Easy's first A319
Look Wetpants - this isn't the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps you know!
A properly planned, briefed and authorised runway flyby. Walk in the park.
WWW
A properly planned, briefed and authorised runway flyby. Walk in the park.
WWW
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I may be of some assistance here. The legendary AF crash occurred because of foolishness on behalf of the pilot. Sadly this one accident, simply because it was shown so spectacularly on film, made everyone think Airbuses were death traps.
The A320 family has, among numerous other protections, a facility called 'Alpha Floor'. In essence this facility automatically selects TOGA power regardless of the position of the thrust levers if it detects a low energy situation. It becomes active when the the alpha (aoa) of the aircraft decays below Alpha Prot (the angle of attack when the sidestick starts to control alpha directly) and before the stall aoa known as Alpha Max. As all Airbus pilots will know it is not possible to command an aoa more than Alpha Max in normal operation regardless of how hard you pull back on the side stick. Nonetheless it is clearly not desireable to have a very high aoa and low energy, hence Alpha Floor kicks in to provide the necessary power to get out of the situation.
What the AF pilot did not realise was that Alpha Floor is only active from take-off to 100' radio on landing, and when he did his fancy manoeuvre he was below 100'! Therefore Alpha Floor never kicked in as he expected. Being an Airbus it just sat there at a high (but totally safe!) aoa moving gracefully just above the runway. By the time the AF pilot realised that he was not going to get TOGA power automatically through the Alpha Floor facility he manually selected TOGA by pushing the levers forward. The engines spooled up as normal (fairly slowly like all jet engines) and because he had used up so much runway he was unable to get a positive rate of climb on to climb above the trees at the end of the runway. He therefore flew in controlled flight straight into the trees with the engines in the process of spooling up as normal!
The difference between an Airbus and a Boeing is that had this spectacular manoeuvre been attempted in a Boeing the aircraft would have crashed at the the start of the runway instead of at the end! The bottom line is the guy blew it in spades and it was nothing to do with the aircraft which did its best for him.
I hope that very basic explanation is some help to people in explaining how even the most superb of aircraft cannot provide indefinite protection from overwhelming foolishness. For what it is worth, from what has been described here the 'flypast' alluded to previously was simply a standard go-around and sounded totally safe and normal to me.
The A320 family has, among numerous other protections, a facility called 'Alpha Floor'. In essence this facility automatically selects TOGA power regardless of the position of the thrust levers if it detects a low energy situation. It becomes active when the the alpha (aoa) of the aircraft decays below Alpha Prot (the angle of attack when the sidestick starts to control alpha directly) and before the stall aoa known as Alpha Max. As all Airbus pilots will know it is not possible to command an aoa more than Alpha Max in normal operation regardless of how hard you pull back on the side stick. Nonetheless it is clearly not desireable to have a very high aoa and low energy, hence Alpha Floor kicks in to provide the necessary power to get out of the situation.
What the AF pilot did not realise was that Alpha Floor is only active from take-off to 100' radio on landing, and when he did his fancy manoeuvre he was below 100'! Therefore Alpha Floor never kicked in as he expected. Being an Airbus it just sat there at a high (but totally safe!) aoa moving gracefully just above the runway. By the time the AF pilot realised that he was not going to get TOGA power automatically through the Alpha Floor facility he manually selected TOGA by pushing the levers forward. The engines spooled up as normal (fairly slowly like all jet engines) and because he had used up so much runway he was unable to get a positive rate of climb on to climb above the trees at the end of the runway. He therefore flew in controlled flight straight into the trees with the engines in the process of spooling up as normal!
The difference between an Airbus and a Boeing is that had this spectacular manoeuvre been attempted in a Boeing the aircraft would have crashed at the the start of the runway instead of at the end! The bottom line is the guy blew it in spades and it was nothing to do with the aircraft which did its best for him.
I hope that very basic explanation is some help to people in explaining how even the most superb of aircraft cannot provide indefinite protection from overwhelming foolishness. For what it is worth, from what has been described here the 'flypast' alluded to previously was simply a standard go-around and sounded totally safe and normal to me.
Last edited by Norman Stanley Fletcher; 11th Oct 2003 at 07:30.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank You
Norman Stanley Fletcher (;-)
Thank you for your superb explanation of the A320 crash. I have been wondering for ages what exactly happened to make it crash in such a horrifically spectacular and public fashion.
Am quite amazed that the pilot was not aware of the 100 ft+ "alpha floor" restriction.
Thank you for your superb explanation of the A320 crash. I have been wondering for ages what exactly happened to make it crash in such a horrifically spectacular and public fashion.
Am quite amazed that the pilot was not aware of the 100 ft+ "alpha floor" restriction.
Norman Stanley Fletcher,
Thank you for an excellent description of some of the Airbus protection systems, but please could you clarify one point:
Should that read "......... not possible to command an aoa more than Alpha Max ......." ?
Thank you for an excellent description of some of the Airbus protection systems, but please could you clarify one point:
As all Airbus pilots will know it is not possible to command an aoa less than Alpha Max in normal operation regardless of how hard you pull back on the side stick.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middle East
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's also not forget that Habsheim is essentially a field for light and general aviation a/c. The runway certainly isn't long enough for an A320 in normal operations and this was also factor in the accident. Many who watch the video think that the aircraft was demonstrating at an airfield it had taken off from - it hadn't.
If this fly-by had been at an airfield with a long enough runway for a big jet, and one clearer of obstacles at the end than Habsheim, then he'd have had time to fly out of it before hitting something....
Looking at the crash footage it seems a miracle that anyone got out alive - as it was I recall there were only one or two fatalities, but that's too many considering this was an entirely avoidable accident!
If this fly-by had been at an airfield with a long enough runway for a big jet, and one clearer of obstacles at the end than Habsheim, then he'd have had time to fly out of it before hitting something....
Looking at the crash footage it seems a miracle that anyone got out alive - as it was I recall there were only one or two fatalities, but that's too many considering this was an entirely avoidable accident!
IF this manoeuvre, or any of the other coffee-spilling activities had resulted in a serious accident, just think of the press coverage...
The airline's brand new aeroplane, and a fair number of its pilots and other employees wiped out.
Would EZY/EZS have survived the (uninformed and sensationalised) press coverage? I think not.
Whilst the manouevres were undoubtedly properly cleared, planned and executed, I view the management decision behind this as inept.
If I were the CEO, heads would roll.
The airline's brand new aeroplane, and a fair number of its pilots and other employees wiped out.
Would EZY/EZS have survived the (uninformed and sensationalised) press coverage? I think not.
Whilst the manouevres were undoubtedly properly cleared, planned and executed, I view the management decision behind this as inept.
If I were the CEO, heads would roll.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LGS6753
I'm reminded of an A A Milne story that goes something like -
Whinnie-the-Poo and Piglet are out walking on a blustery day and Piglet turns to Whinnie-the-Poo and says, "supposing that tree falls down on top of us and kills us". Whinnie-the-Poo turns to Piglet and says, "Supposing it doesn't" !!!
Yes, any accident isn't going to help EasyJet but if we've got to watch our heads when we perform any 'properly cleared, planned and executed manoeuvre (max x-wind/Cat 3 approaches to minimums etc) - then we might as well give up now!!!!!!!
I'm reminded of an A A Milne story that goes something like -
Whinnie-the-Poo and Piglet are out walking on a blustery day and Piglet turns to Whinnie-the-Poo and says, "supposing that tree falls down on top of us and kills us". Whinnie-the-Poo turns to Piglet and says, "Supposing it doesn't" !!!
Yes, any accident isn't going to help EasyJet but if we've got to watch our heads when we perform any 'properly cleared, planned and executed manoeuvre (max x-wind/Cat 3 approaches to minimums etc) - then we might as well give up now!!!!!!!
If I were the CEO, heads would roll.
What? You are going to sack the pilots for performing a perfectly safe flight as requested.
This isn't - as I pointed out earlier - the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps my friend. An A319 is just an aeroplane and believe it or not you can just look out of the window and fly quite low and be careful not to hit the ground.
Would you also cancel the upcoming Conorde fleet flybys? If so have you ever hankered after a career as a Traffic Warden at all?
Cheers
WWW
What? You are going to sack the pilots for performing a perfectly safe flight as requested.
This isn't - as I pointed out earlier - the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps my friend. An A319 is just an aeroplane and believe it or not you can just look out of the window and fly quite low and be careful not to hit the ground.
Would you also cancel the upcoming Conorde fleet flybys? If so have you ever hankered after a career as a Traffic Warden at all?
Cheers
WWW
More likely a wheel-clamper.
And I bet he wears his yellow road-digger's bib with pride.... Probably between crew bus and car park, in case he gets run over.
And I bet he wears his yellow road-digger's bib with pride.... Probably between crew bus and car park, in case he gets run over.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London
Posts: 389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am amazed at how many professional pilots out there clearly are so concerned about pilot's abilities that this fly-by has been totally blown out of proportion. I presume the flyby was carried out by one of the senior / training Captains and with the correct briefings etc. all carried out, and no doubt with a third person on the flight deck given the amount of training which is going on whenever a new fleet is introduced.
If we all have so little confidence in such a senior crew member descending on an ILS to 100' before flying along the runway and climbing away (at an airport he is totally familiar with having operated through on hundreds/thousands of sectors), then I think I'll take the bus in future.
No-one is suggesting that this becomes a routine manoeuvre for anyone anytime, but do you all really have so little confidence in your own abilities?
If we all have so little confidence in such a senior crew member descending on an ILS to 100' before flying along the runway and climbing away (at an airport he is totally familiar with having operated through on hundreds/thousands of sectors), then I think I'll take the bus in future.
No-one is suggesting that this becomes a routine manoeuvre for anyone anytime, but do you all really have so little confidence in your own abilities?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LGW
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
for all you guys out there who don't approve of what easyjet has carried out here, what about the times when you are due to land, and there is an undercarriage problem? Sime pilots will bounce along the runway and see if that will be enough to release the stuck gear! This happens with pax on. So what???? It is perfectly safe with or without pax on board. Get a grip for gods sake
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I imagine that the two guys who did this fly-by/go-around were very experienced, and not just a couple of training captains who had recently done ' the conversion course.' Most airbus pilots I know don't mess around with the aircraft, as they find out something completely new, and often very surprising, about the way it works on one or two occassions each month. Quite a humbling experience.
I have been flying the airbus for a few years now, and definately would not attempt anything outside a normal routine A to B scenario. Other aircraft that I've flown in the past - yes , but not with an Airbus.
As many in Easyjet are about to find out, it is an excellent passenger aircraft with a fantastic level of safety - but it is not nearly as conventional as the manufacturer would lead you to believe on a two month course at Toulouse. There are lots of little 'surprises' - like the lack of automatic full power prior to a stalling angle of attack, when in landing config and the aircraft is below 100ft as mentioned by Norman Stanly Fletcher. Another little 'got-ya' is attempting to do a go-around before telling the aircraft that it is in the 'approach phase' of the flight - now that is virtually guaranteed to bust you past the flap limiting speed.
I have been flying the airbus for a few years now, and definately would not attempt anything outside a normal routine A to B scenario. Other aircraft that I've flown in the past - yes , but not with an Airbus.
As many in Easyjet are about to find out, it is an excellent passenger aircraft with a fantastic level of safety - but it is not nearly as conventional as the manufacturer would lead you to believe on a two month course at Toulouse. There are lots of little 'surprises' - like the lack of automatic full power prior to a stalling angle of attack, when in landing config and the aircraft is below 100ft as mentioned by Norman Stanly Fletcher. Another little 'got-ya' is attempting to do a go-around before telling the aircraft that it is in the 'approach phase' of the flight - now that is virtually guaranteed to bust you past the flap limiting speed.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: North of London
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of you may have forgotten the arrival of EZYG, the first of the 33V built to EZY's own spec, about 5 years ago. It was flown in from Seattle by two senior comapny pilots and did a low fly-by at about the same height, also pre-arranged with the tower at LTN I don't think I heard anything about it that time! Admittedly, if didn't have comapny staff on board, but it was no fuss then.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid that Norman SF didn't state the full Habsheim scenario. It was worse than that ! The pilot disabled the autothrust, and flew above the runway at radio height 30 feet at alpha max (almost stall), with the copilot controlling the thrust - almost at idle. The trees at the end were about 80 feet high. TOGA was not applied until about 4 seconds before impact. What is the spool up time of a jet engine on the approach ?? Exactly !! The accident was bound to happen as soon as the aircraft was less than 8 seconds from the trees. At impact the engines were spooling rapidly towards TOGA.
Given the same scenario, that accident would have ocurred in a B747, B737, DC9 or ANY turbojet aircraft.
Given the same scenario, that accident would have ocurred in a B747, B737, DC9 or ANY turbojet aircraft.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that. It is worth pointing out that the 'Alpha Floor' function I discussed in a previous post will work regardless of the position of the thrust levers or whether or not the autothrust is armed. The only thing that can prevent it from working is if the autothrust is disabled or unserviceable in some way. To actually disable it would require pulling of CBs which is clearly very unwise! If, however, someone is desparate to crash then there is ultimately nothing anyone can do to stop them!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norman Stanley Fletcher
That's not entirely true...
Pushing either of the instinctive disconnect pushbuttons on the thrust levers for more than 15 seconds disconnects the autothrust for the rest of the flight (including Alpha floor!).
It can only be rest at next FMGC power up (on the ground).
Cheers
CTB
That's not entirely true...
Pushing either of the instinctive disconnect pushbuttons on the thrust levers for more than 15 seconds disconnects the autothrust for the rest of the flight (including Alpha floor!).
It can only be rest at next FMGC power up (on the ground).
Cheers
CTB
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
calltheball -
You are quite right, but I have to say that other than this incident I have never known of any occasion where anyone has ever done this! I personally can see no reason why anyone would ever want to use this facility. You learn about it in groundschool and quickly put it in the deep recesses of your brain for some strange occasion you hope never arises!
You are quite right, but I have to say that other than this incident I have never known of any occasion where anyone has ever done this! I personally can see no reason why anyone would ever want to use this facility. You learn about it in groundschool and quickly put it in the deep recesses of your brain for some strange occasion you hope never arises!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Bedfordshire
Age: 43
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This has been blown out of proportion as much as Jordan's chest...
So we want to ban go-arounds, touch and gos, flybys as they're considered dangerous? what the hell lets scrap airshows aswell as the pilots are obviously risking life and limb there too!
So we want to ban go-arounds, touch and gos, flybys as they're considered dangerous? what the hell lets scrap airshows aswell as the pilots are obviously risking life and limb there too!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: london
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No sig,
20 min turnround no problem if all in place for an A319.
PMSL,LOL,PMSL.
My dear chap they cannot turn a b737 around in 30 minutes with forward stairs already fitted !
Dream on!
Thought youd left the orange padded room anyway!
20 min turnround no problem if all in place for an A319.
PMSL,LOL,PMSL.
My dear chap they cannot turn a b737 around in 30 minutes with forward stairs already fitted !
Dream on!
Thought youd left the orange padded room anyway!