UK plan to launch rival to EU sat-nav system.
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vapilot: The UK will remain in ESA but Galileo is an EU programme.
See here for what an Airbus UK boss has to say about it. Brexit to 'force work on Galileo sat-nav system out of UK'
See here for what an Airbus UK boss has to say about it. Brexit to 'force work on Galileo sat-nav system out of UK'
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Thanks Carry. 
I read that very piece just a bit ago, after perusing the news SA provided. The corporate guidance seems to have been baked in by the EU bureaucracy and demands the change - something that no doubt has been known for quite some time.
I read that very piece just a bit ago, after perusing the news SA provided. The corporate guidance seems to have been baked in by the EU bureaucracy and demands the change - something that no doubt has been known for quite some time.
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For such a project you would be paying to use the encrypted service that will give you a position with an accuracy down to 1cm.
That's what it is designed for.
That's what it is designed for.
We can go down to under 1mm and that is in a long length of tunnel, using [email protected] and mirrors where GPS is useless.
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I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about, as my understanding is that this is primarily a system intended to aid construction work.
When our ground workers were laying out the site for our new house a few years ago they used a GPS Total Station. This gave three axis accuracy of better than 20mm (IIRC the accuracy was around 10 to 20mm vertically, around 1mm horizontally). These things seem to be in common use in the UK, as the surveyor who did the initial site topographical survey used an automatic tracking version, so he could walk around and do the whole survey single handedly. IIRC, as well as getting a rough position using the normal GPS signal because the Total Station is positioned on site at a fixed location when measuring, it can use the relative phase of the GPS carrier to get very much higher levels of precision.
When there was an anonymous complaint that we'd built the house too high, I borrowed a Total Station, set it up on the fixed reference nail that was still in the lane and showed the planning enforcement officer directly that the house was actually slightly lower than the max allowed. Not a hard bit of kit to use - it takes longer to level it up than it does for it to acquire an accurate position and then make an accurate 3D measurement.
Not sure why the EU needs it's own system, given that everyone else seems to manage very well using GPS (or, perhaps, GLONASS).
I guess if the US decide to turn off GPS we'd be screwed, but frankly, how likely is that?
When our ground workers were laying out the site for our new house a few years ago they used a GPS Total Station. This gave three axis accuracy of better than 20mm (IIRC the accuracy was around 10 to 20mm vertically, around 1mm horizontally). These things seem to be in common use in the UK, as the surveyor who did the initial site topographical survey used an automatic tracking version, so he could walk around and do the whole survey single handedly. IIRC, as well as getting a rough position using the normal GPS signal because the Total Station is positioned on site at a fixed location when measuring, it can use the relative phase of the GPS carrier to get very much higher levels of precision.
When there was an anonymous complaint that we'd built the house too high, I borrowed a Total Station, set it up on the fixed reference nail that was still in the lane and showed the planning enforcement officer directly that the house was actually slightly lower than the max allowed. Not a hard bit of kit to use - it takes longer to level it up than it does for it to acquire an accurate position and then make an accurate 3D measurement.
Not sure why the EU needs it's own system, given that everyone else seems to manage very well using GPS (or, perhaps, GLONASS).
I guess if the US decide to turn off GPS we'd be screwed, but frankly, how likely is that?
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I guess if the US decide to turn off GPS we'd be screwed, but frankly, how likely is that?
The Americans have form switching off the GPS or scrambling it.
At Zero Hour -1 of the First Gulf War, the British Battle Groups were on the start line in Saudi, ready to cross the berm into Kuwait.
Then all of the GPS signals became scrambled and unusable to everyone except the US Forces.
They 'forgot' to tell the Brits and other Coalition Forces.
Due to the type of terrain and it being dark, navigation was pretty difficult at the best of times and would have meant that the timings for the operation would slip.
Not good for all concerned.
Those were the days when the military weren't as heavily dependant on GPS as they are now...it was still in its infancy.
The Yanks were surprised to see the Brits set off on time in the right direction with accurate fire support, despite protestations at National level to get the GPS signal unscrambled.
How did the Brits achieve all their objectives on time in such a difficult navigation environment?
They grabbed a Naval Officer with a Sextant and stuck him ontop of a 432 to direct the lead elements navigation.
At Zero Hour -1 of the First Gulf War, the British Battle Groups were on the start line in Saudi, ready to cross the berm into Kuwait.
Then all of the GPS signals became scrambled and unusable to everyone except the US Forces.
They 'forgot' to tell the Brits and other Coalition Forces.
Due to the type of terrain and it being dark, navigation was pretty difficult at the best of times and would have meant that the timings for the operation would slip.
Not good for all concerned.
Those were the days when the military weren't as heavily dependant on GPS as they are now...it was still in its infancy.
The Yanks were surprised to see the Brits set off on time in the right direction with accurate fire support, despite protestations at National level to get the GPS signal unscrambled.
How did the Brits achieve all their objectives on time in such a difficult navigation environment?
They grabbed a Naval Officer with a Sextant and stuck him ontop of a 432 to direct the lead elements navigation.
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They grabbed a Naval Officer with a Sextant and stuck him ontop of a 432 to direct the lead elements navigation.
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As for the Americans turning GPS off, ha-ha, good one. They might try, but they'd soon discover just how much of the world is now utterly reliant on GPS for accurate timing, because a lot of things would quickly stop working. So many I imagine, that America could rapidly get to 'load the shotgun and prepare the bunker' levels.
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I have no idea how they did it, some said China somehow manipulated the map data companies like google had, but when I was in China a few years ago, using on your phone or imported GPS, google maps would always show your actual location (on a map) hundreds of metres away from where you actually were.
The Chinese GPS's worked perfectly (if you could read them
)
The Chinese GPS's worked perfectly (if you could read them
)
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I have no idea how they did it, some said China somehow manipulated the map data companies like google had, but when I was in China a few years ago, using on your phone or imported GPS, google maps would always show your actual location (on a map) hundreds of metres away from where you actually were.
The Chinese GPS's worked perfectly (if you could read them )
The Chinese GPS's worked perfectly (if you could read them
)Also, someone mentioned a while ago that you could buy cheap, portable, GPS jammers pretty easily, and these were used by car thieves to disable the GPS in any car on-board tracker.
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Looks like there's a way to play the EU-27 at their own game: UK ups the ante on Galileo sat-nav project - BBC News
Sounds a bit like the way the US keeps a pretty tight control on technology. Be interesting to see the reaction.
Sounds a bit like the way the US keeps a pretty tight control on technology. Be interesting to see the reaction.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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While what VP said is perfectly valid and I have read novels where GPS spoofing was used, there is another possible cause - mapping datums. Typically GPS will use WGS 84.
The GPS shows your WGS position on the built in maps possibly using a different datum.
You find this in UK to with OS mapping based on a different datum.
Historical note:
We once had a target in a particular Middle East country. It was a particular complex in the middle of a city. The posit plotted 16 miles North of the city. No one could tell us which was correct.
The GPS shows your WGS position on the built in maps possibly using a different datum.
You find this in UK to with OS mapping based on a different datum.
Historical note:
We once had a target in a particular Middle East country. It was a particular complex in the middle of a city. The posit plotted 16 miles North of the city. No one could tell us which was correct.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 14th May 2018 at 20:38.
Converting between WGS84 and OSGB36 is trivial. If your GPS or satnav doesn't support that, throw it away and buy one that does.
Ordnance Survey have an on-line coordinate converter
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps...mation/formats
and they provide software to download
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/bus...d-inquest.html
Professional GIS software like MapInfo or ArcGIS will convert map projections and coordinate systems for anywhere in the world
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps...mation/formats
and they provide software to download
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/bus...d-inquest.html
Professional GIS software like MapInfo or ArcGIS will convert map projections and coordinate systems for anywhere in the world
VP959,
Not sure that threat will have the desired effect as the vast majority of the companies written to will be EU or US owned and would just transfer the work to their European or US factories and close down the UK operation, as they are doing with the Galileo control hub in Portsmouth that is moving to Spain. All those brave Brexiteers really do need to recognise what a globally integrated economy we are and how badly Brexit is going to damage it.
Not sure that threat will have the desired effect as the vast majority of the companies written to will be EU or US owned and would just transfer the work to their European or US factories and close down the UK operation, as they are doing with the Galileo control hub in Portsmouth that is moving to Spain. All those brave Brexiteers really do need to recognise what a globally integrated economy we are and how badly Brexit is going to damage it.
Britain's space agency has written to 13 firms to remind them that they need security authorisation to engage in any future contracts on the sat-nav system.
It is being interpreted as a threat to block UK tech developed for Galileo from being transferred into the EU-27.
It is being interpreted as a threat to block UK tech developed for Galileo from being transferred into the EU-27.
Galileo is almost complete. There is probably little more for UK companies to add that isn't already documented.
We've already lost the secondary control centre.
If UK government blocks UK companies from doing more work for Galileo, who is that going to hurt?
Psychophysiological entity
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I'm surprised there isn't a major investment in Inertial Navigation. I'd have thought the technology had advanced hugely since the kit fitted in the 727 etc.
London underground, CERN, submar . . . oh, wait, they know how to navigate. Tonnes of kit strapped to the wall of a Boeing 707 reminds me of flying DC3's with Decca.
London underground, CERN, submar . . . oh, wait, they know how to navigate. Tonnes of kit strapped to the wall of a Boeing 707 reminds me of flying DC3's with Decca.
