Demise of Flightdeck Visits

[Tomliner]

This is my first posting on Pprune-I apologise if I am going over old ground.I am interested in getting a general idea of how the professional flight crews,both cabin and flightdeck, feel about the ban on flightdeck visits following well known tragic events.My only connection with aviation is as a passenger and as a reasonably knowledgeable enthusiast.I developed an interest in ATC pocedures through airband radio and am now enjoying flightsims.I always used to enjoy visits to flightdecks where I would ask various questions based on what I had heard on the airband radio such as how to go direct to xyz or how to descend to flight levelxx so many miles before a particular point.On every visit I found the crews very helpul,polite and informative and got the impression that they allowed the visits because they wanted to rather than due to any customer relations pressure.I have often wondered if any sort of vetting or assesment was carried out by cabin crews before passing on a request for a visit.Best Wishes to you all,EricT

[oldlag53]

While flightdeck visits were a nice idea for pax, it was a total nonsense from a safety/security point of view. You've never been allowed to stand next to a bus driver and chat, or a train driver, so why a pilot??

[Rainboe]

Sorry to say, but I have to support the ban. Speaking with your head twisted around for so long to people when you are travelling at up to 600mph with up to 400 people with you is not such a good idea. I have had people wanting to 'bring their son up for a look' and appear with a babe in arms, and with a full nappy at that, I have had people up who you suddenly realise are inebriated, or just bored. We once had several visitors on the flight deck with both us pilots twisted around talking when I heard a very soft sound. Took a few seconds in all the talking to identify the noise as like a 747 engine surge. I turned around to see the exhaust gas temperature quietly winding up and closed the thrust lever and had to shut it down. I'm afraid it has gone for good, and I can't say I'm sorry. It's a shame genuine enthusiasts can no longer come up, but too many people have abused the privilege. It's too much of a distraction.

[treadigraph]

Thanks to a couple of very kind crews with Dan-Air and GB Airways I was lucky enough to enjoy several landings at the sharp-end a decade or so ago, and would dearly love to do some more - but I have to agree with Rainboe and Oldlag that in this day and age it aint on.

Don't think we chatted too much, but both Captains gave me a briefing of the approach we were about to fly and a quick "Cooks Tour" of the panel. Much appreciated!

Regarding the vetting, I was travelling with a friend who worked for Dan-Air, and whose wife worked for GB which seemed enough of a reference in those days!

[EastMids]

Used to do the flight deck jumpseat a lot when I worked on the ground in a UK airline - never overly inquisitive, but with a private certificate just happy to sit there and watch and listen to the pros do it properly. I guess that to some, my having a private licence makes me more dangerous than the rest these days!

Sadly, United's channel 9 is as close as I get these days - one of the reasons I like that airline! I know it still slightly irks a senior captain friend of mine that he has to let folks from the CAA and the like who he's never met before onto the flight deck from time to time, and yet a friend of 30 years can't visit.

Andy

[EastMids]

PS: With the exception of the FedEx incident when an off-duty staff member axed the crew, its hard for me to recall at present a documented incident where a jump-seater caused a significant accident. Except, that is, for the Aeroflot A310 when the driver let his kid sit in the front seat. Maybe therefore, the rules are actually there to protect the crew from themselves!

[treadigraph]

its hard for me to recall at present a documented incident where a jump-seater caused a significant accident

Wasn't there a similar accident to the A310 involving a USAF KC-135 and a crew member's wife? Probably completely wrong, I often am...

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Originally Posted by EastMids

PS: With the exception of the FedEx incident when an off-duty staff member axed the crew, its hard for me to recall at present a documented incident where a jump-seater caused a significant accident. Except, that is, for the Aeroflot A310 when the driver let his kid sit in the front seat. Maybe therefore, the rules are actually there to protect the crew from themselves!

Worst of all was the Pacific Southwest BAe 146 incident in 1987 in which an employee shot both pilots, causing the loss of the aircraft and all on board.

[Gingerbread Man]

I never took the opportunity to go up front when it was still allowed, and kick myself for it now (though I was a bit younger and shyer then), but I have been up a few times once the aircraft has landed. Not an inspiring view, but you still get to have a brief chat with the drivers and look at the gubbins, which is still worthwhile.

Ginger

[captwannabe]

It still happens. I know a FI who jumpseats with some of his buddies in the airlines. Shame it has gone for enthusiasts and wannabes like myself. Hopefully I'll be up there in the FO seat soon!

[Tomliner]

Many thanks to those who have replied so far.Please don't think that I am suggesting the re-instatement of such visits.Even I am not so naive as to not realise that the world has now changed.Perhaps I am just regretting the passing of a more innocent time.Based on some of the replies so far received, it would be interesting to know how on balance you ladies and gents of the flight crews perceived the ratio of keen enthusiast to casual observer.This is purely for my personal interest,I have no other motive for asking these questions.Best Wishes EricT

[GBALU53]

Cockpit visits

Well TOMLINER

I do understand where you are comming from, the only other way is by taking up flying lessons and becomming a private pilot, this might be the only way of getting into a cockpit now days??

[Avman]

It's not even available to travelling ATCers, unless it's all organised well in advance through the channels. I can't be bothered. I just stay in the back now, have a drink or three, and lament on how Osama won his battle so damn easily thanks to our brainless bureaucrats!

[PPRuNe Radar]

Sorry to say, but I have to support the ban. Speaking with your head twisted around for so long to people when you are travelling at up to 600mph with up to 400 people with you is not such a good idea. I have had people wanting to 'bring their son up for a look' and appear with a babe in arms, and with a full nappy at that, I have had people up who you suddenly realise are inebriated, or just bored. We once had several visitors on the flight deck with both us pilots twisted around talking when I heard a very soft sound. Took a few seconds in all the talking to identify the noise as like a 747 engine surge. I turned around to see the exhaust gas temperature quietly winding up and closed the thrust lever and had to shut it down.

Now if only someone up there was actually listening to the radio instead of watching the guages ......

Today was the worst day ever in my career of having to say things twice (or more), or getting airline ops to get plonkers on ACARS, or company relays to come and join everyone else on the operational frequency, etc, etc, etc.

Closing speeds of up to 1200 Mph and some still want to look at that cheese board

[skippyscage]

Originally Posted by oldlag53

You've never been allowed to stand next to a bus driver and chat, or a train driver, so why a pilot??

hey I used to be a bus driver and people used to stand and talk to me all the time - never minded it, especially if I knew them.

Had many great jump seat rides - Trident, B757, Herald, Electra, DC6, DC8, Bristol Frieghter, B747 - never overly chatty not wanting to distract the crew, but engage in conversation when invited.

[Rainboe]

Now if only someone up there was actually listening to the radio instead of watching the guages ......

What are you complaining about?......it was Rome Radar who was getting ignored!

[Bealzebub]

Now if only someone up there was actually listening to the radio instead of watching the guages ......

Today was the worst day ever in my career of having to say things twice (or more), or getting airline ops to get plonkers on ACARS, or company relays to come and join everyone else on the operational frequency, etc, etc, etc.

Closing speeds of up to 1200 Mph and some still want to look at that cheese board

A bit sad if this is what you think of some pilots and perhaps you would benefit from refamiliarizing yourself with the the world upstairs.

If you did you would quickly realize that it is endemic in parts of UK airspace that some controllers are so busy issuing multiple instructions and frequency changes that they do not leave any gaps for aircraft to report in. So much so that when they do 3 or 4 all jump in and squeal at once to no effect. Often an aircraft and a controller will talk at the same time and no one hears each other. The result controllers are saying things twice and so are pilots.
I sympathize that today was the worst day in your career for saying things twice. Every few months I feel a similar new record being set. It is becoming abysmal.

Calls on company frequencies should whenever possible be done in level cruise, but for one reason or another this is often not possible. Many of these calls are required and the pilots making them are not "plonkers" by virtue of the fact. There are 2 pilots and at least one should always be monitoring the ATC frequency. Sometimes calls are missed on both sides because of unwarrranted distractions and this is something to be guarded against, but the reasons may not always be why you think and I return again to the deteriorating state of ATC/ Aircraft communications in parts of UK airspace.

I have little doubt this is something that can only be remedied by increased discipline on both sides and by the always elusive requirement for more and better investment in the infrastructure. However any perception by anybody that it is a result of "plonkers" obsessed with their acars, company frequencies, or cheeseboards is inaccurate and unhelpful.

I am not sure this was a reply aimed at the spotters ?

[PPRuNe Radar]

The sectors I was working were not overly busy, so the problem you highlight about UK airspace is not relevant (although I agree it is relevant for many parts of our environment). So, in the examples I experienced, the chances of me 'stepping on' someone are credible for one transmission ..... but stretching it a little to think that everytime I transmitted to a particular aircraft or two that they would also transmit to talk to me at the same time on each occasion, and that they also did so each time a relay aircraft did too.

As MOR forms now get filled in for 'Prolonged Loss of Communications (PLOC)' events, the CAA can no doubt monitor trends in terms of airspace affected, and the individual operators who experience it. This should help find out the causes of the phenomenon, and in the past has helped identify technical reasons such as 'sleeping receivers' thus allowing modifications to be put in place for the kit. The best one I heard (in terms of incredulity) was because the Captain had to leave the cockpit and answer a call of nature, and the inexperienced FO left the frequency to talk to company for a while. So whilst rare, such things do happen

Getting back to the topic, I side with Rainboe. Although the PR effect of allowing non industry people to see what goes on has some value, I don't think it is great a benefit as them not being there during the flight, since it is removing a potential distraction. Sorry folks Air Defence authorities in Europe are very very twitchy these days and it is only a matter of minutes in some airspace where any failed attempts to communicate will result in the interceptors getting airborne.

Industry jumpseaters on the other hand could be argued as beneficial in some cases. ATCOs, to provide education on both sides. Ops folk, to see the pressures and working practices pilots have on them. Engineers, to get the beers in on the night stop. And so on

Personally, I make the arrangements to jump seat a few times a year and always find it useful in a two way education exercise, as well as flying as P1 myself in a GA aircraft regularly. So I am reasonably familiar with the world upstairs. How about pilot visits to ATC facilities in return ?? They are like ATCOs doing fam flights .... like hens teeth.

[Tomliner]

Again,thanks to all who have replied.My own thoughts are that even if the terrible events of 9/11 hadn't happened these visits would have eventually been stopped primarily due to the amazing advance of flightsim software and the perceived potential for misbehaviour on a flightdeck by a less than responsible individual flightsim user.I speak as a flightsim user myself and I believe that the overwhelming majority of users are responsible enthusiasts.However,the risk of something untoward happening would be too great for the authorities to accept.Best Wishes EricT

[Turroncin]

I don't see the problem in one of the pilots looking in the opposite direction whilst the plane is flying. After all, single F/O often spend most of the flight chatting up crew in the forward galley