Passengers to sue airline over Captain's PAs
Join Date: May 2003
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GB, don't be too hard on BA. A few years back, I was pax on MUC-LHR 757. As we boarded, RB211's were gently windmilling with the usual clunking of the fan blades, some pax were obviously concerned and brought this to the attention of the CC.
Once airborne the Capt. came on the P.A. to allay fears, said he would send the F.O. outside to check all was ok with the engines when we reached cruise level. Everyone enjoyed a laugh.
Before descent he offered the jumpseat to any pax or wannabee who would like to view the approach to LHR. Great flight.
Pity neither of the above are acceptable any longer in our p.c. sterile environment.
Once airborne the Capt. came on the P.A. to allay fears, said he would send the F.O. outside to check all was ok with the engines when we reached cruise level. Everyone enjoyed a laugh.
Before descent he offered the jumpseat to any pax or wannabee who would like to view the approach to LHR. Great flight.
Pity neither of the above are acceptable any longer in our p.c. sterile environment.
Evertonian
Just read on Dunnunda about a Virgin Blue FA calling "Brace, brace, brace" whilst taxiing! Don't know if it's true, but...oh dear!
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Always thought that the best solution was to have the First Officer give the PA...as generally they seem to do a better job anyway. That, and a couple of extra sectors (beyond every other) keeps 'em smiling.
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Whether suing or not is appropriate, I cannot judge.
It is a clear fact that it is neighter professional nor psychological wise to make ambiguous announcements, that can be understand as cheerful or frightening. You just don't do it! Period.
Pilots who do are eighter too funny to think or never understood the CRM lession "Begin to think what the others think about your statements". Flying business is never stick and throttle only, but taking a lot of different factors into consideration, of which one is practical psychology. I am shure this Brazilian commander behaves the same with his crew: with disrespect
Dani
It is a clear fact that it is neighter professional nor psychological wise to make ambiguous announcements, that can be understand as cheerful or frightening. You just don't do it! Period.
Pilots who do are eighter too funny to think or never understood the CRM lession "Begin to think what the others think about your statements". Flying business is never stick and throttle only, but taking a lot of different factors into consideration, of which one is practical psychology. I am shure this Brazilian commander behaves the same with his crew: with disrespect
Dani
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Jerricho
I hate ambulance chasers too
Gatwick Bugle
"Regular BA pax must wince or just not listen to the same old banaal, trite, schmalz that is always churned out"
Well I'm a regular BA pax and I don't find the scripting offensive, in fact I believe that the demonstrated discpiline of sticking to SOPS in airline Ops is a very Good Thing.
I hate ambulance chasers too
Gatwick Bugle
"Regular BA pax must wince or just not listen to the same old banaal, trite, schmalz that is always churned out"
Well I'm a regular BA pax and I don't find the scripting offensive, in fact I believe that the demonstrated discpiline of sticking to SOPS in airline Ops is a very Good Thing.
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Re the train that allegedly was speeding... Am I missing something? Isn't it completely appropriate for the incident (including the physical condition of the conductor) to be investigated? I should think it would be mandatory. Derailments do happen, and can be just as unfortunate for passengers as flying accidents.
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BrightonGirl
I think you are missing the point. It is totally impossible for a punter on a train to know if a train is on 2 wheels (4 actualy, total of 8 on most coaches). I think this is actually an impossible situation without a major accident. What we are actually looking at is uninformed punters making wild speculations about somthing they know nothing about. Result is that an industry that is paranoid about percieved safety totally over reacts so that they are seen to take the 'incident' seriously. Result one suspended proffessional, 1 train out of action resulting in umpteen delays and cancellations and associted costs of all other aspects of the 'investigation'. Why? because they are all to scarred to tell the proles their allegations are tripe and to tell them to **** off.
relate this to aviation, the 'see you in court mentality' and the ability of the media to make a typhoon out of the dregs in your tea cup and you should get the message!
I think you are missing the point. It is totally impossible for a punter on a train to know if a train is on 2 wheels (4 actualy, total of 8 on most coaches). I think this is actually an impossible situation without a major accident. What we are actually looking at is uninformed punters making wild speculations about somthing they know nothing about. Result is that an industry that is paranoid about percieved safety totally over reacts so that they are seen to take the 'incident' seriously. Result one suspended proffessional, 1 train out of action resulting in umpteen delays and cancellations and associted costs of all other aspects of the 'investigation'. Why? because they are all to scarred to tell the proles their allegations are tripe and to tell them to **** off.
relate this to aviation, the 'see you in court mentality' and the ability of the media to make a typhoon out of the dregs in your tea cup and you should get the message!
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mgc,
Of course I don't know the details, but it seems to me that passengers who might travel that same train often could conceivably know when it's going faster around a curve than it usually does. And if baggage is being tossed around? Even allowing for some exaggeration -- and I'm not saying there mightn't be some in the account posted -- I don't see why the perceptions of any and all passengers would be deemed up-front to be worthless.
Maybe it's highly unlikely that the wheels on one side had actually left the tracks, but going through a curve or a turn with more centrifugal force than usual is something an alert passenger could notice accurately.
Rail accidents do occur, and I just think it's always wise to err [perhaps] on the side of safety. And for the authorities to err [perhaps] on the side of vigilance.
Which is exactly what I've noticed most pprune pilots think is appropriate in the air.
Of course I don't know the details, but it seems to me that passengers who might travel that same train often could conceivably know when it's going faster around a curve than it usually does. And if baggage is being tossed around? Even allowing for some exaggeration -- and I'm not saying there mightn't be some in the account posted -- I don't see why the perceptions of any and all passengers would be deemed up-front to be worthless.
Maybe it's highly unlikely that the wheels on one side had actually left the tracks, but going through a curve or a turn with more centrifugal force than usual is something an alert passenger could notice accurately.
Rail accidents do occur, and I just think it's always wise to err [perhaps] on the side of safety. And for the authorities to err [perhaps] on the side of vigilance.
Which is exactly what I've noticed most pprune pilots think is appropriate in the air.
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mgc
I heard a wagn spokesman responding to the story on the radio.
The company admits the train was exceeding the speed limit, aka operating outside approved limits. (Don't a certain airline get stick on this board for similar alleged acts in the air and during taxi?)
Maybe the proles understand a little more than you give credit for.
Why? because they are all to scarred to tell the proles their allegations are tripe and to tell them to **** off.
The company admits the train was exceeding the speed limit, aka operating outside approved limits. (Don't a certain airline get stick on this board for similar alleged acts in the air and during taxi?)
Maybe the proles understand a little more than you give credit for.
Ohcirrej
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Maybe it wasn't exceeding speed limits.................
Maybe for the first time in history the train actually reached the posted speed limit!! No buckled tracks, no leaves on the line, no "wrong snow". The driver probably though "Let's do it!!!"
Maybe for the first time in history the train actually reached the posted speed limit!! No buckled tracks, no leaves on the line, no "wrong snow". The driver probably though "Let's do it!!!"
This is your captain speaking.
I hope you are enjoying your flight with xx airlines.
Those of you on the starboard side of the aircraft may be able to see a small, yellow dinghy.
I am speaking to you from that small, yellow dinghy...
I hope you are enjoying your flight with xx airlines.
Those of you on the starboard side of the aircraft may be able to see a small, yellow dinghy.
I am speaking to you from that small, yellow dinghy...
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Good morning, everyone, this is your captain speaking. Welcome to flight ###. Passengers on the right side of the aircraft, look to your left. Passengers on the left, look to your right. SMILE....SAY "HI!"...
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brightongirl and final3greens
I'm a bit surprised by your last postings
There are many reports and threads on these pages of uniformed passengers making outrageous accusations of breechs of safety. It is normal for air accident investigators to take all reports and statements from non proffessional witnessess with extreme caution due to well documented tendancies for the uninformed to see/ hear/ feel things that never happened or that happened in a different order to what the observer belived to happen. Why should things been different on the railways?
I would never suggest that safety should be compromised- BUT totally outrageous accusations should be treated as such. That is largely where this thread started from. We are plagued by self appointed 'experts' who know more than the true experts. It is these self appointed experts who often start the legislative process, beliving that they can make a case to win compensation. It is now widely accepted in technical / engineering circles that legal truth and real truth are two very different things
I'm a bit surprised by your last postings
There are many reports and threads on these pages of uniformed passengers making outrageous accusations of breechs of safety. It is normal for air accident investigators to take all reports and statements from non proffessional witnessess with extreme caution due to well documented tendancies for the uninformed to see/ hear/ feel things that never happened or that happened in a different order to what the observer belived to happen. Why should things been different on the railways?
I would never suggest that safety should be compromised- BUT totally outrageous accusations should be treated as such. That is largely where this thread started from. We are plagued by self appointed 'experts' who know more than the true experts. It is these self appointed experts who often start the legislative process, beliving that they can make a case to win compensation. It is now widely accepted in technical / engineering circles that legal truth and real truth are two very different things
Last edited by mgc; 4th Sep 2003 at 08:54.
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I'm reminded of an incident not long ago, with our local suburban trains, where some peak hour trains pass through a couple of stations without stopping. Needless to say, they travel faster at certain places because of this. One such place was where a branch line joined, and there was always a lot of noise and lurching due to traversing the points.
I used to take the fast train at times, and was truly amazed at how fast a driver would take a train through that spot, with the carriages lurching from side-to-side, with standing passengers being thrown off their feet. During my holiday week, a train derailed at that very spot, due to a broken rail. I don't recall if there were any fatalities, but obviously that was an extremely dangerous occurrence.
At what point am I allowed to have an opinion on this sort of event? (I wasn't uniformed incidentally)
I used to take the fast train at times, and was truly amazed at how fast a driver would take a train through that spot, with the carriages lurching from side-to-side, with standing passengers being thrown off their feet. During my holiday week, a train derailed at that very spot, due to a broken rail. I don't recall if there were any fatalities, but obviously that was an extremely dangerous occurrence.
At what point am I allowed to have an opinion on this sort of event? (I wasn't uniformed incidentally)
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what opinion do you want to have.
that trains lurch when going fast over junctions?
that trains going fast over junctions= broken rails?
that if trains lurch people get jostled about?
that trains going fast over junctions is dangerous?
that trains are dangerous?
You are entiltled to your view on all the above. It does not however mean that all your views are correct. Your views on 1 and 3 are probably correct, bassed on repeated observed cause and effect. Your view on 2 is almost certainly biased by one incident close to you. You are however unlikely to have much experience to draw any meaningful scientific conclusion. In this respect you are uninformed and your view, scientifically, counts for nothing. 4 and 5 are unquantified. 4 is a qualification of 5. It may be your view that 4 is more dangerous than 5, but still unquantified and therefore to all intense and purpose meaningless for most scientific purposes!
Sorry if thats confusing, but thats the way it is. Neither does it mean that any of your views and experiences are any the less valid for you.
that trains lurch when going fast over junctions?
that trains going fast over junctions= broken rails?
that if trains lurch people get jostled about?
that trains going fast over junctions is dangerous?
that trains are dangerous?
You are entiltled to your view on all the above. It does not however mean that all your views are correct. Your views on 1 and 3 are probably correct, bassed on repeated observed cause and effect. Your view on 2 is almost certainly biased by one incident close to you. You are however unlikely to have much experience to draw any meaningful scientific conclusion. In this respect you are uninformed and your view, scientifically, counts for nothing. 4 and 5 are unquantified. 4 is a qualification of 5. It may be your view that 4 is more dangerous than 5, but still unquantified and therefore to all intense and purpose meaningless for most scientific purposes!
Sorry if thats confusing, but thats the way it is. Neither does it mean that any of your views and experiences are any the less valid for you.
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Just interested where you draw the line on anyone knowing anything at all. Regardless of the laws of physics and metallurgy then, I suppose it was a sparrow landing on the rail that broke it.
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Its very simple
If their statement contains outrageous statements (to the informed) i place very little credit to the remainder of their statement, until proven otherwise.
If their statement seams viable (to the informed) I will treat it with the respect it deserves.
That is why accident investigators, be it AAI or HMRI tend to be the most informed available so that they can sort the gems from chaff.
If their statement contains outrageous statements (to the informed) i place very little credit to the remainder of their statement, until proven otherwise.
If their statement seams viable (to the informed) I will treat it with the respect it deserves.
That is why accident investigators, be it AAI or HMRI tend to be the most informed available so that they can sort the gems from chaff.
Grim Sleeper
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Personally I am glad that the vast majority of passengers remain largely ignorant of the intricacies of air travel. At least it confines the lawsuits to matters of comfort and perceived fears rather than any concrete critique of our performance by passengers who know *just* enough to be dangerous......
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i have to agree with slim20 ignorance is definately bliss!!
A little knowledge is dangerous. Ive had the great pleasure of having to straghten out a few PAX.
Favourite example: PAX "what is that coast line ahead?"
(after asking Cpt) SA " the French coast Nice and Cannes ahead
PAX: "No it isnt it cant be"
SA "Madam if the captain says its the french coast line then you better hope it is"
A little knowledge is dangerous. Ive had the great pleasure of having to straghten out a few PAX.
Favourite example: PAX "what is that coast line ahead?"
(after asking Cpt) SA " the French coast Nice and Cannes ahead
PAX: "No it isnt it cant be"
SA "Madam if the captain says its the french coast line then you better hope it is"