UK plan to launch rival to EU sat-nav system.
TBH trying the follow the apparent expertise here and something has got me confused..I know what a maser is (played with those briefly, very many years ago)... is a “mazzer” something else or just another perhaps more modern acronym for the same piece of kit?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rubbish typing to be honest, you are correct its a passive Hydrogen maser they use.
Two passive hydrogen masers with 10 -15 Allan deviation
And two Rubidium atomic clocks at 10 -12 Allan deviation.
They haven't had any problems with the Rubidium clocks, they haven't a clue what went wrong with the masers and they were all made by the same company. But the drop in Allan deviation when the second maser goes means its accuracy drops massively.
Two passive hydrogen masers with 10 -15 Allan deviation
And two Rubidium atomic clocks at 10 -12 Allan deviation.
They haven't had any problems with the Rubidium clocks, they haven't a clue what went wrong with the masers and they were all made by the same company. But the drop in Allan deviation when the second maser goes means its accuracy drops massively.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like I said they don't know what's wrong with the hydrogen masers. They are closely monitoring them and shut them down before they self destruct. Then wait a bit and start them up again. Hardly a secure stable system.
Still doesn't change the fact that most of the satellites which haven't been up that long are now relying on a backup mode to keep running.
It's going to take loads more cash to sort it all out. We shall see what happens I suspect loads of cash to save face will be the order of the day. I suspect they will have to replace all the satellites anyway to lock the UK out of the encrypted signal. It's not as if they can send a bloke with a usb stick to update the security keys.
Still doesn't change the fact that most of the satellites which haven't been up that long are now relying on a backup mode to keep running.
It's going to take loads more cash to sort it all out. We shall see what happens I suspect loads of cash to save face will be the order of the day. I suspect they will have to replace all the satellites anyway to lock the UK out of the encrypted signal. It's not as if they can send a bloke with a usb stick to update the security keys.
Sorry but you are talking nonsense. Wishful thinking perhaps, but nonsense.
The failure mode of the masers has been identified. There is no possibility of the satellites having to be replaced!
The security is not hard wired in the satellites. That would be an elementary mistake. The encoding can be changed at any time by command from ground control, and the UK no longer has its control station.
The failure mode of the masers has been identified. There is no possibility of the satellites having to be replaced!
The security is not hard wired in the satellites. That would be an elementary mistake. The encoding can be changed at any time by command from ground control, and the UK no longer has its control station.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
From what I have been able to find the fault identified concerned the Rubidium clocks, not the hydrogen masers. The fault was, apparently, caused by part of the system testing prior to launch.
Regardless, it would seem they have found a new supplier for both in future satellites. The current supplier being SpectraTime.
https://www.orolia.com/media-center/...-critical.html
Regardless, it would seem they have found a new supplier for both in future satellites. The current supplier being SpectraTime.
https://www.orolia.com/media-center/...-critical.html
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its a hardware fault short circuiting in the Rh clocks which they can't do anything about without visiting the satellites. Its not actually seen as a big problem because those clocks are backup.
The H clocks its something to do with the onboard monitoring and stabilisation system they don't know what it is and the work round is to control them from the ground, if they start stepping out they shut them down and reboot letting the RH clocks take over.
The 6 sats at the beginning don't have any problems the first 3 are now dead and the 4-6 are limited life span plus first gen hardware and systems.
So out of the 22 sats up there we are down to 16. two of which are out of orbit so that's 14..... All of which have the Rh hardware fault and 6 of them are down to 1 H clock. I think there are 2 with nothing failed.
It was meant to cost 3 billion, its now over 7 billion. If they said they would need to replace all 30 sats at 80 million a pop that would be 2.4 billion just for the hardware. last launch cost I saw was 25 million per unit but I don't know if that's a 4 at a time job which they are going for or singularly. So that would be in the region of 3.5 billion more.
even if you presume the 14 ones that are up there just now in the correct orbits will continue to work that's still another 16 satellites they need at 105 million each including launch at 1.7 billion.
I have no doubt politically they will go slow release, keep what's up there working ish and then feed in the "good" news later about the replacement units.
We shall see what happens from the stands.
The H clocks its something to do with the onboard monitoring and stabilisation system they don't know what it is and the work round is to control them from the ground, if they start stepping out they shut them down and reboot letting the RH clocks take over.
The 6 sats at the beginning don't have any problems the first 3 are now dead and the 4-6 are limited life span plus first gen hardware and systems.
So out of the 22 sats up there we are down to 16. two of which are out of orbit so that's 14..... All of which have the Rh hardware fault and 6 of them are down to 1 H clock. I think there are 2 with nothing failed.
It was meant to cost 3 billion, its now over 7 billion. If they said they would need to replace all 30 sats at 80 million a pop that would be 2.4 billion just for the hardware. last launch cost I saw was 25 million per unit but I don't know if that's a 4 at a time job which they are going for or singularly. So that would be in the region of 3.5 billion more.
even if you presume the 14 ones that are up there just now in the correct orbits will continue to work that's still another 16 satellites they need at 105 million each including launch at 1.7 billion.
I have no doubt politically they will go slow release, keep what's up there working ish and then feed in the "good" news later about the replacement units.
We shall see what happens from the stands.
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I have been able to find the fault identified concerned the Rubidium clocks, not the hydrogen masers. The fault was, apparently, caused by part of the system testing prior to launch.
Regardless, it would seem they have found a new supplier for both in future satellites. The current supplier being SpectraTime.
https://www.orolia.com/media-center/...-critical.html
Regardless, it would seem they have found a new supplier for both in future satellites. The current supplier being SpectraTime.
https://www.orolia.com/media-center/...-critical.html
SpectraTime are part of the Orolia group.
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its a hardware fault short circuiting in the Rh clocks which they can't do anything about without visiting the satellites. Its not actually seen as a big problem because those clocks are backup.
The H clocks its something to do with the onboard monitoring and stabilisation system they don't know what it is and the work round is to control them from the ground, if they start stepping out they shut them down and reboot letting the RH clocks take over.
The 6 sats at the beginning don't have any problems the first 3 are now dead and the 4-6 are limited life span plus first gen hardware and systems.
So out of the 22 sats up there we are down to 16. two of which are out of orbit so that's 14..... All of which have the Rh hardware fault and 6 of them are down to 1 H clock. I think there are 2 with nothing failed.
It was meant to cost 3 billion, its now over 7 billion. If they said they would need to replace all 30 sats at 80 million a pop that would be 2.4 billion just for the hardware. last launch cost I saw was 25 million per unit but I don't know if that's a 4 at a time job which they are going for or singularly. So that would be in the region of 3.5 billion more.
even if you presume the 14 ones that are up there just now in the correct orbits will continue to work that's still another 16 satellites they need at 105 million each including launch at 1.7 billion.
I have no doubt politically they will go slow release, keep what's up there working ish and then feed in the "good" news later about the replacement units.
We shall see what happens from the stands.
The H clocks its something to do with the onboard monitoring and stabilisation system they don't know what it is and the work round is to control them from the ground, if they start stepping out they shut them down and reboot letting the RH clocks take over.
The 6 sats at the beginning don't have any problems the first 3 are now dead and the 4-6 are limited life span plus first gen hardware and systems.
So out of the 22 sats up there we are down to 16. two of which are out of orbit so that's 14..... All of which have the Rh hardware fault and 6 of them are down to 1 H clock. I think there are 2 with nothing failed.
It was meant to cost 3 billion, its now over 7 billion. If they said they would need to replace all 30 sats at 80 million a pop that would be 2.4 billion just for the hardware. last launch cost I saw was 25 million per unit but I don't know if that's a 4 at a time job which they are going for or singularly. So that would be in the region of 3.5 billion more.
even if you presume the 14 ones that are up there just now in the correct orbits will continue to work that's still another 16 satellites they need at 105 million each including launch at 1.7 billion.
I have no doubt politically they will go slow release, keep what's up there working ish and then feed in the "good" news later about the replacement units.
We shall see what happens from the stands.
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
- If you're not a petrolhead, then you should be in favour, as the petrolheads are going to pay more taxes.
- If you are a petrolhead, then you should be in favour, as the plebs will be priced off the road, reducing congestion for you.
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not? - well the purpose of road pricing isn't to make my life any better or cheaper, just more expensive. Someone is going to have to pay for all these fancy satellites - so step forward the UK motorist. 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Edit: and don't forget that the only reason they need 'road pricing' is because of the CO2 madness, which means they're going to have to replace fuel tax soon because they're banning fossil fuels.
BTW, we have something like 20x as many road miles per person in this province as the UK does, yet we pay significantly less in taxes on fuel, sales, and income. And no-one's trying to track us everywhere to raise more.
Last edited by MG23; 15th Jun 2018 at 22:26.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Better if you choose to pay, as you'll have nice empty roads to drive along, not cluttered up with the plebs who can't afford to pay, so you won't get held up by congestion.
Cheaper if you choose not to pay, and either travel by some cheaper means or not travel at all.
You choice! - what's not to like? OK, if you choose better it might be more expensive, or if you choose cheaper it might be worse, but you do have the choice.
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LOL - yeah 
I cant think of anything the Government has introduced in the last 20 years that has made my motoring any cheaper or better. If it is not introducing 'improvements' like the M4 bus lane or those damn cycle tracks all over London, it is the way they keep changing the Road Tax system where somehow I always end up paying more.
So road charging is going to make my life better? - pull the other one.
I cant think of anything the Government has introduced in the last 20 years that has made my motoring any cheaper or better. If it is not introducing 'improvements' like the M4 bus lane or those damn cycle tracks all over London, it is the way they keep changing the Road Tax system where somehow I always end up paying more.
So road charging is going to make my life better? - pull the other one.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it doesn't really matter what gives the position data be it this or GPS or any of the other global positioning systems.
I think you just have to accept that at some point they will be charging by the mile/km. When that will happen I have no clue.
For myself I do use public transport if I can but on earlies nothing is running at the time I need to move. And same when I get home from lates unless I am willing to cut into my 12 hour rest period by up to an hour waiting for a bus. If I am more than 40 mins late that's it for the night. UK I suspect its even worse than where I am, at least here they have an airport bus service that the first bus arrives 1 hour before the first morning departure and leaves 40 mins after the last arrival at night.
I have zero clue about early morning London Public transport. Would it be possible to get to work without unreasonable additional time being stolen from your life?
They will at some point try and recover the whole cost of the system to the user other wise its pretty pointless because they will have spent more on it that they will get back in taxes.
In some ways they have leaped frogged by technology as well as there is now several ways of getting similar resolution using conventional GPS. DGPS gets down to 10cm and SBAS gives 1 meter horizontal and 1.5 meters vertical. So it will all come down to cost of the high res signal. Those that need it already have DGPS. They are portable by one person and don't take long to setup, most of the time is waiting for the error to resolve down. But for some waiting half a day until the error resolves down for 10 cm will make the cost worth it.
I think you just have to accept that at some point they will be charging by the mile/km. When that will happen I have no clue.
For myself I do use public transport if I can but on earlies nothing is running at the time I need to move. And same when I get home from lates unless I am willing to cut into my 12 hour rest period by up to an hour waiting for a bus. If I am more than 40 mins late that's it for the night. UK I suspect its even worse than where I am, at least here they have an airport bus service that the first bus arrives 1 hour before the first morning departure and leaves 40 mins after the last arrival at night.
I have zero clue about early morning London Public transport. Would it be possible to get to work without unreasonable additional time being stolen from your life?
They will at some point try and recover the whole cost of the system to the user other wise its pretty pointless because they will have spent more on it that they will get back in taxes.
In some ways they have leaped frogged by technology as well as there is now several ways of getting similar resolution using conventional GPS. DGPS gets down to 10cm and SBAS gives 1 meter horizontal and 1.5 meters vertical. So it will all come down to cost of the high res signal. Those that need it already have DGPS. They are portable by one person and don't take long to setup, most of the time is waiting for the error to resolve down. But for some waiting half a day until the error resolves down for 10 cm will make the cost worth it.
Last edited by tescoapp; 16th Jun 2018 at 04:55.
