Props into Heathrow
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Props into Heathrow
So there I am the other night, procrastinating from doing real work, staring out the window, when a turboprop (Saab?) drones overhead on approach to Heathrow. Never having seen one of these on this route before I thought I'd ask. Who flies them there and how often?
Cheers.
Cheers.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KLM runs F50s to Rotterdam (four daily?), KLM Excel ATR72s (two or three daily) to Eindhoven (or is it the other way around? 
We get the odd SAAB 2000 in on a Swiss infrequently, and the odd PA31, King Air or such like on hospital flights.
The light KLMs are the only regular props.
We get the odd SAAB 2000 in on a Swiss infrequently, and the odd PA31, King Air or such like on hospital flights.
The light KLMs are the only regular props.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Normally with the jets we have a departure interval of two minutes. Ie. two minutes before another departing a/c can be launched on the same route. Because of the difference in speeds, in a F50 or ATR72 is followed by a jet it goes to four minute, which may not sound much, but when there's fifteen at the holding point it seems like an age!
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doesn't the slower speed of a prop cause problems for all the other planes and a headache for ATC?
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SURREY
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aye, PR.
Will they EVER learn now.
And the 2+ min dep sep can be replaced by a vertical sep if prop a/c is fast climber and Air Deps uses the phone more.
eg "Out of 3000' the next can go to 3000' only"
Use Mode C or A/C report.
It IS done at LHR & lesser places.
Don't go back to being a sausage machine, you guys 'n gals
Will they EVER learn now.
And the 2+ min dep sep can be replaced by a vertical sep if prop a/c is fast climber and Air Deps uses the phone more.
eg "Out of 3000' the next can go to 3000' only"
Use Mode C or A/C report.
It IS done at LHR & lesser places.
Don't go back to being a sausage machine, you guys 'n gals
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AC
If the prop is the second plane, yes you can do reduced sep but, as Gonzo quite rightly said, you have to do FOUR mins behind (same route) because that's what Terminal Control want. Otherwise the phones are red hot from some Sh£t hot radar guy having kittens.
Don't blame the tower controllers beacause at Heathrow there's NOTHING we can do. Your rules mate (it's in the MATS 2 for all to see) and if you did some tower, you'd realise you pompous a$s.
P7
If the prop is the second plane, yes you can do reduced sep but, as Gonzo quite rightly said, you have to do FOUR mins behind (same route) because that's what Terminal Control want. Otherwise the phones are red hot from some Sh£t hot radar guy having kittens.
Don't blame the tower controllers beacause at Heathrow there's NOTHING we can do. Your rules mate (it's in the MATS 2 for all to see) and if you did some tower, you'd realise you pompous a$s.
P7
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MATS (Pt 1 or 2) always allows controllers to sort out alternatives between themselves.
Point 7 ... the alternative is always there. You and your unit choose not to use it, then that is your perogative.
Point 7 ... the alternative is always there. You and your unit choose not to use it, then that is your perogative.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PR
But if our MATS II says that the seperation will be four minutes behind a specific speed group (something that is now taught at the College of Knowledge) how can we apply something else?
It's all very well radar guys telling us how to circumvent the procedure, we've all (mostly) done a radar rating course and know how to, but the one time it goes wrong, at the borad of enquiry you haven't actually applied the letter of the MATS II. It's there for a reason and for it to be inferred that this makes us a sausage machine is somewhat insulting. We don't sit on here complaining about the increasingly poor application of vortex spacing into LL do we?
Yet, I get a yellow card......
P7
But if our MATS II says that the seperation will be four minutes behind a specific speed group (something that is now taught at the College of Knowledge) how can we apply something else?
It's all very well radar guys telling us how to circumvent the procedure, we've all (mostly) done a radar rating course and know how to, but the one time it goes wrong, at the borad of enquiry you haven't actually applied the letter of the MATS II. It's there for a reason and for it to be inferred that this makes us a sausage machine is somewhat insulting. We don't sit on here complaining about the increasingly poor application of vortex spacing into LL do we?
Yet, I get a yellow card......
P7
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the CIR
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
during approach props can keep their speed up for much longer than a jet can. Seems a whole generation of ATCOs have not learned that yet !!
I was watching a girl try and squeeze an A320 ahead of a Saab2000 the other day. What a nightmare. Eventually had to reduce the Saab to 220kts at about 60miles to make it work. The bus didnt want to go faster than 290kts and she initially told the Saab that he could pole along at own speed, not knowing(due lack of interest) that he is shunting along at 275kts!!! Told me to
off when I repeatedly said "told you so" afterward.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
25check
Whoever you are, I'll get ya
DVR/DET is completely different to props out of LHR. I know your point but NO i don't call for 2 mins because I know why the rule is there. It's easier for me to police it myself - that way I don't stitch up my mates on TMA South.
P7
Whoever you are, I'll get ya
DVR/DET is completely different to props out of LHR. I know your point but NO i don't call for 2 mins because I know why the rule is there. It's easier for me to police it myself - that way I don't stitch up my mates on TMA South.
P7
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh my God, I'm going to agree with P7!!!
I also do not bother to ask for 2 minutes for DVR/DETs....
Also, I reckon that 70-80% of the time if Air Deps asks to go early on a jet behind a F50 or ATR, then the answer will be "I'll call you back with a release"....and the release comes AFTER the four minutes, when we could have launched anyway.
That's my experience, and why I no longer make that call.
AC2, can I assume that you work TC NE?
I also do not bother to ask for 2 minutes for DVR/DETs....
Also, I reckon that 70-80% of the time if Air Deps asks to go early on a jet behind a F50 or ATR, then the answer will be "I'll call you back with a release"....and the release comes AFTER the four minutes, when we could have launched anyway.
That's my experience, and why I no longer make that call.
AC2, can I assume that you work TC NE?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, sorry, it must have been the fact that you seemed to be criticising the method of co-ordination between two positions in such a forthright manner that lead me to think you must work in one of them....
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SURREY
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi, Gonzo. It's NOT personal.
But, that looks like another question...
It's TCSE.
TIME SEPARATION CRITERIA
Dep A/c will be Sep by LLADC
A more expeditious dep may be req if application of the criteria would cause excessive delay.
What is excessive delay?
It's YOUR service provision we're talking about.
If you don't ask I can't help.
There COULD be another solution. IF I am V-busy I WILL say NO.
Don't try to get personal. And this is the wrong Forum for this.
You need not reply.
But, that looks like another question...
It's TCSE.
TIME SEPARATION CRITERIA
Dep A/c will be Sep by LLADC
A more expeditious dep may be req if application of the criteria would cause excessive delay.
What is excessive delay?
It's YOUR service provision we're talking about.
If you don't ask I can't help.
There COULD be another solution. IF I am V-busy I WILL say NO.
Don't try to get personal. And this is the wrong Forum for this.
You need not reply.