Airbus Paris Air Show Party On Hold (Merged)
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Panda-K-Bear, I'll disagree with you on your point that the 747 Advanced is a paper airplane. This airplane is different from the earlier 747X, 747-500/600 proposals, because the economics of the Advanced are different from these earlier airplanes.
In the current environment, operating economics (and to a slightly less extent operating flexibility) drive airplane sales more and more compared to purchases made in the past. For the 747 Advanced to work, it has to have excellent operating costs. It already has (on paper) very good operational flexibility (available airports, freight capacity, etc), but its seat mile cost flexibility (good seat mile costs in a variety of circumstances and routes) have to be among the best available, something the current 744 does not have.
I know that much of the design criteria for the 747 Advanced is geared toward these goals, and I personally think that Boeing may well launch the airplane if they can get these numbers right.
What concerns me the most about the A380, is its operating economics, where weight is THE issue effecting its operating costs.
In the current environment, operating economics (and to a slightly less extent operating flexibility) drive airplane sales more and more compared to purchases made in the past. For the 747 Advanced to work, it has to have excellent operating costs. It already has (on paper) very good operational flexibility (available airports, freight capacity, etc), but its seat mile cost flexibility (good seat mile costs in a variety of circumstances and routes) have to be among the best available, something the current 744 does not have.
I know that much of the design criteria for the 747 Advanced is geared toward these goals, and I personally think that Boeing may well launch the airplane if they can get these numbers right.
What concerns me the most about the A380, is its operating economics, where weight is THE issue effecting its operating costs.
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panda-k-bear ,
I really don't see how you became so confused as to how I feel about any airplane. The reason I think the EVAC test is going to be a challenge is they are coming from some 40 ft in the air. I would not want to jump from the upper deck of a 747 either. Thats why I won't ride up there, plus there is no business class up there anyway.
I am not convinced the 747A should be any bigger either. It's hard enough to fill one of those as it is. Just because you put a plane into revenue service does not mean it is always going to fill up.
I really don't see how you became so confused as to how I feel about any airplane. The reason I think the EVAC test is going to be a challenge is they are coming from some 40 ft in the air. I would not want to jump from the upper deck of a 747 either. Thats why I won't ride up there, plus there is no business class up there anyway.
I am not convinced the 747A should be any bigger either. It's hard enough to fill one of those as it is. Just because you put a plane into revenue service does not mean it is always going to fill up.
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Focal .. rumour has it that Boeing is very likely to land a major order for 53 B777 from ANA. I guess that order will be announced at the Paris Air show .. so one more WIN for Boeing .. got to love it 
Jetavia: I read recently about a real mess regarding some aircraft orders by Air India, was it? Maybe it happened weeks ago, but it appeared to be quite awkward.
Did both Boeing AND Airbus find a good, fire-resistant substitute to put in all newer aircraft, for the Kapton material which brought down the Swissair MD-11 near Halifax? It was my impression that several aircraft types were built with the Kapton.
Also, how about a two-hour minimum from bottle to keyboard, especially on Pprune? It might allow certain debates to be more detached and impersonal, i.e.
.
Did both Boeing AND Airbus find a good, fire-resistant substitute to put in all newer aircraft, for the Kapton material which brought down the Swissair MD-11 near Halifax? It was my impression that several aircraft types were built with the Kapton.
Also, how about a two-hour minimum from bottle to keyboard, especially on Pprune? It might allow certain debates to be more detached and impersonal, i.e.
.
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I think the real reason for the delay is that after the Virgin debacle they are trying to figure out how to give the pilots control over the transponder before they launch!!!!!!!!!!
V1
V1
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Boeing's Website is very slow at updating thier sales record. Off justplanes.com
Jun** Air New Zealand converting option so orders for upto 18 787s
May31 Ethiopian 5x B787
May27 Egyptair 12x B737-800
May26 Lion Air 60x B737NG
May19 Air France 5x B777-200F
May11 China Southern 12x B737-700, 18x B737-800
May11 Xiamen Airlines 15x B737-800
May10 Sky Europe 4x B737-700
May10 GECAS 6x B737-700
May05 Northwest 18x B787-800
Apr26 Air India 5x B777-200, 10x B777-300, 20x B787
Apr25 Copa 5x B737-700
Apr25 Air Canada 16x B777, 2x B777F, 14x B787
Apr19 Air Europa 3x B737-800
Apr12 Flugleidir Icelandair 5x B737-800
Apr10 Korean Air 10x B787-800
Apr08 Westjet 3x B737-600
Mar23 GOL 4x B737-800
Mar22 S.A.L.E. 20x B737-800
Mar18 United Airlines -1x B777-200
Mar08 Air France 4x B777-300
Feb25 Icelandair 2x B787-800
Feb24 Ryanair 70x B737-800
Feb22 GOL 5x B737-800
Feb17 All Nippon 4x B777-300, -4x B767-300
Feb09 SpiceJet 10x B737-800
Feb04 Japan Airlines 30x B737
Feb04 Ethiopian Airlines 5x B787
Feb03 Buraq Airlines 3x B737-800
Feb01 Pembroke -14x B717-200
Jan28 Air China 15x B787
Jan28 China Eastern 15x B787
Jan28 China Southern 10x B787
Jan28 Hainan Airlines 8x B787
Jan28 Shanghai Airlines 9x B787
Jan28 Xiamen Airlines 3x B787
Jan26 Flugleidir Icelandair 10x B737-800
Jan12 Bavaria 6x B737-700
Jan06 Hapag Lloyd10x B737-800
The 777/787 combo are selling 'like hot cakes'. For this year alone so far Boeing are streaks ahead. Where Airbus get their bulls**t about the A320 being the best ever beggers belief
Boeing TOTAL = 472 vs Airbus TOTAL = 134
Jun** Air New Zealand converting option so orders for upto 18 787s
May31 Ethiopian 5x B787
May27 Egyptair 12x B737-800
May26 Lion Air 60x B737NG
May19 Air France 5x B777-200F
May11 China Southern 12x B737-700, 18x B737-800
May11 Xiamen Airlines 15x B737-800
May10 Sky Europe 4x B737-700
May10 GECAS 6x B737-700
May05 Northwest 18x B787-800
Apr26 Air India 5x B777-200, 10x B777-300, 20x B787
Apr25 Copa 5x B737-700
Apr25 Air Canada 16x B777, 2x B777F, 14x B787
Apr19 Air Europa 3x B737-800
Apr12 Flugleidir Icelandair 5x B737-800
Apr10 Korean Air 10x B787-800
Apr08 Westjet 3x B737-600
Mar23 GOL 4x B737-800
Mar22 S.A.L.E. 20x B737-800
Mar18 United Airlines -1x B777-200
Mar08 Air France 4x B777-300
Feb25 Icelandair 2x B787-800
Feb24 Ryanair 70x B737-800
Feb22 GOL 5x B737-800
Feb17 All Nippon 4x B777-300, -4x B767-300
Feb09 SpiceJet 10x B737-800
Feb04 Japan Airlines 30x B737
Feb04 Ethiopian Airlines 5x B787
Feb03 Buraq Airlines 3x B737-800
Feb01 Pembroke -14x B717-200
Jan28 Air China 15x B787
Jan28 China Eastern 15x B787
Jan28 China Southern 10x B787
Jan28 Hainan Airlines 8x B787
Jan28 Shanghai Airlines 9x B787
Jan28 Xiamen Airlines 3x B787
Jan26 Flugleidir Icelandair 10x B737-800
Jan12 Bavaria 6x B737-700
Jan06 Hapag Lloyd10x B737-800
The 777/787 combo are selling 'like hot cakes'. For this year alone so far Boeing are streaks ahead. Where Airbus get their bulls**t about the A320 being the best ever beggers belief
Boeing TOTAL = 472 vs Airbus TOTAL = 134
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Not sure where you got your numbers from Mode7, but this is Boeing's list as of May 31.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/
The 747ADV looks to be a worthy candidate, although John Leahy doesn't seem to agree, telling us journos at Toolooze a couple of weeks ago... “If Boeing is going to compete with the A380, it won’t be with the 747 Advanced. They’ll need a whole new aircraft, and until they do that, the A380 will dominate.”
A 747 with GEnx engines, a small fuselage plug for 440-460 seats, composite components added and a redesigned interior would be an attractive aircraft to fly on from a passenger's point of view, and for those airlines who would struggle to fill 550+ seats, a viable alternative.
Randy Baseler told us in April that the "747ADV is better than a 50/50 proposition", and could be launched at Paris.
Magoo
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/
The 747ADV looks to be a worthy candidate, although John Leahy doesn't seem to agree, telling us journos at Toolooze a couple of weeks ago... “If Boeing is going to compete with the A380, it won’t be with the 747 Advanced. They’ll need a whole new aircraft, and until they do that, the A380 will dominate.”
A 747 with GEnx engines, a small fuselage plug for 440-460 seats, composite components added and a redesigned interior would be an attractive aircraft to fly on from a passenger's point of view, and for those airlines who would struggle to fill 550+ seats, a viable alternative.
Randy Baseler told us in April that the "747ADV is better than a 50/50 proposition", and could be launched at Paris.
Magoo
Last edited by Magoodotcom; 6th Jun 2005 at 06:35.
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For Magoodotcom
Nice to see that you read and understood my post. I say again.....
BOEING ARE VERY SLACK AT UPDATING THEIR WEBSITE ORDER LIST... THE FIGURES ARE FROM WWW.JUSTPLANES.COM
On Boeing's list there is no mension of the massive Air Canada and Air India orders at all, amongst several dozen other orders
OVER
Nice to see that you read and understood my post. I say again.....
BOEING ARE VERY SLACK AT UPDATING THEIR WEBSITE ORDER LIST... THE FIGURES ARE FROM WWW.JUSTPLANES.COM
On Boeing's list there is no mension of the massive Air Canada and Air India orders at all, amongst several dozen other orders
OVER
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For Mode7
Nice to see you can read too...READ THE BOEING WEBSITE, IT SAYS AS OF MAY 31. THAT'S PRETTY UP-TO-DATE TO ME! Now turn the attitude dial down a little please, otherwise pull your head in!
Don't you think Boeing would be crowing about having 472 orders if they really did have them??? I believe that would be close to an all-time record year for orders, and we're only six months into it!
At the end of the day, it's only confirmed orders which Boeing and anyone else will count, not unconfirmed orders on a spotters website. Boeing tripped on this minor detail late last year when they bragged they would have 200 orders for the 787 by the end of the year - they were actually holding about 217 orders, but had only completed the negotiations on about half of them before everything shut down for Xmas - hence they were left with egg on their face because they refuse to announce unconfirmed orders.
Neither Air Canada nor Air India have signed anything - they have simply reserved production line spaces while they negotiate the prices for their aircraft - the final numbers could go down (or up) based on price - same goes for the Lion Air 737 order. Rumours abound that you might see some 'amendments' to the Air India order once all the shouting has died down.
OVER AND OUT!
Magoo
Nice to see you can read too...READ THE BOEING WEBSITE, IT SAYS AS OF MAY 31. THAT'S PRETTY UP-TO-DATE TO ME! Now turn the attitude dial down a little please, otherwise pull your head in!
Don't you think Boeing would be crowing about having 472 orders if they really did have them??? I believe that would be close to an all-time record year for orders, and we're only six months into it!
At the end of the day, it's only confirmed orders which Boeing and anyone else will count, not unconfirmed orders on a spotters website. Boeing tripped on this minor detail late last year when they bragged they would have 200 orders for the 787 by the end of the year - they were actually holding about 217 orders, but had only completed the negotiations on about half of them before everything shut down for Xmas - hence they were left with egg on their face because they refuse to announce unconfirmed orders.
Neither Air Canada nor Air India have signed anything - they have simply reserved production line spaces while they negotiate the prices for their aircraft - the final numbers could go down (or up) based on price - same goes for the Lion Air 737 order. Rumours abound that you might see some 'amendments' to the Air India order once all the shouting has died down.
OVER AND OUT!
Magoo
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Airbus Paris Air Show Party On Hold
Airbus Paris Air Show Party On Hold
Thu, 09 Jun '05
No A350 To Announce, No A380 To Show Off
It was supposed to be the mother of all parties at the Paris Air Show this month -- Airbus celebrating the launch of its A350 and the flight testing of its behemoth A380. But orders for champagne have been put on hold, as has any announcement on the launch of the A350. That won't happen until at least September.
So says EADS, the number-one shareholder in Airbus, with the concurrence of the UK's BAe Systems.
"We need to be absolutely sure of how to manage the A350, with all the other programs we are pursuing," said EADS spokesman Rainer Ohler. He was quoted by the New York Times.
In the meantime, there are apparent production problems with the super-jumbo A380 (above), which took its maiden flight in April. Those problems have forced delays of at least six months in the first A380 deliveries and some carriers are screaming they want compensation as a result.
Two other factors cast a shadow over Airbus' presence at the Paris Air Show, which starts on Monday: the ongoing boardroom tussle over who will lead Airbus, now that former CEO Noel Foergard has been kicked upstairs to help lead EADS and the ongoing trade dispute between Airbus and arch-rival Boeing.
The delay in launch financing for the A350 (above) dampens Airbus plans to announce it has more than 100 pending orders for the 787 rival. There are also continuing questions about the plane's viability as a model unto itself, rather than a rehash of an earlier Airbus design.
FMI: www.airbus.com
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-cb3da2654733&
Thu, 09 Jun '05
No A350 To Announce, No A380 To Show Off
It was supposed to be the mother of all parties at the Paris Air Show this month -- Airbus celebrating the launch of its A350 and the flight testing of its behemoth A380. But orders for champagne have been put on hold, as has any announcement on the launch of the A350. That won't happen until at least September.
So says EADS, the number-one shareholder in Airbus, with the concurrence of the UK's BAe Systems.
"We need to be absolutely sure of how to manage the A350, with all the other programs we are pursuing," said EADS spokesman Rainer Ohler. He was quoted by the New York Times.
In the meantime, there are apparent production problems with the super-jumbo A380 (above), which took its maiden flight in April. Those problems have forced delays of at least six months in the first A380 deliveries and some carriers are screaming they want compensation as a result.
Two other factors cast a shadow over Airbus' presence at the Paris Air Show, which starts on Monday: the ongoing boardroom tussle over who will lead Airbus, now that former CEO Noel Foergard has been kicked upstairs to help lead EADS and the ongoing trade dispute between Airbus and arch-rival Boeing.
The delay in launch financing for the A350 (above) dampens Airbus plans to announce it has more than 100 pending orders for the 787 rival. There are also continuing questions about the plane's viability as a model unto itself, rather than a rehash of an earlier Airbus design.
FMI: www.airbus.com
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...-cb3da2654733&
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Perhaps Boeing can steal the spotlight......watch for a 777-200 in pretty Boeing blue coming to a Paris tarmac near you.
http://images.airliners.net/open.fil...=801362&size=L
3my
http://images.airliners.net/open.fil...=801362&size=L
3my
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..... so has the A380 still only made the one flight so far?
I would have thought that the flight test program would have been well towards double figures by now. Maybe the first flight didn't go very well.
I would have thought that the flight test program would have been well towards double figures by now. Maybe the first flight didn't go very well.
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Perhaps Mr @ Spotty could steer us in the direction of where he saw a confirmation that the A380 WILL be at Paris.
The Airbus website, Press releases, has nothing post May 30th.
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/
The Airbus website, Press releases, has nothing post May 30th.
http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/
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Perhaps Mr @ Spotty could steer us in the direction of where he saw a confirmation that the A380 WILL be at Paris.
Further in it says :-
"Paris Air Show 2005 Airbus will have a major presence at the biennial Paris Air Show – the world’s most prestigious aerospace industry event. The company will spotlight its entire product line, from the A318 to the A380."
Fairly strong hints I would say.
The Paris Air show web site also has the A380 listed as of 1st June.
JT
topbunk
Don't know where the one flight rumour came from, I've seen it in flight South of TLS several times in the last month ( the kids at the local school are now well versed in A380 spotting) - and very good it looks too.
