Boeing Starliner
Joined: Feb 2002
Aviation Qualifications: AME
Posts: 4,182
Likes: 1,116
From: UK
I'm sorry, but this is a major red flag! Critical control systems should not be leaking. Ever! Crazy that they've put people on this with such faults.
Boeing have really lost the plot.
Boeing have really lost the plot.
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,662
Likes: 7,348
From: Peripatetic
Finally docked at the ISS at the second attempt after more problems. Big pucker factor coming home if anything similar happens during re-entry.
The first docking approach was aborted when they were ordered to retreat to a holding pattern 200m away known as the “keep out sphere” after five of the manoeuvring thrusters failed to fire.
https://www.space.com/boeing-starlin...ocking-attempt
…..”Starliner missed its first docking chance, at 12:15 p.m. EDT (1615 GMT), after five of its 28 reaction-control thrusters malfunctioned. But the mission team got four of those impacted thrusters back online, and Starliner was cleared to approach the ISS in the next window.”….
The first docking approach was aborted when they were ordered to retreat to a holding pattern 200m away known as the “keep out sphere” after five of the manoeuvring thrusters failed to fire.
https://www.space.com/boeing-starlin...ocking-attempt
…..”Starliner missed its first docking chance, at 12:15 p.m. EDT (1615 GMT), after five of its 28 reaction-control thrusters malfunctioned. But the mission team got four of those impacted thrusters back online, and Starliner was cleared to approach the ISS in the next window.”….
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,662
Likes: 7,348
From: Peripatetic
Move along there folks! Nothing to see here….
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/0...finds-its-way/
….However, the Boeing official speaking to reporters on Thursday, Nappi, sought to downplay the severity of the issues confronted by Starliner and its flight controllers. There are two primary problems, he said, the helium leak and the intermittent thruster problems.
"Those are pretty small, really, issues to deal with," he said. "We’ll figure them out for the next mission. I don’t see these as significant at all."
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/0...finds-its-way/
….However, the Boeing official speaking to reporters on Thursday, Nappi, sought to downplay the severity of the issues confronted by Starliner and its flight controllers. There are two primary problems, he said, the helium leak and the intermittent thruster problems.
"Those are pretty small, really, issues to deal with," he said. "We’ll figure them out for the next mission. I don’t see these as significant at all."
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,662
Likes: 7,348
From: Peripatetic
https://spacenews.com/fifth-helium-l...-on-starliner/
Fifth helium leak detected on Starliner
WASHINGTON — NASA confirmed that Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft has suffered a fifth, although minor, helium leak in its propulsion system as engineers work to prepare the vehicle for its return to Earth next week.
In a June 10 statement, NASA mentioned that spacecraft teams were examining “what impacts, if any, five small leaks in the service module helium manifolds would have on the remainder of the mission.”
That was the first reference to there being five leaks in the spacecraft; NASA had mentioned there were four in a briefing hours after the spacecraft’s June 6 docking with the International Space Station.
In a June 11 statement to SpaceNews, NASA spokesperson Josh Finch said the fifth leak was detected around the time of that post-docking briefing. “The leak is considerably smaller than the others and has been recorded at 1.7 psi [pounds per square inch] per minute,” he said.…..
Fifth helium leak detected on Starliner
WASHINGTON — NASA confirmed that Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft has suffered a fifth, although minor, helium leak in its propulsion system as engineers work to prepare the vehicle for its return to Earth next week.
In a June 10 statement, NASA mentioned that spacecraft teams were examining “what impacts, if any, five small leaks in the service module helium manifolds would have on the remainder of the mission.”
That was the first reference to there being five leaks in the spacecraft; NASA had mentioned there were four in a briefing hours after the spacecraft’s June 6 docking with the International Space Station.
In a June 11 statement to SpaceNews, NASA spokesperson Josh Finch said the fifth leak was detected around the time of that post-docking briefing. “The leak is considerably smaller than the others and has been recorded at 1.7 psi [pounds per square inch] per minute,” he said.…..
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,662
Likes: 7,348
From: Peripatetic
https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/06/2...turn-to-earth/
NASA again delays Starliner undocking, return to Earth
NASA and Boeing managers have again decided to extend the Starliner crew capsule’s stay at the International Space Station, passing up a June 26 re-entry to allow more time for analysis and testing to make sure helium leaks and thruster failures are fully understood, officials said late Friday.
NASA plans to hold a formal re-entry readiness review before setting a new landing target date. Given the on-going analysis, the Starliner’s undocking and return to Earth likely will slip past two already planned space station spacewalks on Monday and July 2.
In the meantime, Starliner commander Barry “Butch” Wilmore and co-pilot Sunita Williams are still cleared to undock and fly home at any time if a station malfunction or other issue crops up that requires a quick departure. As such, officials say they are not stranded in space.
“We are taking our time and following our standard mission management team process,” Steve Stich, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, said in a statement. “We are letting the data drive our decision making relative to managing the small helium system leaks and thruster performance we observed during rendezvous and docking.”
In addition, he said, given the extended duration of the Starliner mission “it is appropriate for us to complete an agency-level review, similar to what was done ahead of the NASA’s SpaceX Demo-2 return after two months on orbit, to document the agency’s formal acceptance on proceeding as planned.”
He was referring to the first flight of astronauts aboard SpaceX’s Crew Dragon ferry ship in 2020. But the Demo-2 mission did not experience problems like the ones noted so far in the Starliner’s first piloted test flight.
The issue for Starliner troubleshooters is that the helium leakage and the thrusters in question are located in the Starliner’s drum-shaped service module, which is attached to the base of the crew capsule. The service module is jettisoned prior to re-entry and burns up in the atmosphere.
Given that engineers will not be able to examine the actual hardware after the fact, NASA and Boeing managers want to give them as much time as possible to review telemetry, to continue testing and to polish contingency scenarios in case additional problems show up after undocking.
They also want to learn as much as possible about what might be needed to prevent similar problems in downstream flights. NASA managers were hoping to certify the Starliner for operational crew rotation flights to the ISS starting early next year, but it’s not yet clear if that’s remains a realistic goal......
NASA again delays Starliner undocking, return to Earth
NASA and Boeing managers have again decided to extend the Starliner crew capsule’s stay at the International Space Station, passing up a June 26 re-entry to allow more time for analysis and testing to make sure helium leaks and thruster failures are fully understood, officials said late Friday.
NASA plans to hold a formal re-entry readiness review before setting a new landing target date. Given the on-going analysis, the Starliner’s undocking and return to Earth likely will slip past two already planned space station spacewalks on Monday and July 2.
In the meantime, Starliner commander Barry “Butch” Wilmore and co-pilot Sunita Williams are still cleared to undock and fly home at any time if a station malfunction or other issue crops up that requires a quick departure. As such, officials say they are not stranded in space.
“We are taking our time and following our standard mission management team process,” Steve Stich, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, said in a statement. “We are letting the data drive our decision making relative to managing the small helium system leaks and thruster performance we observed during rendezvous and docking.”
In addition, he said, given the extended duration of the Starliner mission “it is appropriate for us to complete an agency-level review, similar to what was done ahead of the NASA’s SpaceX Demo-2 return after two months on orbit, to document the agency’s formal acceptance on proceeding as planned.”
He was referring to the first flight of astronauts aboard SpaceX’s Crew Dragon ferry ship in 2020. But the Demo-2 mission did not experience problems like the ones noted so far in the Starliner’s first piloted test flight.
The issue for Starliner troubleshooters is that the helium leakage and the thrusters in question are located in the Starliner’s drum-shaped service module, which is attached to the base of the crew capsule. The service module is jettisoned prior to re-entry and burns up in the atmosphere.
Given that engineers will not be able to examine the actual hardware after the fact, NASA and Boeing managers want to give them as much time as possible to review telemetry, to continue testing and to polish contingency scenarios in case additional problems show up after undocking.
They also want to learn as much as possible about what might be needed to prevent similar problems in downstream flights. NASA managers were hoping to certify the Starliner for operational crew rotation flights to the ISS starting early next year, but it’s not yet clear if that’s remains a realistic goal......
Joined: Feb 2015
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 1,765
Likes: 359
From: Cincinnati, Ohio
The continued postponement of Starliner's re-entry date concerns me. If helium leaks represented a threat to safe flight, the craft would have been brought home soonest to limit pressure loss. Malfunctioning and non-functioning thrusters are a matter of grave importance. Correct flight attitudes during re-entry are critical; axis excursions might lead to loss of crew. Perhaps there is another glitch of which we are unaware. Do Boeing and NASA know something we don't? Fingers crossed for Butch and Suni.
- Ed
- Ed
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
The continued postponement of Starliner's re-entry date concerns me. If helium leaks represented a threat to safe flight, the craft would have been brought home soonest to limit pressure loss. Malfunctioning and non-functioning thrusters are a matter of grave importance. Correct flight attitudes during re-entry are critical; axis excursions might lead to loss of crew. Perhaps there is another glitch of which we are unaware. Do Boeing and NASA know something we don't? Fingers crossed for Butch and Suni.
- Ed
- Ed
Joined: Jul 2013
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 5,679
Likes: 3,341
From: Everett, WA
Which is part of the reason why they are delaying the return - the Service Module is destroyed during re-entry, so they can't examine the faulty thrusters. So they are doing various testing while docked to evaluate what's going wrong in an effort to isolate the root cause.
Joined: Feb 2015
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 1,765
Likes: 359
From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Points well made, wiggy and tdracer, but I continue to worry. If the Starliner has any commonality with its Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo predecessors, thrusters on the capsule itself are utilized throughout the re-entry phase up until drogue deployment. Do we know if the vehicle's thrusters are similar to those on the Service Module? Does it really take three weeks to run diagnostics on the Module's systems? I sense something is afoot of which we are unaware and sincerely hope that I am wrong!
- Ed
- Ed
Joined: Oct 2019
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 1,704
Likes: 1,085
From: USA
The starliner capsule reentry control thrusters are supposed to be traditional hydrazine units - Aerojet Rocketdyne MR-104J
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 3,395
Likes: 327
From: near an aeroplane
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,662
Likes: 7,348
From: Peripatetic
Designed for 7 so the environmental system can cope. Don’t have the SpaceX suits, but they’re a safety measure not a necessity. Plenty of space where the other seats were so padding could be added in the floor. So it is doable in an emergency.
But so is use of the Starliner itself. The delay is risk mitigation, not that there is a known problem which would endanger re-entry.
If there are doubts the safest option would be for them to remain aboard till the next Dragon crew rotation flight in August. Planned for 4 crew rotation but they could launch with just 2 plus extra suits and recover them with two of the planned returnees, extending the tours of the other 2.
That would reduce the total crew to the previous planned complement.
Starliner could be released before the arrival to do another automated test re-entry, freeing the docking bay.
But so is use of the Starliner itself. The delay is risk mitigation, not that there is a known problem which would endanger re-entry.
If there are doubts the safest option would be for them to remain aboard till the next Dragon crew rotation flight in August. Planned for 4 crew rotation but they could launch with just 2 plus extra suits and recover them with two of the planned returnees, extending the tours of the other 2.
That would reduce the total crew to the previous planned complement.
Starliner could be released before the arrival to do another automated test re-entry, freeing the docking bay.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 184
Likes: 38
From: Eastern Cape, South Africa
If the Starliner crew have to be recovered on a Dragon, and the Starliner re -enter unmanned, I fear that will be the end of the whole Starliner program...I think that I read that Boeing are never going to recoup the money that they have spent on the program, and so cut their losses...
Lets see if the July date is kept..
Lets see if the July date is kept..
See and avoid
Joined: Mar 2003
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 757
Likes: 131
From: USA
“The problems we have seen in the last few weeks are not the kind we would have anticipated at this stage of the development programme for Starliner,” he says.“The whole point about this was to test what putting astronauts in the loop of controlling the spacecraft would do in terms of performance. Instead, we seem to be dealing with rather more fundamental issues that really should have been ironed out by now.”
There’s a reason you should do a LOT of testing before launch.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 3,395
Likes: 327
From: near an aeroplane
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ir-confidence/
This morning, NASA astronauts and Boeing Starliner test pilots Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams conducted a live video press conference from the International Space Station (ISS). They acknowledged the challenges the Starliner faced with disabled reaction control system (RCS) jets and degraded thrust from the propulsion engines. With no clear schedule for their return, they expressed confidence in the test process and the engineering prowess of their ground team.
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,662
Likes: 7,348
From: Peripatetic
SpaceX was awarded $267K on July 15 for "Special Study for Emergency Response."
A similar contract was awarded when NASA considered Frank Rubio on Dragon.
During the July 10th press conference, Steve Stich, program manager for NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, mentioned NASA had looked at Dragon contingency per Butch and Suni waiting for Starliner to be cleared for return, so this may be related.
And we have a NASA response for context:
"The study is not related to Starliner. NASA continuously explores a wide range of contingency options with our partners to ensure crew safety aboard the International Space Station.
Over the past couple of years, the agency has worked with its commercial partner SpaceX to provide additional return capability on the Dragon spacecraft in the event of a contingency."
“additional return capability on the Dragon spacecraft in the event of a contingency”. Like for stranded astronauts?
But sure, this emergency 1 month long contract has nothing to do with the currently stranded Starliner 🙄
Is this US Govt BS month or something and I missed the announcement?
A similar contract was awarded when NASA considered Frank Rubio on Dragon.
During the July 10th press conference, Steve Stich, program manager for NASA’s Commercial Crew Program, mentioned NASA had looked at Dragon contingency per Butch and Suni waiting for Starliner to be cleared for return, so this may be related.
And we have a NASA response for context:
"The study is not related to Starliner. NASA continuously explores a wide range of contingency options with our partners to ensure crew safety aboard the International Space Station.
Over the past couple of years, the agency has worked with its commercial partner SpaceX to provide additional return capability on the Dragon spacecraft in the event of a contingency."
“additional return capability on the Dragon spacecraft in the event of a contingency”. Like for stranded astronauts?
But sure, this emergency 1 month long contract has nothing to do with the currently stranded Starliner 🙄
Is this US Govt BS month or something and I missed the announcement?
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,662
Likes: 7,348
From: Peripatetic
Starliner update:
Teams completed ground hot fire testing at White Sands and are working to evaluate the test data and inspect the test engine. The ongoing ground analysis is expected to continue throughout the week.
Steve Stich, manager, NASA’s Commercial Crew Program: "We collected an incredible amount of data on the thruster that could help us better understand what is going on in flight. Next, our team has moved into engine tear downs and inspections which will provide additional insight as we analyze the results and evaluate next steps."
https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcre...inue-analysis/
Teams completed ground hot fire testing at White Sands and are working to evaluate the test data and inspect the test engine. The ongoing ground analysis is expected to continue throughout the week.
Steve Stich, manager, NASA’s Commercial Crew Program: "We collected an incredible amount of data on the thruster that could help us better understand what is going on in flight. Next, our team has moved into engine tear downs and inspections which will provide additional insight as we analyze the results and evaluate next steps."
https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcre...inue-analysis/