Spotters released on bail
 

Just seen on Sky that the spotters in Greece have (are being) released on unconditional bail, set at 5million Drachma (9000 pounds).

The charges have also been reduced from spying to "accessing military secrets" which carries lesser punishments (don't know what kind though).

They will be going home as soon as the bail money is posted and they can expect to wait about 12 months for the trial.

The lesser charge could carry a five year sentence, but is unlikely to hold water - the Order of Battle for the Greek military being in the public domain as it is.

I for one am relieved that their ordeal is at least partly over, and the bail shouldn't be a problem to the Daily Mail and Stelios - should it? :D :D :D :D

Bail ? Hah ! Ransom more like it, or a fine if you prefer. The spotters would be stupid to go back and stand trial on what all except the Greeks recognize as a trumped-up charge. Of course some would say they are indeed stupid already, but 6 weeks in gaol is excessive for that. Did I mention it was 6 weeks without being charged ?
HM Govt. should provide the money simply for not having had the ba||s to get it sorted a long time ago. Just withhold the amount from your EU contribution - £100k less for them to p|ss away on god-knows-what.

Yes I know, the Greek Govt is not able to influence their judiciary (yeah, right). The Greek military sure does though, and I suppose it's understandable to be afraid of them. After all if they don't like the way the country is governed, they just stage a coup.

Perhaps habeas corpus is confusing because it's Latin ?

I noticed a government minister (non U.K.)quoted in the press, describing plane spotting as "an Arcane hobby" ...... so I looked it up and found that Arcane means ......

known or understood by only a few ...
mysterious knowledge ....
secret .....
hidden ....

phew !!!

I've just looked in my dictionary as well. The origin of the word arcane is the latin verb "arcere" which means to shut up.
How appropriate!

I think the British Foreign Office through the Embassy in Athens should have had the guts to restore our dignity, by going and paying the bail in cash.
How the hell did Greece get in to the EU anyway? They block and veto everything they can. Makes themfeel important I suppose, from not just being another Balkan breed, which they are.

Funny to hear the Greeks described as the guys who block and veto everything in the EU. I thought that was us????

Yes stupid charges and all but stupid spotters for getting themselves into the situation in the first place. Its not as if they weren't warned.

Remember we've only heard the Greek version so far.....heard last night from a friend of the accused that the warnings were not quite as strict as they would have us believe - the full story, when it comes out, should make interesting reading. I had an e-mail from the Greek embassy saying that prison conditions were good, and we all know that ain't so.

Just spoke with the wife of one of the Brits....the Dutch government put up the cash and their two left yesterday; kinda makes you proud to be British :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: At least Stelios is reserving twelve seats on tomorrow's evening flight out of Athens for free....good on yer mate!!

easyJet.....the spotter's favourite airline :) :) :) :)

Can anyone give me a logical reason why the British government should have put up the bail money? I for one would have been VERY upset to see my taxes go to that particular cause! (I suspect the money will come from the newspapers anyway).

I applaud Stelios' gesture, but bail money coming out of public funds? No way. Many people only have limited sympathy for the spotters - I am sorry if they have been kept in poor conditions in prison, for example, but you can't go to other countries and break their law and expect to be let off because you're a foreigner. As many people pointed out on the previous thread - the spotters need to take responsibility for their actions.

Nah.....I wouldn't have expected the British Government to do ANYTHING at this stage; after all, with the notable exception of the British Consul and MEP Richard Howitt, they've done nothing noticeable about this case except keep an eye on developments - and make a few lily-livered statements. As we speak, the first ones are out of prison, and to any ppruners who lent their support - a big THANK YOU. To anyone who stayed out of it - at least you were neutral. And to anyone who said that they should all have been locked up indefinitely and face the full wrath of the Greek judiciary - you're lucky that this is a virtual forum.......

Oh come on NOPAX.

They broke the law, plain and simple. I don't think it matters a toss whether the warnings were not as strict as they should have been. I do agree however that the punishments dished out so far are way out of order.

I can understand where you are coming from, you appear to be much closer to 'the action' than the rest of us, but from what I've read both here on PPRuNe and other sources, Paul Coppin is not the innocent he is being portrayed as. You cannot go abroad, totally disregard the laws of the county and say, when caught, I'm only pursuing my hobby.

I have never been on one of his tours but I know people who have and it doesn't matter where they go, PC and a few of his Generals have to get 'one more number'.

I sincerley hope they get home safe and have a wonderful Christmas with their families.

Well, at least we agree on most things....check my posting carefully - I said those who thought they ALL should have the book thrown at them, etc, etc. Some of these people had not been on a Touchdown Tour before and went like lambs; and you know how many recipes the Greeks have for lamb..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ladies and Gents
Can we sort this out once and for all-I get a bit fed up reading the " they broke the law".
I myself broke the law doing 71mph on the motorway.
The problem has been the punishment set out by the little tin pot dictators.

What a complete and utter farce, the icing on the cake being Judges going on strike, and lawyers unable to get to court because of a transport strike.

Can I remind everyone (esp Turkish Air Force), for details of intelligence on Greek Air Force, including numbers and types, please read thread in Jet Blast on Jeremy Clarkson

mach 78

If you get caught doing 1mph over the limit you will have no problems accepting your punishment then will you?

You totally missed my point though. It's one thing knowing what the Greeks have in their inventory, it's an entirely different matter when you turn up at the base, 'alledgedly' take the serials and photos of said inventory, knowing you have been told this is illegal beforehand.

Dear .."outback" Balkan Breed??? Open a history book it looks you have plenty of free time. :eek:

All released. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1707686.stm

MARE - perhaps you are trying to tell me that present- day Greeks are related in some way to learned and civilized ancient Greek Nation.
I think not. The behaviour of the Greek beaurocracy in the past month or so would
relate them more to the cess-pit of the Balkans.

Evanelpus

And my point went completely over your head.
As you obviously don't realise, you are NOT prosecuted by travelling at 71mph, although it IS an offence.
The question of accepting "punishment" as you put it, simply does not arise.

As most law officers realise,one of the most powerful tools they have is that of discretion, which can add credibility to the legal process when used sensibly.

In this particular case there was no discretion whatsoever,- although there is hope for the future.

Perhaps it's too much of a jump for you to draw any inference from this with the experience of the spotters.

Let me spell it out for you-you don't need a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: mach78 ]

I am not posting my personal opinion, for obvious reasons :-) I'll just quote the letter, that I read in a newspaper.
By the way, we do have a strong relation with the ancient Hellenes my friend, like it or not :)
But that's a completely another issue, irrelevant in this case!
Enjoy ...

"
Paying the penalty

IN REPLY to Mr Harley's ridiculous letter (November 30) about the British plane spotters held in Greece: I am British, live in the UK and I am not appalled by the action of the Greek authorities. The plane spotters broke the rules, now they must pay the penalty. I have visited Greek airfields on a number of occasions.

Signs are clearly posted stating "NO PHOTOGRAPHY" in Greek and English. Mr Harley thinks that these can be ignored because the information is available on the internet. He also thinks that as RAF airfields allow some photography, the same rules should apply in Greece. This is nonsense.

It is true that there is a lot of information on the internet. So what? The inside of Buckingham Palace is on the internet. Does this mean we can all break in to photograph it?

I am sure that anyone attempting to take photographs in a restricted zone on a British base would almost certainly be arrested. Imagine if someone went onto an American airfield that states "No Unauthorised personnel beyond this point" and argued with USAF Security that "It's OK, I'm British".

When I am in Greece and I see a road speed limit that says 60 km/h, I would need to be pretty stupid to say "But in Britain its 120km/h so I will go faster". This is exactly what Mr Harley is suggesting.

As a Briton, I am embarrassed at these plane-spotting idiots trying to be clever. They are no better than the drunken tourists who earn Britain a bad reputation across the world. I am sure that the Greek authorities will eventually get tired of having to feed these morons and release them, but I hope that they are banned from Greece for life.

Rob Allwright

London

"

Thanks for that quote Capt Andreas- we must be happy for small mercies- at least you saved us from reading much of your own original cerebrally-challenged material!

Perhaps you were too tired to write an original piece-it does get hot out there. Never mind, get one of those old history books out and remind yourself how great you were!


Ah the ancient nostalgia!

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: mach78 ]

Did someone say "those tourist that earn *Britain* a bad reputation throughout the world???
Mmmmmmhh?
I believe 10 or 12 are 'Brits'(English) & 2 are Dutch.
BBC news are the worst.......Good news, we are 'English,' & bad news we are 'British.'
'Anglo- French' Blah blah blah

Of course in this day and age such attitudes by the Greek gov. are outdated with all the high tec ways of obtaining visual information BUT that does not negate the fact that the airports in Greece are well placarded by DO NOT PHOTOGRAPH. Therefore these plane spotters should respect the area that they are planning to photograph and accept the consequences. :mad:

Good writings Andreas, you are a true 'Kalamaras'
If I came from Hellenic stock I would have written:


I think the Greeks are quite right in protecting their security for which they are so admirably renowned. An example to all these second-class EU countries. Passengers and crews should appreciate this unrelenting vigilance. It instills confidence with all those flying in or out of Greece - military or civil.
Innocent plane-spotters? It could have been one of these spying foreigners who placed a bomb on the BEA comet at Athens airport in 1967 killing all on board (Ath/Nic).
You should also bear in mind that the language is superior, and little understood or appreciated by the rest of the world. It makes foreigners think we related to that other Greek civilisation many centuries ago which was the cradle of civilisation etc.etc.
Anyway the tourists think so!
We stood back to back and died to the last man on the Parthenon to defend our marbles
(although we were only told what they really were when the tourists started to arrive)
In the event they were flogged to an 'Englezi' second-hand dealer called Elgin,who did know what they were.
And, with our little kilts we will defend to the last against any Johnny Turk - we don't need your Byrons (Lord George Byron founded the first plane-spotters association)
So, foreigners, reflect on all this before you cast the first stone. You will always enjoy renowned Greek hospitality (If you have money to pay for it of course!!) :p

Dear outback, it seems you had a bad time here in Greece (Balkan breed..cess-pit..second class EU countries..), we are very sorry for that.No need to reply.

No, Mare my friend ,the point is that it was others who had a bad time in your country in case you had forgotten.....

I thought that was a British speciality.

Well! I sense bitterness in the ... air :-)
I wonder why!! Anyway I just quoted Mr.Rob Allwright from London.
I do not (really) understand the history lessons, the air-disaster lessons, the down under lessons (numbered or not).
I thought this posting was all about planespotting!!!
Sorry to bother you, but I'll just go do some planeflying and leave the spotting to you :)

I see Andreas, you come from Athens HELL-AS.
I apologise, I thought you were from Greece which is in the EU

There's a lot of talk about photography going on....the one guy out of the group that I know had his film processed, and it was found to be of the Athens Museum (permitted) and a scrapyard (OK because it was not a military area). I've not seen it stated anywhere that any of the films contained any forbidden photos. If there had been, I think the spying charge would have stuck. The original charge was photography at Kalamata, but the cameras were in the bus. The truth will out one day, but the group have maintained that they did not take pictures in defiance of the rules. It still seems like a misunderstanding to me.

Hey Techman,
That's true, but unlike the ancient history you'd like to conjure up, our "greatness" is within living memory. :D

There is nothing more sad than a bunch of has beens, who can't let go of the past. ;)

Techman
Precisely, so why do you Geeks still keep harping on after two and a half millieniums??

And what makes you think that I'm Greek?.

Hey mach..........was that an intentional typo???

Well, I said the truth will out; here's a report from the other side. This is the e-mail sent to me by one of the group; it's also been posted on some enthusiasts' forums, so some of you may be aware of this already. Whether you choose to believe or not is up to you, but I've known this guy for thirty years, and I know who I believe!


"Having returned from 37 days captivity in Greece I have caught up on
some (by no means all) of the discussion on this and other forums. I am not
prepared to enter into debate on this topic (I will in due course be tried
by the Greek courts, not by MSF) and this will be my only posting on the
subject, but I feel compelled to present some facts, particularly in view of
the many inaccuracies I have noted in the media reporting of this ongoing
affair (even as recently as the Greek Ambassador's letter printed in today's
(Tuesday's) Daily Mail).

Allegation: "The group were arrested at Tanagra and warned not to continue".

Fact: The group were not arrested but assisted Police/HAF/Intelligence
officers with their enquiries (after a Greek civilian mistook use of
binoculars for photography). No warning was issued and the group were told
"You have done nothing illegal". The authorities apologised for delaying the
group. Interestingly, the Greek Ambassador's letter in today's Daily Mail
states
that the warning was given by a magistrate. This makes it all the easier to
prove
false since at no time was any magistrate involved in the check at Tanagra
at all.

Allegation: "They were warned three times and still took photographs".

Fact: At the three HAF Open Days attended by the group, guards at the gate
informed the group that photography was not permitted (it was permitted last
year). As a result, no photographs were taken and cameras remained secured
in
camera bags within the vehicles. At no point on the trip did ANY member of
the
group take ANY photographs at ANY Greek military installation.

Fact: Photographs were taken at Athens War Museum, Mesolongi (museum),
Vonitsa (scrap metal dealer - chopped up 1952/53 vintage F-84Fs), Hellenikon
(the old Athens civil airport, now superceded by Sparta).

Fact: All photographs (from films confiscated at Tanagra and Kalamata) have
been
perused by the authorities and have been assessed as having no security
implications.
Photographs no longer form part of the prosecution case, nor have they since
the end of our first week in captivity, despite their being quoted as the
basis
of the evidence for "espionage" charges (also no longer relevant) as
recently as last
Wednesday on CNN.

Allegation: "The group were intoxicated when apprehended".

Fact: I was frankly totally amazed to read of this allegation which I was
unaware of until my return. The group were apprehended at around 17:00hrs.
No alcohol had been consumed by any member of the group on the day in
question. Indeed, on the three previous nights no one had indulged in any
more than a few social drinks with their evening meal.

Opinion: In my opinion there are only two explanations for this allegation,
one would be an an error in translation ("The group were 'interrogated' when
apprehended"??) whilst the other is a deliberate and malicious attempt to
smear
the group.

Allegation: "The group trespassed on Greek military bases".

Fact: No trespass took place whatsoever. The three bases entered by the
group were Araxos, Andravidha and Kalamata at which we were admitted to the
open days upon production of passports. The trespass issue arose only
because the authorities believed that serials at Megara could only have been
obtained by trespassing on the base. Aircraft and helicopters at Megara can
be identified from public roads around the airfield using binoculars (and
indeed several can be read with the naked eye).

Allegation: "When the investigating officers analysed the logbooks kept by
the group,
they found those included flight timetables and eavesdropping on
conversations
between pilots and Air Force ground controllers".

Fact: The scanner inadvertantly taken by one member of the group was at no
time switched on in Greece. Therefore no conversations were overheard. Even
if
they had been, I presume military conversations would have been in Greek,
which
even after 37 days none of us speak. The first Greek military aircraft we
saw airborne
were seen from the courtroom in Kalamata during our first appearance. My own
log book
(which ended at Heathrow on departure) includes take-off and landing times
of those airliners
in which I have been a passenger during the last few months.

Fact: The scanner no longer forms part of the evidence against the group. An
expert witness appeared
on our behalf at the second court appearance and proved to the
interrogating magistrate that scanners
could be freely bought over the counter in Greece, were used by numerous
Greek radio hobbyists, and
that Greece was party to (though had not yet ratified) an EU law legalising
the use of scanners.

Other relevant facts are:-

This was the third occasion on which Touchdown had visited Greece. Previous
visits in 1998 and 2000
went off without a hitch. Photography was permitted at most bases in 2000
(the situation being checked
and double checked at each base).

The Hellenic AF had been informed in writing of the group's intention to
visit as many bases as possible during the HAF open days (8th-11th
November 2001). Despite this I have seen reference to Touchdown being
invited to
one Open Day and unilaterally extending the invite to include the rest. This
allegation is false.

Foreign nationals are (in recent years) permitted to attend these open days
without prior permission. Written authority to visit was sought and obtained
by Touchdown as a 'belt and braces' to prevent any misunderstandings (in
which respect it was obviously unsuccessful).

The Hellenic AF was in possession of names, passport numbers, dates of
birth, and occupations of all members of the group and approval had been
given
at Brigadier General level for Touchdown to attend the open days.

The group were sensitive to the post September 11th situation. The Hellenic
AF
were contacted by fax and by telephone in the final days before the trip in
the expectation that it would be cancelled. The response was reassuring and
encouraged Touchdown to go ahead as planned. If there was a problem due to
increased security, these communications would have been the ideal
opportunity to
close the trip down to the satisfaction of all concerned (both the Greeks
and the group).

The group were detained "for taking photographs" whilst attempting to leave
Kalamata base following their visit to the open day. As pointed out above,
no photographs were taken by any of the group at any Greek military base at
any
time during the trip.


My thanks to those who have expressed support and particularly to the many
who
have given so freely of their time to work towards our release. The many
messages of support and acts of kindness received by my family during my
absence,
and by all of us upon our return, have our heartfelt gratitude.

I have nothing to say to those who were so quick to offer public
condemnation
of the entire group (organisers and paying passengers alike) in the absence
of
any factual knowledge of the circumstances"

.......I've nothing to add to that!

NOPAXTHANX

Thanks for that posting which was very telling and justifies the position some of us adopted re this unsavoury incident

In regard to your earlier question-what do you think I meant?!!

Techman

Have you wrote anything that I am unaware of that would make me think otherwise?

Well Mach78, assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

For instance, you must be suffering from a severe case of xenophobia mixed with a good portion of a superiority complex, since you haven't written anything that would indicate otherwise.

But I would be wrong to assume so, would I not?.

Well I think what you were trying to elaborate was that ASSUME makes an ass of you and me(I know it's hard for you, but think about it)

Xenophobia?-no I would think not, but I would agree to an element of Darwinism, in comparison of us both.

Speaking of which I think you could be a prime candidate for a Darwin Award if you could only assimilate the necessary courage and do the right thing by the human race and remove your genes for the future benefit of mankind.

Thank you most kindly for confirming my assumption.