A bit too close?

[jartweb]

Anyone think these are a bit too close?



I snapped this over EGLL on 23 Jan 2005 at 16:18.
Planes were heading in a generally northern direction, somewhat east of the field.
Had to use a long lens to get them. Well above the usual approach heights, perhaps FL60 to FL100?

I'd say less than 100 ft vertical separation and only a few hundred feet lateral.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I'd say less than 100 ft vertical separation and only a few hundred feet lateral.>>

You plainly couldn't determine if they were anywhere between 6000 and 10000 feet but then you say they were less than 100 ft vertically separated!

Forget it. You are in the same boat as millions of US in that we cannot tell how far apart aircraft are from the ground.

[Turn It Off]

They will be at least 3 miles apart, unless they are established on final approach.

[TimS]

Based on the facts that:

1) the images (which are taken at very similar angles) are in ratio of approximately 17(left image):12(right image), and both appear to be later 737 variants (although the right hand one has winglets)

2) the left hand image is considerably sharper and more detailed than the right hand one

3) the impact of long lenses is to make distant items seem closer (to us and each other) than they are

I have been able to quell any rising sense of panic or shock.

TimS

[kowloon]

I often point out to passengers in similar situations like this whilst holding that when two aircraft are banking in a turn the lateral distance between the aircraft looks very little. But in fact the aircraft are seperated vertically by at least 1000ft. It can be very deceiving even when airbourne, you have to trust your instruments and TCAS. Doesn't the aircraft on the right look slightly higher?

[jartweb]

Thanks for comments everyone.

The photo was shot with an image stabilised lens, at max telephoto, at 1/60 sec as the light was fading. That probably accounts for some of the blurriness (it was also darned cold!)

The reason I took the photo was that by eye, the separation looked less than usual. I have lived near EGLL for over 16 years and fly in/out several times as year. I have seen how close traffic separation gets in the turn onto final when a couple of streams are being vectored off the stacks and joined onto the localiser. I have seen this from the ground, as a passenger in the cabin and as a guest in the cockpit. I have also done a little formation flying in a Cessna a few years back.

All my experience made me think - oooh, a bit closer than usual, so I took the shot.

I get a slightly different image ratio to TimS (he gets 1.42, I get 1.24 for wing length, 1.21 for nose to tail). But we'd need exact specs on the a/c dimensions to take the analysis much further. I agree that the a/c on the right looks slightly higher, but one aspect that the still shot does not bring out is that they flew as if in formation. I had time to see them, get my camera out of the bag, power up, focus and take the shot. For about 10 secs they maintained relative position.

Then again, they could be on the same airway (perhaps T420?) at different FLs, with a bit of lateral sep.

Anyway, since I have not heard of any airprox report, I'll follow the general consensus that they were indeed separated.



Cheers,

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It really is difficult to know what levels the aircraft were at. I have taken pics through a telescope of aircraft at 30000 ft which look like yours. Equally I have taken pics of similar aircraft at 6000 ft with a 50mm lens which also look like yours.

If they were not overflying they could possibly be Luton inbounds under radar control of the TMA controllers at West Drayton. If they were 8000 or below they might have been inbound to Heathrow from Ockham and being routed over the ILS for a right-hand circuit.

Separation in both cases would be a minimum of 3nm OR 1000 ft vertically.

[10 DME ARC]

Heathrow

I don't think so.........

Southwest 737 and an Alaskan 73!!

If its real could be LA or some where VMC parallel approaches?

[few@two]

At a guess its an Air Berlin 73 on the left and maybe a ford air or private charter one on the right.

Its likely that the Air Berlin is bound for STN, maybe the other is too but prob Luton, there is a point called VATON close to LHR which is prob where their over and heading for BPK and then the arrival for either LTN or STN.

Separations gonna be at least 1000, prob 2000 have been in this situation before ...

hope this helps

[5milesbaby]

Anyone know why I cannot see the picture? All I get is a white box with a red cross in it.....

[Avman]

Please don't let this run into pages and pages. The a/c on the right is most definitely at least 1000 feet higher. The left one is definitely Air Berlin. The right one is not so obvious, but Ford Air is a good call.

COMPROMISED SEPERATION IS NOT AN ISSUE HERE. Now let's put this to bed eh boys.

[BOAC]

5Milesbaby - it is your internet settings. Have a search on the computer forum -I'm sure it has been well covered there.

OK everybody else - they did NOT collide, so, as Avman says, can we stop worrying about the 'separation'?

[jartweb]

CLOSED!

5Milesbaby - the pic is hosted on another server so if you have addblocking software, it may treat the pic as an Advert and block it.

I reiterate BOAC's comments:

Thanks for the responses.
Consensus is they were separated.
Topic CLOSED.

Thanks!