A380 - combined threads
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
From: UK
When it comes to wake vortices, it's worth remembering that size isn't always everything. The 757 actually created vortices more powerful than those of the 747 Classic, due to the advances in aerodynamically-efficient wing design between the mid '60s and late '70s.
I also find that most of these noise-monitoring groups won't be happy until all airfields are situated hundreds of miles from the nearest town.
I also find that most of these noise-monitoring groups won't be happy until all airfields are situated hundreds of miles from the nearest town.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: sunwards
Very questionable indeed what that Mr. Wolfgang Schubert writes....
Where did he get his 'facts' from...and was the actual vertical flight profile of that flight ever considered???
First of all, landing conditions at the time the A380 made that 'working visit' to Frankfurt were anything but 'ideal', and anyone who saw the landing on TV will agree that it was 'firm and safe' but by no means 'picturebook-style'!
In a TV-Interview, the pilot (Absmeier) stated that the approach was 'on instruments'.... HEY, I didn't know that the A380 was already certified for IFR-Ops! ;-)
But never mind, everything regarding the A380 and Airbus is highly political and any flaws are covered by a blanket of silence.... or legal proceedings, following the principle of 'If you are not FOR us, you are AGAINST us!'
Frankfurt Airport, too, is a highly political issue - night curfew, new runway, departure and arrival routes, new maintenance hangar, freight centre...and many more. So, it is no wonder that extremes (interests) collide here very intensely and all the sources quoted in that newspaper article are very biased.
Like always, the truth is somewhere in between!
From what I heard (and saw) of the approaching A380, it was not louder than most other 'Heavies' approaching FRA, and certainly a lot more quiet than some of the US Military freighters which used to operate into FRA until recently. But then, the fog may have swallowed some of the noise....
Can't say much about the take-off on Sunday, except, that it was 'picturebook-like flat' and the pilot seemed to be in no real hurry to reach altitude. Why should he, anyway, as he was going to do some sort of low 'fly-over' of Frankfurt City in VFR (which he soon abandoned due to poor visibilty/low cloud!)?!?!?
IMHO, for all practical purposes, that newspaper article is for the wastebin, just stirring for the sake of stirring (and be invited to more press conferences as an (self-appointed) 'aviation specialist editor'.
Anyone else with more facts????
Cheers!
;-)
Where did he get his 'facts' from...and was the actual vertical flight profile of that flight ever considered???
First of all, landing conditions at the time the A380 made that 'working visit' to Frankfurt were anything but 'ideal', and anyone who saw the landing on TV will agree that it was 'firm and safe' but by no means 'picturebook-style'!
In a TV-Interview, the pilot (Absmeier) stated that the approach was 'on instruments'.... HEY, I didn't know that the A380 was already certified for IFR-Ops! ;-)
But never mind, everything regarding the A380 and Airbus is highly political and any flaws are covered by a blanket of silence.... or legal proceedings, following the principle of 'If you are not FOR us, you are AGAINST us!'
Frankfurt Airport, too, is a highly political issue - night curfew, new runway, departure and arrival routes, new maintenance hangar, freight centre...and many more. So, it is no wonder that extremes (interests) collide here very intensely and all the sources quoted in that newspaper article are very biased.
Like always, the truth is somewhere in between!
From what I heard (and saw) of the approaching A380, it was not louder than most other 'Heavies' approaching FRA, and certainly a lot more quiet than some of the US Military freighters which used to operate into FRA until recently. But then, the fog may have swallowed some of the noise....
Can't say much about the take-off on Sunday, except, that it was 'picturebook-like flat' and the pilot seemed to be in no real hurry to reach altitude. Why should he, anyway, as he was going to do some sort of low 'fly-over' of Frankfurt City in VFR (which he soon abandoned due to poor visibilty/low cloud!)?!?!?
IMHO, for all practical purposes, that newspaper article is for the wastebin, just stirring for the sake of stirring (and be invited to more press conferences as an (self-appointed) 'aviation specialist editor'.
Anyone else with more facts????
Cheers!
;-)
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 882
Likes: 0
From: Skagness on the beach
You know I am yanking everyone's chain. 
I agree with Topic Review jollyikarus that the conditions were not ideal and certainly not certification level, but when you are comparing the data of the A380 to other aircraft flights made on the same day and something shows up you have to question it. airbus has been telling the world that the A380 would be 50% quieter than a 747-400. It should have been at least less, but according to these people it is not.
No QC2 takeoff and its a dead bird.
I agree with Topic Review jollyikarus that the conditions were not ideal and certainly not certification level, but when you are comparing the data of the A380 to other aircraft flights made on the same day and something shows up you have to question it. airbus has been telling the world that the A380 would be 50% quieter than a 747-400. It should have been at least less, but according to these people it is not.
No QC2 takeoff and its a dead bird.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: sunwards
747FOCAL
-------------------------------------------------------
but when you are comparing the data of the A380 to other aircraft flights made on the same day and something shows up you have to question it. airbus has been telling the world that the A380 would be 50% quieter than a 747-400. It should have been at least less, but according to these people it is not.
---------------------------------------------------------
Who has the REAL figures about other flights that same day?????
I for sure don't!
To me, the whole approach looked like a 'high drag/high power' approach - more for stability and precision than anything else. But then...I wasn't on board.
A few weeks ago, when the bird visited Hamburg during Open Day at Finkenwerder and did three turns over the airfield, it appeared to be VERY quiet. But then....he was probably just soaring with all engines set to idle.
That the A380 can take off 'steeper' than in FRA could already be seen on the first flight in TLS! Weights were probably quite different, though.
Fact remains that all AIRBUS issues - and any concerning Frankfurt Airport or Hamburg/Finkenwerder - are highly political and biased! No room for constructive truth.
It is also very interesting to see which path some of the contributions to this particular thread are taking. IMHO a bit too emotional to be factual or in any way constructive.
Cheers!
:-)
-------------------------------------------------------
but when you are comparing the data of the A380 to other aircraft flights made on the same day and something shows up you have to question it. airbus has been telling the world that the A380 would be 50% quieter than a 747-400. It should have been at least less, but according to these people it is not.
---------------------------------------------------------
Who has the REAL figures about other flights that same day?????
I for sure don't!
To me, the whole approach looked like a 'high drag/high power' approach - more for stability and precision than anything else. But then...I wasn't on board.
A few weeks ago, when the bird visited Hamburg during Open Day at Finkenwerder and did three turns over the airfield, it appeared to be VERY quiet. But then....he was probably just soaring with all engines set to idle.
That the A380 can take off 'steeper' than in FRA could already be seen on the first flight in TLS! Weights were probably quite different, though.
Fact remains that all AIRBUS issues - and any concerning Frankfurt Airport or Hamburg/Finkenwerder - are highly political and biased! No room for constructive truth.
It is also very interesting to see which path some of the contributions to this particular thread are taking. IMHO a bit too emotional to be factual or in any way constructive.
Cheers!
:-)
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: beverley
Its a bit hostile in here
The 747 will always look better though, and just as Concorde was loud as you like,people loved it,the same is said of the 747.
But I don't think there will be too many people banging on about "that nice new French plane"
The 747 will always look better though, and just as Concorde was loud as you like,people loved it,the same is said of the 747.
But I don't think there will be too many people banging on about "that nice new French plane"
I call you back
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
From: Alpha quadrant
The distance to the next jet for instance was with ten miles so large that the A 380 could land "with low speed and therefore quietly".
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 256
Likes: 1
From: Jetting across the universe..
The measurements of the aircraft noise service in Moerfelden Walldorf, which considers itself as an "independent non--governmental organization" and is predominantly organized in the airport development opposition, show the opposite.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: sunwards
--------------------------------------------------
Eh it's not as if either runway at FRA is limiting for landing so WTF is he
on about?
---------------------------------------------------
What else do you expect from a wannabe (aviation) journalist???
I wonder if the person he cited (Raab) will ever recognize his statement in this context. But who cares?
Hey guys.....it is Showtime - Airbus Showtime!
Cheers!
;-)
Eh it's not as if either runway at FRA is limiting for landing so WTF is he
on about?
---------------------------------------------------
What else do you expect from a wannabe (aviation) journalist???
I wonder if the person he cited (Raab) will ever recognize his statement in this context. But who cares?
Hey guys.....it is Showtime - Airbus Showtime!
Cheers!
;-)
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,320
Likes: 9
From: Switzerland, Singapore
May I help some of the not initiated ppruners here about some basic facts about physics:
65 to 70 decibels are the volume you have at the moment in your office when you have your printer on or someone is talking to you in a normal voice.
Please read the Wikipedia article below:
Decibel scale
Landing traffic is never a noise problem, although some airport-neighbour-committees say so. "Look, there's an airplane - and if you listen there's also a sound". While the car going through the street is much louder.
Take off noise is a much greater problem indead. If those French Airbus-Engineers made it possible that the taking off A380 is at nearly office noice, then they have done a good job.
Dani
65 to 70 decibels are the volume you have at the moment in your office when you have your printer on or someone is talking to you in a normal voice.
Please read the Wikipedia article below:
Decibel scale
Landing traffic is never a noise problem, although some airport-neighbour-committees say so. "Look, there's an airplane - and if you listen there's also a sound". While the car going through the street is much louder.
Take off noise is a much greater problem indead. If those French Airbus-Engineers made it possible that the taking off A380 is at nearly office noice, then they have done a good job.
Dani
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
From: Australia
meh, i dont know what everyone is whinging about, the louder the better in my narrow minded opinion. 707's 727's 732's an 74 calssics at full noise on take off...mmmm now there is a real aircraft.
Seems like the world has turned into a bunch of pansys. I bet the people who make all the noise about aircraft are the ones who cannot afford to fly, and live in the poor socio economic arears surrounding most field, moving in knowing there was an airfield there that was there long before housing went in......
Seems like the world has turned into a bunch of pansys. I bet the people who make all the noise about aircraft are the ones who cannot afford to fly, and live in the poor socio economic arears surrounding most field, moving in knowing there was an airfield there that was there long before housing went in......
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: australia
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 2,033
Likes: 14
From: London, UK
Dani,
Actually some airliners now are louder on the approach than on take-off.
Modern high by-pass turbofans can be incredibly quiet. One of the major sources of noise is now the airframe. In landing mode flaps/slats are extended further creating greater disturbance in the airflow thus creating more noise.
Also departing aircraft clean-up quickly ie retracting the gear immediately after rotation, whereas landing aircraft have the gear down for a long time. The gear creates a LOT of airframe noise.
Actually some airliners now are louder on the approach than on take-off.
Modern high by-pass turbofans can be incredibly quiet. One of the major sources of noise is now the airframe. In landing mode flaps/slats are extended further creating greater disturbance in the airflow thus creating more noise.
Also departing aircraft clean-up quickly ie retracting the gear immediately after rotation, whereas landing aircraft have the gear down for a long time. The gear creates a LOT of airframe noise.
aka Capt PPRuNe
Joined: May 1995
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 3
From: UK
May I remind all the 'enthusiasts' who appear unable to contain their pro or anti Airbus/Boeing feelings that this is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network and I won't entertain continued amateurish posts about your petty opinions whether Airbus or Boeing have got it right or do it better. 
If you feel the need to defend your honour or honor, depending which side of the Boeing/Airbus debate your 'enthusiast' leanings take you, then there are other forums on this website that cater for your needs. This forum is not the palce for enthusiasts to air their views on the pro's or con's of whose aircraft is bigger or better.
As potential pilots of these new aircraft or comparable existing ones, we can expect a bit of banter from time to time, just as we do when gathering for post trip relaxation when downroute. What we don't expect is a bunch of enthusiasts butting in with their aggressive and misplaced affections for particular aircraft manufacturers.
So, if you want to post about how aroused you get every time you think about a particular aircraft type or you want to have an argument about which manufacturers' technology turns you on more, please go visit the 'Spectators Balcony' forum where you can mudsling to your hearts desire. Having your posts deleted is a waste of my time and yours. This forum is not the place for anything that isn't directly related to current aircraft types that are flown in non-military scenarios by professional pilots. When the A380 enters service then no doubt there will be space and time on here for the various incidents which are bound to occur.
In the meantime, new airliners undergoing testing, old airliners now consigned to the history books and museums, general aviation and recreational aircraft all have their own forums on here and this isn't one of them!
If you feel the need to defend your honour or honor, depending which side of the Boeing/Airbus debate your 'enthusiast' leanings take you, then there are other forums on this website that cater for your needs. This forum is not the palce for enthusiasts to air their views on the pro's or con's of whose aircraft is bigger or better.
As potential pilots of these new aircraft or comparable existing ones, we can expect a bit of banter from time to time, just as we do when gathering for post trip relaxation when downroute. What we don't expect is a bunch of enthusiasts butting in with their aggressive and misplaced affections for particular aircraft manufacturers.
So, if you want to post about how aroused you get every time you think about a particular aircraft type or you want to have an argument about which manufacturers' technology turns you on more, please go visit the 'Spectators Balcony' forum where you can mudsling to your hearts desire. Having your posts deleted is a waste of my time and yours. This forum is not the place for anything that isn't directly related to current aircraft types that are flown in non-military scenarios by professional pilots. When the A380 enters service then no doubt there will be space and time on here for the various incidents which are bound to occur.
In the meantime, new airliners undergoing testing, old airliners now consigned to the history books and museums, general aviation and recreational aircraft all have their own forums on here and this isn't one of them!
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
From: Not Ardua enough
Before anyone shouts spotter, you'll notice I took these pics airside !
Low Go round gear up, hardly noisey....!
This was full TR and she stopped in under half the runway length after an admittedly short hop/Low Gross to Finkenwerder from Toulouse. But noisy ? Certainly no noiser than any other Heavy I've seen and heard.
This is noise !!
Low Go round gear up, hardly noisey....!
This was full TR and she stopped in under half the runway length after an admittedly short hop/Low Gross to Finkenwerder from Toulouse. But noisy ? Certainly no noiser than any other Heavy I've seen and heard.
This is noise !!
Last edited by ARINC; 9th November 2005 at 19:03.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Duuuuummmmkopf
Groundloop
You may be right only if the acft in approach is starting a goaround.
Do not confuse this with flaps or even a parashute (if installed).
İf you still do not believe your ears please take them under the approach part of any airfield and just use them properly
You may be right only if the acft in approach is starting a goaround.
Do not confuse this with flaps or even a parashute (if installed).
İf you still do not believe your ears please take them under the approach part of any airfield and just use them properly