become commonplace.
If it is correct that they are being extensively flown over major built up areas, it seems to me that there is an important issue and that some sort of control is needed.
On 5 June, the ballast system on the News of the World flag had apparently malfunctioned causing the flag to lose its shape. The helicopter appeared to labour (but this is a totally un-informed observation) for a couple of minutes before the decision was taken to jettison.
Was there any risk to the helicopter caused by the failure? If not, why did they not just fly up to nearby Booker?
There has to have been a risk to people on the ground, especially if the flag had landed on the A404.
Incidentally, this flag was nothing like a conventional banner, as I have seen all over the World. Are they properly regulated? Was an MOR required for the 5 June incident?
Informed comments welcome.
Stoic
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I think the jettisoning raises a very serious safety issue.
When planning any underslung load (civil) in the UK, you always have to think very carefully before going anywhere where a jettison would endanger the public. That's why the CAA normally takes a dim view of any AOC holder planning to fly an underslung cargo over a main public road.
A danger is a hazard multiplied by a risk. The risk that such a flag as shown in the photo might have to be jettisoned suddenly may be small, but the hazard it might pose to road traffic could be enormous. That's what makes it dangerous. Doing something which is dangerous is not clever, even if it is lucrative.
Consider the probable consequences of that thing fluttering down onto the cab of a coach doing 70mph on a busy motorway. Are the fatal consequences a predictable event? I think they are. Are they avoidable? I think so.
I think the CAA should reconsider the wisdom of continuing to support this risky and unnecessary form of advertising.
When planning any underslung load (civil) in the UK, you always have to think very carefully before going anywhere where a jettison would endanger the public. That's why the CAA normally takes a dim view of any AOC holder planning to fly an underslung cargo over a main public road.
A danger is a hazard multiplied by a risk. The risk that such a flag as shown in the photo might have to be jettisoned suddenly may be small, but the hazard it might pose to road traffic could be enormous. That's what makes it dangerous. Doing something which is dangerous is not clever, even if it is lucrative.
Consider the probable consequences of that thing fluttering down onto the cab of a coach doing 70mph on a busy motorway. Are the fatal consequences a predictable event? I think they are. Are they avoidable? I think so.
I think the CAA should reconsider the wisdom of continuing to support this risky and unnecessary form of advertising.
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i did a jumpseat ride into london city yesterday and saw something towing a rather large flag along.the captain queried it but we turned onto final approach before we got any closer
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What's the position in the US ? Yesterday there was what looked like a Cessna 140 at about 800-1000 feet dragging a huge banner for a TV programme doing a couple of circuits of Manhattan. It seemed to be struggling hard against the wind with a loud engine noise and doing no more than about 50 knots. I did wonder about the flag if it dropped onto a bridge or a freeway....... They also don't seem to have a single engine glide-clear rule over there !
We discussed this operation at length here last year http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205578
(start at post 11) when it started up. Most (as above in this post) were concerned about dropping the flag, while those involved said it was not going to happen.
Well now it has. And comments now like
are just unprofessional in aviation terms. Presumably there will be an AAIB report.
(start at post 11) when it started up. Most (as above in this post) were concerned about dropping the flag, while those involved said it was not going to happen.
Well now it has. And comments now like
The flag dropped in the middle of nowhere, no one was injured
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Legal position?
Having now seen various photographs of the huge advertising banners and the helicopters flying them, it seems to be clear that the banners can be described as being "suspended from the helicopters".
If that is accepted, these outfits are already prohibited by article 65(5) from overflying "a congested area of a city, town or settlement" . It seems to me, therefore, that the flag operators may well have been in mutiple breach of this article recently, depending on what is the interpretation of the word "congested". What far example is a "congested settlement"?
As has been pointed out, if one of these large beasts landed on a motorway, it could certainly endanger the traffic and thus "any person or property". The operators may, therefore, also already be in breach of article 74 of the ANO.
Should these outfits be allowed to overfly congested roads? Personally, having witnessed a jettison, I think not.
Any legal opinion out there? But this seems like one for the CAA and the operators' AOCs (if that is still the way things are run in the UK).
Stoic
If that is accepted, these outfits are already prohibited by article 65(5) from overflying "a congested area of a city, town or settlement" . It seems to me, therefore, that the flag operators may well have been in mutiple breach of this article recently, depending on what is the interpretation of the word "congested". What far example is a "congested settlement"?
As has been pointed out, if one of these large beasts landed on a motorway, it could certainly endanger the traffic and thus "any person or property". The operators may, therefore, also already be in breach of article 74 of the ANO.
Should these outfits be allowed to overfly congested roads? Personally, having witnessed a jettison, I think not.
Any legal opinion out there? But this seems like one for the CAA and the operators' AOCs (if that is still the way things are run in the UK).
Stoic
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Originally Posted by Norman Stanley Fletcher
I think it is great that this flag is being paraded around - I am Scottish by the way!
SoS
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NSF,
As this is an aviation forum then I would suggest that this is not a non-story, as it holds ineterest for many.
The fact that nobody was hurt is not the issue, it is the fact that it could have caused serius problems is the issue.
Nobody was injured in the recent TNT 737 incident at BHX but would you suggest that it is a non-story?
As this is an aviation forum then I would suggest that this is not a non-story, as it holds ineterest for many.
The fact that nobody was hurt is not the issue, it is the fact that it could have caused serius problems is the issue.
Nobody was injured in the recent TNT 737 incident at BHX but would you suggest that it is a non-story?
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Identical aircraft and flag was flying over Birmingham during yesterday's match. I thought at the time that jettisoning the flag in an emergency would be a problem. The chances of the flag landing anywhere other than in a built up area would have been at least a hundred to one.
I don't know what the total weight of this flag, counter weight, and towing line is, but if the helicopter had an equivilent underslung hopper of concrete flying around the city, everyone would be up in arms.
Public safety ... or supporting overpaid blokes kicking a bag of wiind around a field. I know which i'd rather see!
I don't know what the total weight of this flag, counter weight, and towing line is, but if the helicopter had an equivilent underslung hopper of concrete flying around the city, everyone would be up in arms.
Public safety ... or supporting overpaid blokes kicking a bag of wiind around a field. I know which i'd rather see!
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Stoic, an interesting point about definition of "congested". In short, there isn't one, or at least the CAA consistently refuses to define it and it is certainly defined nowhere else. Thus you can, in the UK, be prosecuted for breaking a definition that you cannot know as it does not exist! How's that for justice? In reality it seems that an area is congested if the CAA prosecuter says so, he may take advice from a borough surveyor for instance, (notable experts on aviation related legal matters, of course) so it is effectively a personal, unique and somewhat arbitary judgement. Totally against every principle of the law, but that is how it is!
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I don't believe that patriotism should be an excuse to ignore safety. Shortly before the flag was dropped on 5/6 it had flown over several large towns (as well as my house). The A404 was very busy at the time, and the flag landed very close to the road. Had it landed on a car travelling at 70mph then the consequences could have been fatal.
Was an MOR filed, and if so does anyone know if the details are available?
Airclues
Was an MOR filed, and if so does anyone know if the details are available?
Airclues
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Originally Posted by Agaricus bisporus
Stoic, an interesting point about definition of "congested". In short, there isn't one, or at least the CAA consistently refuses to define it and it is certainly defined nowhere else. Thus you can, in the UK, be prosecuted for breaking a definition that you cannot know as it does not exist!
‘Congested area’ in relation to a city, town or settlement, means any area which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational purposes;
I still haven't seen any post on this thread address the vital issue of jettisoning such an enormous flag onto a road or railway. It's not the mass or solidity of the suspended load which is the issue. The issue is what would happen if such a huge piece of material were to be dropped onto moving vehicles on a public road.
What are the probable consequences of such a piece of material being dumped onto the windscreen of a moving vehicle? Injury? Death? Multiple deaths? If so, are such deaths foreseeable? If they are foreseeable, are they avoidable?
How is the carriage of suspended loads by helicopters over congested areas compatible with preventing those predictable deaths?