Embraer Questions
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Embraer Questions
Having made over 100 flights with BMI on EMB 135/145's, I have had only one serious delay and one cancellation due to technical problems - a good performance, but comfort-wise I preferred the Fokker 100s (where are they now?), but what do the professionals think to these aircraft?
From time to time, passengers have been requested to move seats due to 'the trim of the aircraft@ Most recently, two passengers were asked to move from row 7 to 18 as the "aircraft is out of trim" according to the CC. Given the amount of power involved, and the relative weights of the passengers compared with the aircraft, why is this necessary? Incidentally, I noticed prior to boarding on the last occasion that the rear tailplane was already pointed down to force maximum 'nose up'.
From time to time, passengers have been requested to move seats due to 'the trim of the aircraft@ Most recently, two passengers were asked to move from row 7 to 18 as the "aircraft is out of trim" according to the CC. Given the amount of power involved, and the relative weights of the passengers compared with the aircraft, why is this necessary? Incidentally, I noticed prior to boarding on the last occasion that the rear tailplane was already pointed down to force maximum 'nose up'.
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The 145 is prone to being out of trim, particularly with very light pax loads. Check in agents also aren't trained with any real appreciation of the effect that seating pax in one part of the a/c only has on the trim. It is therefore possible that pax will be required to be redistributed around the cabin to ensure a more even distribution of weight.
Trim has nothing to do with a/c power or pax weights. The simplest way to think of it, is to consider the a/c as a giant see-saw, with the main wheels acting as the pivot point. If the a/c is tail heavy, then it is going to sit on its bum, so therefore it has to be slightly nose heavy. However, if it is too nose heavy, then the tailplane cannot generate enough force at at take off speeds to rotate the nose into the air, and then you end up making a hole in the hedge at the end of the runway. What you end up with is a range of acceptable trim positions where the a/c centre of gravity lies within set safe limits as decided by the manufacturer, so the a/c will not tip over on the ground and can be controlled safely and easily in the air.
As for the tailplane position you noticed, it tends to adopt that position anyway when on the ground.
Trim has nothing to do with a/c power or pax weights. The simplest way to think of it, is to consider the a/c as a giant see-saw, with the main wheels acting as the pivot point. If the a/c is tail heavy, then it is going to sit on its bum, so therefore it has to be slightly nose heavy. However, if it is too nose heavy, then the tailplane cannot generate enough force at at take off speeds to rotate the nose into the air, and then you end up making a hole in the hedge at the end of the runway. What you end up with is a range of acceptable trim positions where the a/c centre of gravity lies within set safe limits as decided by the manufacturer, so the a/c will not tip over on the ground and can be controlled safely and easily in the air.
As for the tailplane position you noticed, it tends to adopt that position anyway when on the ground.
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I would add 2 points:
- most dispatchers are trained properly and appreciate the requirements to spread the load to keep the aircraft in trim. However at certain airports there is little appreciation. The computerised loadsheets are generally so (too) 'accurate' that the movement of a single passenger may put the aircraft out of trim. If we do a manual loadsheet, the width of our pencil line on the appropriate graph means that things are necessarily less accurate. Believe it or not, in most cases there is really no problem and the aircraft will fly in either case!!
- the tailplane sits parked in whatever position we leave the trim set. Usually, on the ground it is reset to +7 or +8 during the turnaround checks. This will cause the position you observed. During the walkaround check we look up to confirm this against a scale marked on the front of the fairing.
LOST
- most dispatchers are trained properly and appreciate the requirements to spread the load to keep the aircraft in trim. However at certain airports there is little appreciation. The computerised loadsheets are generally so (too) 'accurate' that the movement of a single passenger may put the aircraft out of trim. If we do a manual loadsheet, the width of our pencil line on the appropriate graph means that things are necessarily less accurate. Believe it or not, in most cases there is really no problem and the aircraft will fly in either case!!
- the tailplane sits parked in whatever position we leave the trim set. Usually, on the ground it is reset to +7 or +8 during the turnaround checks. This will cause the position you observed. During the walkaround check we look up to confirm this against a scale marked on the front of the fairing.
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Personally, and as pax, I love the little beasty. Flying out of New York and DC on a regular basis I've always been impressed by the turnaround times, and deplaning has always been extremely quick. I've also liked the seats and the overall 'bizjet' feel since the first time I flew in a 145 almost a decade ago.
The 145's performance has also always been sprightly: best ride I had on a scheduled service was last year when an ERJ driver made the most of a short take-off window in-between a line of squalls after an hour on the ramp. I'd swear we went vertical !
Okay, carry-on baggage can be a pain, but that's par for the course these days. By comparison, the newer 170/190 feels claustrophobic, and extremely plasticy.
All the larger aircraft, including the CRJs and the F70/100, loose that bizjet feel. But I guess airline economics will dictate it's demise...
I/C
The 145's performance has also always been sprightly: best ride I had on a scheduled service was last year when an ERJ driver made the most of a short take-off window in-between a line of squalls after an hour on the ramp. I'd swear we went vertical !
Okay, carry-on baggage can be a pain, but that's par for the course these days. By comparison, the newer 170/190 feels claustrophobic, and extremely plasticy.
All the larger aircraft, including the CRJs and the F70/100, loose that bizjet feel. But I guess airline economics will dictate it's demise...
I/C
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Thanks for the responses - so the answer is; nice aircraft but very trim sensitive!
I 've always found them quite comfortable - much better than a Fly-Be CRJ or Dash 9 to Belfast. Seats in those are as hard as wooden benches!
I 've always found them quite comfortable - much better than a Fly-Be CRJ or Dash 9 to Belfast. Seats in those are as hard as wooden benches!
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The reason why bmi regional aircraft are a bit "nose heavy"is that the 145 was designed with thrust reverse as optional fit,regionals dont have thrust reversers and so they are 260 kg,s lighter at the rear.With business passengers with few bags they mostly have to carry some ballast, with lighter loads they move the passengers rearwards.Asking to move forwards can create some trim problems you probably will never be refused moving rearwards.
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Slip of the finger - I think a Dash 9 is a GE locomotive used on North American railroads.
Memory fading, but it must have been over a year ago from LBA. I do remember though the Captain running into the terminal building for a quick fag.
Memory fading, but it must have been over a year ago from LBA. I do remember though the Captain running into the terminal building for a quick fag.
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Trim
(This is in no way aimed at anyone on this thread in case your wondering!)
It does annoy me when pax think they know better either because they are regular air travellers or whatever. In this case I mean the issue with moving pax for trim purposes.
I'm cabin crew and work on the ever-so-trim-sensitive Dash Q400. When the loads are light it is SO important that pax are sat in the correct bays otherwise as Maud Charlie says above you can run into some real flight controlability issues.
At our airline the No. 1 has to go down the cabin with a small pad marked with the seats and bays, and the total no. of pax for each bay has to be written down and handed the the captain to check with the loadsheet prior to departure. When the loads are lighter you find that a lot of pax think 'Oh, think I'll sit there instead if that's everyone on board now!' without asking first.
This of course means we then have to begin checking boarding passes of every pax and asking them to re-take their original seat. When I explain to them the reason why they have to move they laugh in your face and say such things as 'I've never heard of anything so stupid in my life!', 'But this a/c is empty!' and the classic 'I can't see how moving a few people makes any difference!'.
People don't seem to realise that every a/c is different and we are not just moving them around because we think it's a fun way to p155 them off!
Anyone else on here regularly have the same problems and if so do you have anything quick and simple to explain to them in few words why they need to move?
T
It does annoy me when pax think they know better either because they are regular air travellers or whatever. In this case I mean the issue with moving pax for trim purposes.
I'm cabin crew and work on the ever-so-trim-sensitive Dash Q400. When the loads are light it is SO important that pax are sat in the correct bays otherwise as Maud Charlie says above you can run into some real flight controlability issues.
At our airline the No. 1 has to go down the cabin with a small pad marked with the seats and bays, and the total no. of pax for each bay has to be written down and handed the the captain to check with the loadsheet prior to departure. When the loads are lighter you find that a lot of pax think 'Oh, think I'll sit there instead if that's everyone on board now!' without asking first.
This of course means we then have to begin checking boarding passes of every pax and asking them to re-take their original seat. When I explain to them the reason why they have to move they laugh in your face and say such things as 'I've never heard of anything so stupid in my life!', 'But this a/c is empty!' and the classic 'I can't see how moving a few people makes any difference!'.
People don't seem to realise that every a/c is different and we are not just moving them around because we think it's a fun way to p155 them off!
Anyone else on here regularly have the same problems and if so do you have anything quick and simple to explain to them in few words why they need to move?
T
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The original post was made out of curiosity as I thought there must be a logical explanation - I understand the principles of trim, but was just surprised how sensitive aircraft can be.
Trislander, as a regular pax I often sympathise with the attitutes of fellow pax towards the CC as too many treat the CC as second class citizens. On the last incident of moving pax around, this was taken in good humour, but previously I have seen arrogant businessmen treat CC with utter contempt - a disgraceful attitute from so-called professionals.
The main arguments I have seen usually centre around the amount/size of cabin baggage. I understand that airlines have rules/regulations for good reason, and it amazes me why other pax cannot see this when arguing about issues that could compromise their own (and my) safety. particularly when the pax are breaking the airlines rules.
Incidentally I once saw a captain from another airline travelling as pax on BMI with hand baggage on the floor of front row seat arguing with the CC that he need not move it - the CC handled the matter firmly and diplomatically and won despite severe belittling from the captain (who ought to know better).
Trislander, as a regular pax I often sympathise with the attitutes of fellow pax towards the CC as too many treat the CC as second class citizens. On the last incident of moving pax around, this was taken in good humour, but previously I have seen arrogant businessmen treat CC with utter contempt - a disgraceful attitute from so-called professionals.
The main arguments I have seen usually centre around the amount/size of cabin baggage. I understand that airlines have rules/regulations for good reason, and it amazes me why other pax cannot see this when arguing about issues that could compromise their own (and my) safety. particularly when the pax are breaking the airlines rules.
Incidentally I once saw a captain from another airline travelling as pax on BMI with hand baggage on the floor of front row seat arguing with the CC that he need not move it - the CC handled the matter firmly and diplomatically and won despite severe belittling from the captain (who ought to know better).
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Cabin crew are generally quite expert at dealing with these prats. It amazes me how often they have to put up with this kind of crap though. An argument about seating or baggage is often just a foretaste of trouble, especially with a couple of drinks to come. Unfortunately, too many CC tell us drivers after the event, once the passengers have disembarked. In these happy times I have no hesitation in dealing with rude / disruptive passengers and will offload them in a heartbeat if necessary, even if it is Captain X. I'd rather do it before a flight than arrange for the Police to meet us at destination.
