Aer Lingus to order 3 A380's
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Aer Lingus to order 3 A380's
Thought this might be worth mentioing.
Got talking to someone out at Dublin Airport while planspotting who's dad is an A330 pilot for Aer Lingus. He said his dad along with other pilots has been informed that Aer Lingus are now considering ordering 3 A380's in the future after the completion of the new terminal along with some work done on the existing runway 28 to accomodate the plane.
How Aer Lingus are planning to afford this I've been told, is by buying loads of A320's but aren't using all of them. Airbus do send out inspectors though to make sure they're being used in order to get a discount for the A380 and they're making it look like they are using them so they'll be discounted on the price of the A380 in the future. And knowing Aer Lingus they'll then go to Boeing and say:
'Airbus have just said we can have an A380 for this price, can you offer any cheaper for a 747Adv?' .
They did this when deciding between buying the 737NG and A320 order and got all of their A320's for cheap.
I think it'd be great to see A380's at Dublin in the future and this is definitly a plane the Dublin Airport Authority need to be planning for with the new terminal 2 design and also the new extension of runway 29 into 28R in about 7 years time.
And on another note, I was informed by the Dublin Airport Fire Chief that they're still in the designing stages of T2 and have brought in designers and consultants who worked on T5 at Heathrow. They're still trying to decide between building on the east or the west side.
Anyway I hope this rumour turns out to be true in the future but its only a matter of time until we find out. Aer Lingus have still yet to decide on whether to order the new A350 or 787.
Got talking to someone out at Dublin Airport while planspotting who's dad is an A330 pilot for Aer Lingus. He said his dad along with other pilots has been informed that Aer Lingus are now considering ordering 3 A380's in the future after the completion of the new terminal along with some work done on the existing runway 28 to accomodate the plane.
How Aer Lingus are planning to afford this I've been told, is by buying loads of A320's but aren't using all of them. Airbus do send out inspectors though to make sure they're being used in order to get a discount for the A380 and they're making it look like they are using them so they'll be discounted on the price of the A380 in the future. And knowing Aer Lingus they'll then go to Boeing and say:
'Airbus have just said we can have an A380 for this price, can you offer any cheaper for a 747Adv?' .
They did this when deciding between buying the 737NG and A320 order and got all of their A320's for cheap.
I think it'd be great to see A380's at Dublin in the future and this is definitly a plane the Dublin Airport Authority need to be planning for with the new terminal 2 design and also the new extension of runway 29 into 28R in about 7 years time.
And on another note, I was informed by the Dublin Airport Fire Chief that they're still in the designing stages of T2 and have brought in designers and consultants who worked on T5 at Heathrow. They're still trying to decide between building on the east or the west side.
Anyway I hope this rumour turns out to be true in the future but its only a matter of time until we find out. Aer Lingus have still yet to decide on whether to order the new A350 or 787.
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Erm....
am I the only one who has trouble finding a route for these humungous aircraft in EI's route structure?
And whats this about Airbus cutting them a deal? "Buy X ammount of A320s from us and we'll throw in some A380s for cheap"
Thats dumping aircraft. Thats illegal and highly anti competative.
Is it any wonder they're to be investigated by the WTO?
Don't get me wrong dude... not intention to impugn yourself... just I find this information highly suspect.
am I the only one who has trouble finding a route for these humungous aircraft in EI's route structure?
And whats this about Airbus cutting them a deal? "Buy X ammount of A320s from us and we'll throw in some A380s for cheap"
Thats dumping aircraft. Thats illegal and highly anti competative.
Is it any wonder they're to be investigated by the WTO?
Don't get me wrong dude... not intention to impugn yourself... just I find this information highly suspect.
Last edited by Bmused55; 10th Jul 2005 at 08:20.
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Hmm ... all sounds very unlikely. They buy more aircraft than they need and then get aircraft much bigger than they need?
Don't think so. I just don't see the 380 figuring in EI's plans for a very, very long time (if at all).
My personal view is that the most likely option for EI's long haul is the 777. I think the main thing EI needs now is certainty as far as the ability to start new long haul flights is concerned - particularly to the US.
Don't think so. I just don't see the 380 figuring in EI's plans for a very, very long time (if at all).
My personal view is that the most likely option for EI's long haul is the 777. I think the main thing EI needs now is certainty as far as the ability to start new long haul flights is concerned - particularly to the US.
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Hmm dunno about the 777.
If they needed more range and seats than the A330, the A340-300 would be the natural choice if they indeed are fixed on an all airbus fleet.
But if they want performance/economics above commonality then the 777 is top player.
And lets face it, head to head, commonality is the only thing the A340-300 has over the 777 in this case.
If they needed more range and seats than the A330, the A340-300 would be the natural choice if they indeed are fixed on an all airbus fleet.
But if they want performance/economics above commonality then the 777 is top player.
And lets face it, head to head, commonality is the only thing the A340-300 has over the 777 in this case.
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I don't think they need it.
I was just hypothesizing in relation to akerosid's suggestion of EI going for the 777.
Note the use of the word "if"
To explain... if EI were to purchase the 777, it could indicate the need for increased range and seats.
As opposed to simply getting more A330s.
I was just hypothesizing in relation to akerosid's suggestion of EI going for the 777.
Note the use of the word "if"
To explain... if EI were to purchase the 777, it could indicate the need for increased range and seats.
As opposed to simply getting more A330s.
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Lads get your facts straight before doubting the info.
Aer Lingus have already announced they are to introduce new routes to South Africa, Middle East, Australia, Asia, 22 new routes to the US and several new routes in Europe over the next couple of years. To do this they need new planes and the only way they could get the money for these new planes was through privatising some of the airline.
The government wouldn't give the airline the €1B they needed for new planes so they decided to sell off a majority stake of the airline in order for it to make money which it will. But at the same time they retain 25% or more in order to have control over whatever decisions are brought to the agenda.
With this new plan, Aer Lingus can have tonnes of investors from all over the world who've been eager to get a share in the airline. And therefore with new investors pooring money into the airline, they can finally get new planes. The redundancies are also dieing off now and the job cuts are also finally coming to an end too so Aer Lingus will be making a lot of money in the near future.
Again get your facts straight, its not illegal at all. Airbus offered Qantas a load of cheap A330's if they ordered some A380's which they did. Airbus are being brought to the WTO because of being given government aid launch funds which Boeing also get and they too are being brought to the WTO as well.
And what you obviously don't know either is that no airline as of yet has configured the A380 to seat its capable 800 passengers. Most airlines have configured it to a 3 class configuration and it will seat about 500 people and Aer Lingus already carry about 400 people on all of their trans-atlantic flights in their A330's.
Its uneconomical to configure an aircraft to carry that many passengers and I guarantee no airline will ever do it in the near to mid future.
Dublin Airport is the fastest growing airport in Europe and its not too far off accepting big airliners such as the MD-11, 747-400PAX, A340 etc. etc. and this will most likely happen once the new T2 is complete in 2009.
Aer Lingus has just as much potential as Dublin Airport and is already expanding at the moment with new European routes launched every month. They will eventually be using all of their A320's but every airline will do what they can to save on money. Aer Lingus have played this gameplan dozens of times before. And they'll most likely play it again in the future and convince Airbus to give them a price-cut on the A350 instead of buying the 787 which Airbus do a lot.
Aer Lingus is already proposing to expand its trans-atlantic routes and is enquiring about a new ORK-JFK route in the A330.
The most likely time we should expect to see the arrival of new big jets is around the time of the completion of terminal 2 to the time of the new runway 28R which allows for the big jets I've listed above. At the moment Dublin Airport can't handle these big jets on a frequent basis. And the biggest plane seen there is the Singapore Cargo 747-400F which flies in once a week.
My overall point is that you shouldn't rule it out straight away. Aer Lingus will grow substantially over the next few years with new investors buying into the airline. We'll see new planes added to the fleet and the majority will be heavy jets for their new proposed long haul routes which they have said they'll definitly be introducing, especially with the new plan to sell off a majority stake to private investors which opens up new finance to Aer Lingus.
On a final note, don't forget that the A380 has 3 model types - A380-700/A380-800/A380-900. Aer Lingus could always buy the A380-700 which is smaller than the one Airbus have shown us all and would suit the airline well.
Anyway thats my 2 cents worth.
Aer Lingus have already announced they are to introduce new routes to South Africa, Middle East, Australia, Asia, 22 new routes to the US and several new routes in Europe over the next couple of years. To do this they need new planes and the only way they could get the money for these new planes was through privatising some of the airline.
The government wouldn't give the airline the €1B they needed for new planes so they decided to sell off a majority stake of the airline in order for it to make money which it will. But at the same time they retain 25% or more in order to have control over whatever decisions are brought to the agenda.
With this new plan, Aer Lingus can have tonnes of investors from all over the world who've been eager to get a share in the airline. And therefore with new investors pooring money into the airline, they can finally get new planes. The redundancies are also dieing off now and the job cuts are also finally coming to an end too so Aer Lingus will be making a lot of money in the near future.
Erm....
am I the only one who has trouble finding a route for these humungous aircraft in EI's route structure?
And whats this about Airbus cutting them a deal? "Buy X ammount of A320s from us and we'll throw in some A380s for cheap"
Thats dumping aircraft. Thats illegal and highly anti competative.
Is it any wonder they're to be investigated by the WTO?
am I the only one who has trouble finding a route for these humungous aircraft in EI's route structure?
And whats this about Airbus cutting them a deal? "Buy X ammount of A320s from us and we'll throw in some A380s for cheap"
Thats dumping aircraft. Thats illegal and highly anti competative.
Is it any wonder they're to be investigated by the WTO?
And what you obviously don't know either is that no airline as of yet has configured the A380 to seat its capable 800 passengers. Most airlines have configured it to a 3 class configuration and it will seat about 500 people and Aer Lingus already carry about 400 people on all of their trans-atlantic flights in their A330's.
Its uneconomical to configure an aircraft to carry that many passengers and I guarantee no airline will ever do it in the near to mid future.
Dublin Airport is the fastest growing airport in Europe and its not too far off accepting big airliners such as the MD-11, 747-400PAX, A340 etc. etc. and this will most likely happen once the new T2 is complete in 2009.
Aer Lingus has just as much potential as Dublin Airport and is already expanding at the moment with new European routes launched every month. They will eventually be using all of their A320's but every airline will do what they can to save on money. Aer Lingus have played this gameplan dozens of times before. And they'll most likely play it again in the future and convince Airbus to give them a price-cut on the A350 instead of buying the 787 which Airbus do a lot.
Aer Lingus is already proposing to expand its trans-atlantic routes and is enquiring about a new ORK-JFK route in the A330.
The most likely time we should expect to see the arrival of new big jets is around the time of the completion of terminal 2 to the time of the new runway 28R which allows for the big jets I've listed above. At the moment Dublin Airport can't handle these big jets on a frequent basis. And the biggest plane seen there is the Singapore Cargo 747-400F which flies in once a week.
My overall point is that you shouldn't rule it out straight away. Aer Lingus will grow substantially over the next few years with new investors buying into the airline. We'll see new planes added to the fleet and the majority will be heavy jets for their new proposed long haul routes which they have said they'll definitly be introducing, especially with the new plan to sell off a majority stake to private investors which opens up new finance to Aer Lingus.
On a final note, don't forget that the A380 has 3 model types - A380-700/A380-800/A380-900. Aer Lingus could always buy the A380-700 which is smaller than the one Airbus have shown us all and would suit the airline well.
Anyway thats my 2 cents worth.
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Airbus are up for scrutiny by the WTO for the subsidies yes... but their continuing practice to dump cheap aircraft on the market is anti competative.
How on gods green earth can a competitor counter a buy one get 1 free deal?
easyJet, Air Berlin and Air Asia, to name a few, have benefited from such a deal.
Discounts are normal... we all know that no airline pays list price.
But to sell 120 jets for the price of 60 to 80, along with free maintenance, crew training and ground equipment... that's not only insane but very anticompetative and I'm sure the WTO will take note when they scrutinize Airbus' books.
I know full well that no airline thus far has planned to configure their A380s at full capacity. And that so far the ONLY model type for the A380 is the 800.
No 700 or 900 has been formaly offered, nor launched, thus they are not available.
I cannot see EI getting the A380 simply because its too big and Dublin, although growing, simply does not and will not have the pax traffic to justify it. Unless all other Irish Airports are closed.
With the oil prices as they are ans set to rise higher, the A380 will only be economical with all its seats filled. And filling a 400-500-600 seat aircraft all year round will be a challenge even for the largest airlines, let alone filling 3 of them
And you talk about more price cutting from Airbus in the future for the A350...
More aircraft dumping!
I see Airbus had to pay an airline to agree to order it. Another highly suspect deal that the WTO will scrutinize.
On the by, you pitch the 787 and A350 against each other.... yet they are not direct competitors.
Simply put, the A350 is bigger and will more likely challenge future 772ER orders.
Airbus have again gone for the "bigger is better approach" in order to gain orders from the middle east.
And in doing so ignored a very valuable market... the A300/A310/767 replacement, the 787s prime market.
How on gods green earth can a competitor counter a buy one get 1 free deal?
easyJet, Air Berlin and Air Asia, to name a few, have benefited from such a deal.
Discounts are normal... we all know that no airline pays list price.
But to sell 120 jets for the price of 60 to 80, along with free maintenance, crew training and ground equipment... that's not only insane but very anticompetative and I'm sure the WTO will take note when they scrutinize Airbus' books.
I know full well that no airline thus far has planned to configure their A380s at full capacity. And that so far the ONLY model type for the A380 is the 800.
No 700 or 900 has been formaly offered, nor launched, thus they are not available.
I cannot see EI getting the A380 simply because its too big and Dublin, although growing, simply does not and will not have the pax traffic to justify it. Unless all other Irish Airports are closed.
With the oil prices as they are ans set to rise higher, the A380 will only be economical with all its seats filled. And filling a 400-500-600 seat aircraft all year round will be a challenge even for the largest airlines, let alone filling 3 of them
And you talk about more price cutting from Airbus in the future for the A350...
More aircraft dumping!
I see Airbus had to pay an airline to agree to order it. Another highly suspect deal that the WTO will scrutinize.
On the by, you pitch the 787 and A350 against each other.... yet they are not direct competitors.
Simply put, the A350 is bigger and will more likely challenge future 772ER orders.
Airbus have again gone for the "bigger is better approach" in order to gain orders from the middle east.
And in doing so ignored a very valuable market... the A300/A310/767 replacement, the 787s prime market.
Last edited by Bmused55; 10th Jul 2005 at 17:16.
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There is a faint chance of Ireland-US routes supporting A380s but there are plenty of reasons why it won't happen.
Remember EI used to operate 747-100s when demand for air travel was much smaller so it's not impossible to imagine demand for 555+ seats ex DUB to JFK, but the fact remains that it is likely to be constrained by the inadequate 10/28 and the bilateral requirement of operating from SNN. It will also require retention of 330s for thinner routes and entail creation of a new fleet type and the consequent maintenance, spares, handling, training and crewing costs.
It is also constrained by a stupid transport "policy" which all parties have had a chance to change and none ever have.
It is also constrained by the lack of EI cash, a lack which will be further constrained with the ending of the bilateral when the US airlines can fly from where they want to where they want and European airlines can operate from DUB if they wish.
As I have pointed out before, a B757 (wingleted) or A310 base at SNN could service the traffic from there while the 330s (remember they are -201/-301 so getting on) are concentrated in Dublin to conserve their cycles in the same way AA are operating 767s to DUB but only 757s to SNN but there is no bottle in either EI or more importantly .gov.ie.
Remember EI used to operate 747-100s when demand for air travel was much smaller so it's not impossible to imagine demand for 555+ seats ex DUB to JFK, but the fact remains that it is likely to be constrained by the inadequate 10/28 and the bilateral requirement of operating from SNN. It will also require retention of 330s for thinner routes and entail creation of a new fleet type and the consequent maintenance, spares, handling, training and crewing costs.
It is also constrained by a stupid transport "policy" which all parties have had a chance to change and none ever have.
It is also constrained by the lack of EI cash, a lack which will be further constrained with the ending of the bilateral when the US airlines can fly from where they want to where they want and European airlines can operate from DUB if they wish.
As I have pointed out before, a B757 (wingleted) or A310 base at SNN could service the traffic from there while the 330s (remember they are -201/-301 so getting on) are concentrated in Dublin to conserve their cycles in the same way AA are operating 767s to DUB but only 757s to SNN but there is no bottle in either EI or more importantly .gov.ie.
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but the fact remains that it is likely to be constrained by the inadequate 10/28 and the bilateral requirement of operating from SNN.
There is nothing stopping the Dublin Airport Authority from upgrading runway 28/10 to meet the requirements for the A380. Remember airports all over the world have had to made adjustments with runways and taxiways to accomodate the A380 so Dublin wouldn't be the first airport to have to do that. Some of those airports include Frankfurt, LAX, JFK, and London-Heathrow.
I also indicated in my last post that the time we would see the arrival of many large jets into the Aer Lingus fleet would be around the time of the opening of T2 when new gates and services would be able to accomodate such a large plane like the A380.
It will also require retention of 330s for thinner routes and entail creation of a new fleet type and the consequent maintenance, spares, handling, training and crewing costs.
But one thing to mention though is that the A380 has very low maintenance costs compared to a plane like the 747-400 let alone a 747-100 and there will always be training costs for new planes but why would that stop an airline form buying a plane? Thats a rediculous excuse and not one many airlines use to avoid buying a plane. All of the maintenence costs you've listed above will be extremely cheap for a plane like the A380 so again that wouldn't prevent Aer Lingus from buying it.
It is also constrained by the lack of EI cash
As I have pointed out before, a B757 (wingleted) or A310 base at SNN could service the traffic from there while the 330s (remember they are -201/-301 so getting on) are concentrated in Dublin to conserve their cycles in the same way AA are operating 767s to DUB but only 757s to SNN but there is no bottle in either EI or more importantly .gov.ie.
So I stress again my final point from my last post, which is that you shouldn't rule this out completely because it could happen. And the reasons listed why everyone thinks it won't happen have nearly all been prooven not to be valid and don't prevent an airline like Aer Lingus to buy this jet. And again like I said earlier, Aer Lingus already carry about 400 passengers on their routes to the US which are nearly always full so buying an A380 would suit Aer Lingus very well, and probably the A380-700 out of all 3 types.
It was also said above earlier that the Boeing 777 would suit Aer Lingus. I can tell ya now they won't be buying it. I've done work experience with SR Technics at Dublin and they have all told me that Aer Lingus will be staying Airbus meaning they will be most likely be buying the A350 which is compeition for the 777 and 767 as well as the 787. And buying the 777 would entail much higher training, maintenence, crew costs and most likely the initial price for the plane itself as Boeing are usually more expensive than Airbus.
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There is no A380-700
Period.
Perhaps the idea for one... but it doesn't go beyond that.
Also. the A350 is not a direct 787 competitor. Its bigger and heavier and will more likely compete with the 772ER.
The 767 market is not even touched by the A350, as Airbus in their infinate wisdom choose to ignore that market and go grovel to EK and QR for orders.
The 767/A310/A300 short/medium haul high density market will be the sole preserve of the 787-3 and to some extent the 787-8. The A350 is far too heavy this. The 787-3 is designed for it
Period.
Perhaps the idea for one... but it doesn't go beyond that.
Also. the A350 is not a direct 787 competitor. Its bigger and heavier and will more likely compete with the 772ER.
The 767 market is not even touched by the A350, as Airbus in their infinate wisdom choose to ignore that market and go grovel to EK and QR for orders.
The 767/A310/A300 short/medium haul high density market will be the sole preserve of the 787-3 and to some extent the 787-8. The A350 is far too heavy this. The 787-3 is designed for it
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There is no A380-700
Period.
Perhaps the idea for one... but it doesn't go beyond that.
Period.
Perhaps the idea for one... but it doesn't go beyond that.
Also. the A350 is not a direct 787 competitor. Its bigger and heavier and will more likely compete with the 772ER.
The 767 market is not even touched by the A350, as Airbus in their infinate wisdom choose to ignore that market and go grovel to EK and QR for orders.
The A330 was originally built to compete with the Boeing 767 and did this very well and outsold the 767 by far. So it is technically slightly competing with the 767 but fact is that theres no compeition because nobody is buying the plane as they're waiting for the 787 instead.
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Wrong.
The a350 is not a short/medium haul high density aircraft.
the 787-3 is.
The A350 does not compete on this level, BIG mistake by Airbus.
And the airbus engineer I talk to says the 800 is as small as it can economically get for the A380.
He also promised 99% reliabilty for the A340-600... a year past the deadline its still short of it.
He promised 8000nm for the a340-600 initialy... thats far far off.
He promised strong performance on the A340-300... its powered by hairdryers and struggles out of hot and high airfields.
To put it simply; Airbus promise a lot that they don't deliver.
Edit: I would have thought you were aware by now that naming names is a no no on PPRuNe, especially when it is also couched as an insult. No more please.
PPP
The a350 is not a short/medium haul high density aircraft.
the 787-3 is.
The A350 does not compete on this level, BIG mistake by Airbus.
And the airbus engineer I talk to says the 800 is as small as it can economically get for the A380.
He also promised 99% reliabilty for the A340-600... a year past the deadline its still short of it.
He promised 8000nm for the a340-600 initialy... thats far far off.
He promised strong performance on the A340-300... its powered by hairdryers and struggles out of hot and high airfields.
To put it simply; Airbus promise a lot that they don't deliver.
Edit: I would have thought you were aware by now that naming names is a no no on PPRuNe, especially when it is also couched as an insult. No more please.
PPP
Last edited by Bmused55; 10th Jul 2005 at 21:27.
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And the airbus engineer I talk to says the 800 is as small as it can economically get for the A380.
He also promised 99% reliabilty for the A340-600... a year past the deadline its still short of it.
He promised 8000nm for the a340-600 initialy... thats far far off.
He promised strong performance on the A340-300... its powered by hairdryers and struggles out of hot and high airfields.
To put it simply; Airbus promise a lot that they don't deliver.
He also promised 99% reliabilty for the A340-600... a year past the deadline its still short of it.
He promised 8000nm for the a340-600 initialy... thats far far off.
He promised strong performance on the A340-300... its powered by hairdryers and struggles out of hot and high airfields.
To put it simply; Airbus promise a lot that they don't deliver.
We'll see what Aer Lingus decide in the future but I honestly hope they do get some A380's and not the 747-400Adv. Then again I wouldn't mind if they got some new large jets full stop as they've only 3 models atm which is a very small variation in a fleet. But Aer Lingus are going to be getting much bigger jets than the A330 in the future and its gotta be something else like the A350 or A340 if not the A380.
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The trouble is.. a shorter A380 would be horrendously heavy for the number of seats it would be carrying. You just could not make it work.
The A380-800 is overweight as it is. Airbus have gotten around this by quietly upping the brochure OEW specifications.
The world of Quad airliners is shrinking. Twin jets are the future. The A380 as it is is a dinosaur in this respect. The 747ADV even more so.
Quads are going to become a niche market before long. I realy do not think such a future support a heavily overweight shorter A380-700.
But then again... Airbus won't pay for much of it... so they'll just go ahead anyway.
The A380 will not sell more than 500 I feel.
The A380-800 is overweight as it is. Airbus have gotten around this by quietly upping the brochure OEW specifications.
The world of Quad airliners is shrinking. Twin jets are the future. The A380 as it is is a dinosaur in this respect. The 747ADV even more so.
Quads are going to become a niche market before long. I realy do not think such a future support a heavily overweight shorter A380-700.
But then again... Airbus won't pay for much of it... so they'll just go ahead anyway.
The A380 will not sell more than 500 I feel.
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Yeah but remember, everyone had all of these thoughts when Boeing proposed the 747. The A380 could end up being the future of aircraft but thats hard to tell at this stage and as I said, only time will tell as to whether this beast will be a success. I personally hope it is as it seems like a great aircraft but then again could also have the same future as the MD-11 and end up only being a success with cargo companies like UPS and FedEx.
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The world of Quad airliners is shrinking
Now many have more in the food store than they need, but seek comfort by having spares.
# is the sign of fractured.
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When making wild statements don’t try to prove you knowledge with obviously wrong statement that are easily verified.
True number is 327. Almost as close to 250 as 400…
Oceancrosser, agree with your first statement but the second is at about a third of the right number. 747SP deliveries
Edit: If Aer lingus would like to advertise on PPRuNe we have a fee for it. Please do not provide links for their services.
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Aer Lingus already carry about 400 people on all of their trans-atlantic flights in their A330's.
Oceancrosser, agree with your first statement but the second is at about a third of the right number. 747SP deliveries
Edit: If Aer lingus would like to advertise on PPRuNe we have a fee for it. Please do not provide links for their services.
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