I will explain this once more.To find a job in Canada or Australia you would need someone to sponsor you.If not then you need an offer of employment from an organisation that has advertised for the same job that they are offering you, and hasn't found a suitable candidate in its own country.I think its the same in US.

Exactly my point.Africa is unsafe.

Its not about the effort Mr TRE.Its about the cost and the work permit.Why don't you tell them what it costs to live in Europe and pay for conversion.

I don't think Johny boy is accusing you of being a racist.

It is entirely about the effort.

If you need a sponsor (as I agree in such countries you do) then have they tried? Difficult? YES! Chances of success? Minimal at best. Tried? NO! Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Many foreign airlines send their cadets to the YS, Oz or BZ for training. There have been accidents & loss of life. Ate those countries therefore off limits as well?

GA is a training ground, proving ground, school of hard knocks, character builder & character tester. OCTA in Africa or the outback in Australia is of little difference.

Give me OCTA in Africa as opposed to pilots resting in business class as FA's man the controls, rats found on board aircraft, epidemic series of fraudulent licenses & credentials as are the tried & tested ways of airlines in India & the DGCA.

Again no one had ever been great or successful at anything while allowing barriers, no matter how steep, get in their way of them realizing their dreams & aspirations. Every barrier is a chance to get better get stronger & better.

Johnny's assertion of a prejudice against Indians was most certainly directed toward a racist accusation.

It's not about the effort.Everybody (except for a handful) is willing to put effort.Its about the costs involved.Its about ground realities and being practical.

You can put that as your status on your Facebook account and it will be a hit.But the fact is that these kids will never get a visa.Their chances are zero because their experience is zero and their bank balance is zero.Thats reality.They have better chances if they are able to raise the money for a rating on the type they are being offered a job on.

TopTup

Racist ?
You have done it again , you are not racist but an obsessed individual who came to this part of world to get a final payday with an reputation of " I am TRE , its either myway or highway " but got exactly opposite of it. I suppose other than bashing kids and degrading indian pilots you have to improve your reading skills.

So you are FAA/DGCA approved TRE and the only one who has faced problem in this part of world ? Are you aware the problems faced by your likes from other established countries.Its far far worse than what you think is going on in India.

You say you have hours to back up which i don't have and surely i am a kiddie infront of you but what you proclaim as low standards is degrading to whole community of Indian pilots, its more than offending for those who are not first generation pilots.If have traveled far more with my family who have been active flyers & in aviation since last 75 years than what you ever been for work....Yes i know how BA use to work in 70/80's...i know how Brit midlands use to operate...and AI /Emirates/Gulf air....
So don't play hours card while trying to justify your views which are your views not everyone's and have no bearing to point hand reality of particular landmass.

So as per TopTup , an inexperienced pilot can get a job anywhere everywhere he turns his arse either infront of propeller blade or behind jet exhaust and thou shall stand a chance to get a job over local experienced pilots.For once you made me laugh...seriously you are living in one dimensional world of yours.There is a system called VISA & Work to right & Immigration which dictates various levels of experience cadre's.Every country has specific rules concerning other nationalities.
Try Botswana and Namibia on Indian Passport for a change.You will findout how difficult it is to get an extension to simple tourist visa.Sponsored Visa for work is distant reality for bush flying.

I posted this to Capt.Apache.
And you posted this in response of my qoute.
So my claim of your poor understanding of basic english remains marked.You need to improve reading and interpreting skills.It's very basic CRM training Sir TopTup. May i ask how did you passed your refresher course ?:E

You have zero idea how many expats have improved my skills since is started working, you will be even more surprised how many expats got trained by my dad and his dad.Majority of them are big carrier skippers flying birds like 747/777/380 but still remains humble whenever they interact with my family recounting the starting days without showing a hint of arrogance which you for some reason are always keen to highlight in your post's.

Being experienced pilot you have a mindset of an ignorant flyer.Since you have started posting in this very thread, all you have ever done is how kids are wasting money or cribbing or how all this is embedded in our system.
Only thing missing is this tag line " Children of magneta line ".
For once loose your anger against kids and be polite.

I can not but agree with your statements. realistic assessment. I have seen both the sides. Not every money bag gets in to the cockpit. Not that only influence gets the job. Personally I know a lot many guys who are not even middle class category who on their own merit got in to the cockpit. I was amazed at many of these hard working guys' attitude and perseverance. Aberrations, injustice and favourtism do exist and that fact can not be denied.
But to say that every body gets in to cockpit by money and influence is an absurd notion. may be that you forgive that the statements are reflections of frustration. I do feel sad for those without employment after spending the money. Nobody guarantees anything about the job and it is one's decision to spend money on something one had vague ideas of glory and unrealistically visualised bags of money. These guys have to accept the reality, their limitations and get up and face the life. Airliners do not buy aircraft with the sole purpose of providing employment. That is the reality.

The best and the most balanced write up i have read in this forum. Very sane, practical and with a fine attitude towards life. I am sure you will do well and be happy and contented. I will anyday like to have you with me in he cockpit. Happy Landings my friend.

Let me get this straight.

An Indian pilot died in Africa, so therefore, Africa is unsafe.

One of the most ludicrous assertions I have ever read here.

Africa, in case you didnt realise is a continent, made up of many countries. Aviation would not be so safe in some countries, in others it would be.

Your comment is just pathetic.

That's what the link was for:

t.

So off to Africa.....in 2015 ;)

So you were going to fly a jet in Africa??

Look for those countries with strong GA communities and strong safety records, you'll find many young Australians have gone over there to fly.

Actually don't bother, it's easier to look for others to blame and make excuses.

If that is the condition of sked ops that fly hundreds of pax, one can only imagine how wonderful GA must be.

Good for the Aussies then

India Voice - Second Indian student pilot killed in Australia in a month

So Indian pilots die in Australia, you complain you cant work there due to visas.

An Indian pilot dies in Africa, you rule out the continent.

:ok:

Russia is looking for indian pilots...:ok:

Indian. 40. 14,000 hours. The only one disgracing the "Indian pilot community" is noobs like you!

Sarge75, you crack me up!! haha!!

I'm not complaining.It does not matter to me.Im merely stating a fact.

I only quoted facts as stated by IATA.
For the third time now.Read it again :rolleyes:

Thanks for the name calling
 

Thanks for the name calling....... But I like that name "Struggler..."

Yes I was a struggler & Yes, I will always be a struggler in my life, I will continue to learn & continue to improve myself, both as a Pilot & as a human being....

Yes, 2 years ago, I was looking for ideas on how to renew my old, lapsed Indian CPL & was trying to see what was happening in India at that time.

For your information, I did not wait for anyone to hold my finger & help me wlak, I went out there & did what was needed to be done.

I found out that I need to clear all my exams again, so I cleared all the DGCA exams for CPL, Air Reg, NAV, MET & Technical General; all of them in 1 shot; 1st attempt; even after being away from the Indian system for more than 15 years and just by studing on my own & without any coaching at all.

I also cleared ATPL Nav & Radio Aids written & Oral, again in 1 shot & on the 1st attempt, again without any coaching, just by self study..

So I am not just the talk, I also walk the talk.... I know my $$h!$ & I know my stuff.... But do I walk like I have extra wings or stars... NO..

I know what aviation in India is, what this industry is made up of, what the challenges are?? I know all that...

Back in the day, 15 yrs ago, things were much much harder than they are today, Jet airways was the only airline besides AI & IA.....

I could have also just sat in India, curse the govt, curse the industry & vent my frustration at anyone & everyone but rather than doing that, I went out there & made things happen for me.

I also know very well how hard it is for someone whose father is a common man & who spent all his life's savings to make his son a pilot, I know how hard it is to make it happen in this industry, I know all those challenges very well.....

So, to all of you, I have said it earlier also & say it again, the ideas, tips & suggestions that myself, people like TopTup, Capt JNS or anyone else offers, these are NOT for people born with a silver spoon, NOT for people whose Dads have deep pockets & top notch connections, & definitely NOT for people who don't want to work hard to make things happen.....

If you don't like what we say, Pls feel free to ignore our comments, If you don't like to read our posts, pls put us on the ignore list and that way you will not even see our posts..

Our ideas are for the underdogs....

Guys, We have been there, done that, so we speak from experience...

Besides being extremely Lucky, Shining above everyone else is the only way for a common man's son/daughter to make it happen in this industry as a pilot.

I have also learnt over the years, that hard work coupled with a positive & learning attitude and a little bit of good networking, goes a very long way in this profession.

We can only give ideas & hints on what to do & express only so much on these public forums and I am sure there will a few who will pick up on these hints & ideas & will implement them to change their life for better...

PS: I am not calling anyone a dog, If someone doesn't know what an UNDERDOG means, pls use google search.

Pilotbaba

Everyone is struggler initially, be it me or you or anyone else.What people like you forget is that to get a foot in aviation as a pilot you need to burn some cash or wait before getting a leg in irrespective of any country for instructor rating/TR or else with no job surety.He ends up with same problem but with bigger debt this time, a fresh pilot can only work in a new country if he has right to work or has hours.But he can marry a local and wait till he gets a right to work but then what wait for his future with added family member and no money ?
If a pilot gets money from his family then he is sucking his daddy's money , if same pilot's family pays training money then he is wasting daddy's money.But were the heck is way to earn money to repay debts to who ever they are owed and what he usually gets in advice is " Son get a FI rating....wash my arse and paint it white." ...:mad:
Show him a way to earn money for betterment not to put debt again with no repaying options available.

So you went out , how long did it take legally for you to have working rights ?
Green card /5 years...or how many wife's did you added in your struggling list ? Think twice about debt's and time constraints, logically you are wayward with your advice.

So you mean those who clear DGCA written's in their second, third.....attempts are not capable pilots of future or they have garbage brain ?
There are far far many people who cleared DGCA written's in first attempt to land CPL but still struggling to clear a single airline exam for ages , so that means they are not that good enough isn't it.
If clearing exams in first attempt makes you think you know " I am Jack of all " then i would say i passed CPL exams in second attempt but ATPL's in third and guess what i got a GA job in very first chance, am on IPT list of biggest private airline in India and on the verge of giving SIM check for another one.If all fails on me then i get myself a nice shiny TR and get into another airline coz i got hours which sadly CPL holders don't have due to which they are unemployed.
So that makes me " I know what i am talking " isn't it Pilotbaba ?

People like you who say's : " We have seen it , done it " are mere talking cowards trying to put ill advised words of adventure into mouths of poor debt ridden pilots.What you are not telling is actual level of hardship you or likes of you faced with debts on your head.Even now at this time pilots are getting job without any backdoor references....yes there may be some wait or halts but they will eventually get the job.

Your thinking & advice is absurd to its highest level with pints of humour.
Feel free to ignore my post as i believe basic logic of legal working rights & how to reduce debt are beyond your understanding.

@pilotbaba
You hints and ideas are at best vague.

You and your pals would have done just as well to post the lyrics of that Shakira song:

:} :}

Earlier there were suggestions to go to Europe and Australia and America.But it looks to me like the Europeans and Australians and Americans are themselves struggling. :uhoh:

pilotbaba


wow Pilotbaba wow..such a great achievement. isn't it ??? I have fully apprehended the type of mentality you possess. you are boasting of clearing your papers in first attempt and then you call all the people here KIDS... 1st shot 1st attempt .. you know who goes around and boast such things? at least not a man of your age. your so called kids are doing much better in that department. pathetic show...no doubt you struggled whole your life washing planes,cleaning rudders,acting safety pilot, changing countries ,changing jobs, hanging around flight clubs for NETWORKING and finally when you have reached no where,venting out your frustration at youngsters who are doing much better than you at the same age. going by your life story what I can make out is you were a confused mind, and now you are making others confused. when you struggled then why the hell are you not letting others to fight through, let them, do not bring your senseless advice in between..no one is interested.

Yes I can Mr baba. flight training is an expensive business. where will i get all that money from? do you want me to rob a bank? or do you want me to beg,borrow, steal or reproduce the required finances??..tell me. At the right age of making a career in aviation as a pilot where can a person get all that money from? we live in a culture where our family support us financially, emotionally, socially whatever it is. financially everyone gets supported by his dad or family in a way or other to make his career.be it any field, education has become an expensive business/,aviation is not an exception. how the hell will one get 40 lakhs for his CPL plus the TR? so the effect of daddy's money is justified.

Blame the airlines. they are the one hiring directly for Airbus, Boeing, ATR, dash etc. majority of all the type rated openings are either for Airbus 320 or for the Boeing 737. we do not make choices Mr baba, we have been given opportunity directly on the jets. don't be jealous of the opportunities which are right in front of us.
what do you want from us? stop working for the recruitment drive and get off to a distant country and bestow thousand dollars on the flight schools just to get that CFI rating which will do no good. have you forgotten that CFI training will cost another thousand dollars?? where is your daddy's money effect now? please be sensible. Your suggestions are moronic and do not make sense..at least not for me.

@ JB, Capt. Apache, and Gambol. I don't think Pilotbaba is trying to boast about his achievements, but merely trying to imply that putting in the work has its results. I know that not everyone uses 'daddy's money' to buy their way in to the right seat of a jet, but not everyone wants it bad enough to get there the hard way if need be.
I've been reading this thread for a while and agree with points on oth sides of the fence. It is definitely hard to get GA work in India, but it's ot totally non-existent! Africa would be a great place to fly, but from what I gather from posts on pprune it can be difficult to get the necessary work visa with an Indian passport. And for everyone out there telling Indian pilots to go work in PNG, or at Susi Air, and get some amazing flying under their belt, I know that they won't hire Indians, and prefer pilots from Oz, NZ, and South Pacific. It's just the way it is. The Indian passport can be a bit of a hinderence at times.
Oh, and going back to that 'daddy's money' nonsense. You might use the money provided to you by your family to go to flying school, or your own hard earned money. In the first case it's pretty much the same as your parents paying for you to go off to university. I don't see anyone sh!!!!ng on that now!! If you fall in the second category, good for you. However, when kids fresh out of flying school with 200 odd hours think it's their birthright to sit in the right seat of a 737 or 320, and use huge amounts of money to get there it's just wrong. I'm talking about when there is no proper screening process in place, and anyone with enough money can get in, regardless of competency. You really have no clue who's flying that aircraft.
In India it is common for the airlines to make new pilots pay for their type rating, or have the cost of the type rating deducted from the pilots monthly salary. Sometimes you pay a portion of the cost, and are bonded for a certain period, upon completion of which you can leave the airline without having to pay the remaining amount. It simply is this way because the airlines wanted to keep people from getting a free type rating, a few hours, and then leaving. The fact theat a lot of people are willing to buy their own type rating doesn't help!
And as for washing planes, refuelling them, and that sort of stuff...it's not really a job that's available to the student pilot in India. Even if you have a CPL and are just doing it to be around aircraft and hope to get some flying...not gonna happen. It works abroad, and I've done it myself!!! Whoever commented above about Indians being spoilt,and having servants makes them think they're too good for such work is wrong. I'm Indian, I've grown up with servants(not slaves) and I'm not spoiled, I've done the refuelling, washing, parking, and maintenance of aircraft. That's just life in India. I don't see expats complaining about having a cook, a maid, a driver, and watchman. But it wouldn't be fair for me to generalise.
What I'm trying to say is that India is unique in its ways. Live here long enough and you'll understand. It's frustrating at times, but that's no excuse to go at each other over here. If someone's got some good advice take it, if not don't! And another thing. I see some guys here getting offended by certain posts aimed at them. Take the time to read it again and you may find there's nothing offensive in there. After all English is spoken differently in various countries and you and you might just be misunderstanding what's being said.
I think that's pretty much it. Don't normally type this much! Good luck to all trying to land that first job, and safe flying all!

Speedy

Gents,

Most of the jobless lot in India are only 10+2, ie., high school passouts. What knowledge and maturity do you expect these guys to have? Obviously, they live in their own virtual worlds where they consider that it is their destiny to have their first job as a tubeliner f/o. You can't really expect any hint of professionalism from these wannabe jocks. They hardly know anything about life. Their line of thought is very narrow.

If you have been to uni, then you have obviously experienced first year dorms, resisting temptations, coping with unimaginably large syllabi, dealing with different kinds of people, working around tight situations and so much more...All this valuable experience makes a huge difference in how you get around business in India.

Unfortunately, there is very little honest recruitment in India. Your Dad's money and influence play a key role in securing you that flying job. At the least, you are going to need some contact in the industry to see to it that your CV is picked up from the 100s that usually end up in the trash can. Getting into flying in India, without someone on the inside, is a very foolish move.

There is no laziness as such among jobless Indian pilots but rather that they don't know much. They are not really street smart. It also makes a difference to which uni you go to. These days, there are many random engg. college who will gladly take any 60%+ guy. These are low standard colleges and obviously their graduates are also not that great.

If you are a honest guy with a not-so-rich Dad, then your only hope is to study hard. Remember what Amitabh Bachhan said in KBC: "Sirf gyaan hi aapko apna haq dilata hai" Realizing this and seeing the state of the jobless lot, a senior pilot I know decided to study hard. He was a 92 percenter, and had got into one of the top NITs (earlier known as RECs) which was the 8th/9th best engg. college in India. Obviously, he learned a lot during his 4 year stay and also became accustomed to maintaining and adhering to high standards. Recruited off the campus, his first year paycheck alone allowed for a MECPL+TR. I am serious!

It also makes a difference to work after graduation. Because you also gain a lot of valuable experience in the office environment. Learning to deal with high ranking officials, understanding office politics, etc. Two years later, this person funded his CPL on his own and went on to pursue a TR. By that time, he had strategically built contacts and as expected, got himself into the 737 RHS. Obviously, the 1.5 lakhs/month paycheque was peanuts compared to his previous pay but it was worth the effort because he was doing what he wanted to and he worked hard for it and done it on his own. There is no greater satisfaction than this form of achievement.

So in short, if you are a normal guy then you've got to know someone on the inside. Or you've got be very very lucky. But at the end of the day, it's all about hard work for us normal people.

EDIT: I should also add that being more educated raises your standard in other's minds and increases the chances of your CV being picked up. Sure skill does matter but that test comes after the clearing the first impression test. 10+2 spoilt kid funded by rich dad or humble B.Tech. Aero Engg. with ratings funded by own hard earned money??? Who will you pick, if you are the CP?

Depends who the CP is.Personally I'd pick the hotter one of the two :}

It must take helluva matured(read perverted) mind to bully 20 year olds.Sage like knowledge and experience to make frivolous suggestions (to go voyaging like Sindbad), without any idea about ground realities.

So you must go around the whole world,go to uni,do engineering,know about office politics,become street smart and then come to aviation.I must say that you have managed to take this to a different level of stupidity.Congratulations !

@ contractpilot
I am sure there is no relation between a high school passout & another with a degree trying to be a pilot. These minimum education standards are set by the governing bodies almost every country has these as the minimums I really don't know any place having you to have a degree to fly a plane, hell even the AirForce or rather the defense system in general consider these to be the minimum requirements to let the pilots in to defend the country, surely that carries more responsibility so to say. Also if you look at the pilots working with the industry right now majority are 10 + 2 passouts or most have got their degrees later after they started flying. These have gone ahead becoming Captains & Check Pilots and you will agree with me when i say they don't seems to be crashing planes at frequent intervals. The discipline required to fly these commercial airplanes comes on the job just as it does when joining the defense system. Some might not reach absolute standards but that rather depends on an individual basis and has nothing to do with they not having a degree.
Please you talk about in your words "If you have been to uni, then you have obviously experienced first year dorms, resisting temptations, coping with unimaginably large syllabi, dealing with different kinds of people, working around tight situations and so much more...All this valuable experience makes a huge difference in how you get around business in India." You serious mate you have never found any of these when you got around getting your CPL done, or life in general I outside a college degree, wonder really what closed life you have been living yet, please cut the crap.
You say jobless Indian pilots are not street smart get a grip, you are here to fly an commercial airplane you don't need to be the makings of the next President all you need is to follow procedures and put some logic & common sense in it, nothing to do with being street smart.

I don't even want to get in your last 4 para's, that is a complete joke.

WoW !!:ugh:
Earlier it was laziness then came excuse of not leaving home for hardship then came daddy's money funding kids own comforts then came low hours with shiny dreams( nightmares ) now comes less education.
Yes Indian pilots are mostly 10+2 but does that make all of Indian pilots are 10+2 kids ? Haha logic of putting views or dare i say forcing one's own views on others by using lame and duck fart reasons can only showcase what sort of discomfort older generations are feeling seeing easy going kids.

I wouldn't say about other kids on this thread but would rather say about me on this aspect in the pretext of education.
I am B.Tech from DCE , MS in Aeronautics with all credits on my marks sheet.Worked as an intern in Bristol plant of EADS ( Airbus wing development center) for 6 months..had interest dabbling from Audio HiFi to DIY electronics.I also have my one hand in finance market to fund my fantasies.But i faced same problems like this 10+2 kids.
Now take this , My grand dad had 38K+ hours ranging on ( dakota/dc3/caravelle/707/737/747 ) and my dad veteran of 34K+ hours on all modern jet's with airline ranging from Indian to European still couldn't land me shiny jet seat.Why coz he never wanted me in this line in first place, to beg for something for him was lowering his dignity.He never asked anyone nor did i but it use to feel extremely painful to see people getting jobs with money power with no skills.I did what i could do atmost , wait & study and increase my savings for future....
So with my education certainly i am not less educated than most of you or less skilled technically or mentally.

Plus i got license at a time when recession started but cleared KFA exam in late 2007 and ditched it knowing the cost & terms of taking job there.Cleared Jet in 2008 July to put be on 2 year wait.Took up a job in GA on B200 in 2008 late with company bonding me for 3 years which ruled me out for Jet's 2008 job when they came back to us in start of 2010.Got upgraded in my GA work and gave Indigo's exam but couldn't clear...gave Jet's exam 3 weeks later but failed in interview when asked " what you did when you were not flying " all i said started making speakers for fun.That was it for them....why i failed with all my qualification was simple for me to understand that they didn't even took under consideration in first place.

Hard luck was told to me every time i couldn't find a airline job.With all my contacts and qualification i was placed under same bracket of fresh CPL holder fighting for a job along with them.
I fly with politician's , CEO's of big fat MNC's hell i even flew with expats who got trained by my dad.Every one said we will find a job for you and many did on airlines but in the end it all came with one thing - Money as kickback to land job.How much , To whom or When ? Answer was 20L Rs upwards.....

And i ain't even 20 year old , i am getting paid but its too little to even cover my automobile repair cost.I ain't crying that after studying so much i am getting peanuts in return....coz i know what i was getting into.I have understanding of Airline Biz....everything that goes up comes down and it's down right now for me atleast but i will go up surely when is matter of time but by my own will.So when idiots who have absolutely no understanding of local system/hardship or for that matter basic working rights boils me :mad::mad:

You must know why most expats are fuming coz young inexperienced kids are taking away their option of another livelyhood , deserving local pilots are finding it hard coz money power and too much anti Govt. policies , poorly financed pilots are facing bank's ire to return money.

In the end to land pilot job in India or anywhere comes down to two things - Money power & Contacts !

In both of your posts, Capt Apache & Johnny Boy, I see very little maturity and professionalism. A lot of rambling, rather. Both of you, as I decipher it, want to go the right way which is a good thing to do. But to go the right way, maturity and professionalism are two fundamental prerequisites among many others. Unfortunately, due to your teen-like rebellious nature, snobbish attitude and lack of meaningful experience, these qualities are clearly absent in both of you. This in itself hampers your chances of becoming a F/O. Why? Because you say that you want to go the right way. So, obviously, we expect you to have some standard, to have some class. A certain charm is what we're looking for. This kind of outlook will sadly get you sent back from an interview. I cannot see any hint of both of you having that standard, class or charm from your posts.

The honest path is narrow. Chances of success along this path are slim. Add the slightest uncalled drawbacks and then chances of success tend to zero (remember calculus). If you are going the right way, you have got to be the best. I am not a fool to waste my time anymore. I have clearly stated what I wanted to get across. Whether you choose to accept it or not is purely up to you.

I have worked hard and made a comfortable niche for myself close to but thankfully out of this mess of getting a flying job. I will sit back and watch the ill-fated ones go on their road to perdition.

Clearly, you don't understand what I mean. I am not bringing in the aspect of having a degree with respect to any form of minimum qualification requirements. This thread has nothing to with the Air Force for which the recruitment is so stringent that only the best and truly gifted ones are selected. By default, they get the cream of the lot. I have not done a CPL but am very much involved with recruitment in airlines.

This discipline you speak about should come on the job but rather before it. If they have it beforehand, their recruitment is quite 'honest'. If they are ever recruited that is. All this is with reference to India. And trust me as a brother, you have no idea what life in university, particularly in India, is like. It's like no other. That's for sure.

In India, if you're going the honest route, we do want to see very high standards being adhered to.

That's your class and maturity to club each n every tom dick & harry in one stroke.That is professionalism for you to degrade and have pre conceived perception of each one of younger generation upcoming pilots are not matured , lacking professionalism and skill's.
So you decode all traits by reading posts and not even reading it properly.

First it was not so matured educated pilots reason of cribbing for you now its non-professional attitude.The more reasoning and logic you quote, the more amusing its becoming.


Then again it's your class to see others fail.:D

God save those airlines for which you are a recruiter.Did you by any chance worked as or in KFA ?:E:E
I am already an FO and would pray that i don't get bench to test me which includes people like you that lack class in first place to point fingers at others.
Hell you are not even a student pilot , Contractpilot with 69 at back ....any fetish for 69 ?:}:}

Very good JB !

@contractclerk
Are you on the same professional team that charges hapless unemployed youth 20 grand to appear for a written paper ? Just curious

Luck?
 

I see a lot being talked about 'Luck' and 'Contacts' in the posts. It literally kills me when I see that anyone getting anything positive is either deemed as 'Luck' or 'Contacts'.:rolleyes:

I've not seen much, But I've certainly seen enough to tell you with surety, that in Aviation, like in any other field, You make your own ‘Luck’. Some of us do it by educating ourselves and gaining all the above mentioned experiences while others try and make opportunity for themselves to achieve something on a long term.

I have been witness to opportunities crop up for Pilots, not necessarily for Flying, but for ATC, Operations, Flight Planning, Dispatch and various other skills that we have been trained for.:cool:

I can tell with first-hand experience that by working and being in close vicinity to the field, I managed to keep my skills sharp and also grab the first opportunity that arose. I am today flying for my company where I started as a dispatcher and so is a good friend of mine who chose to do the same (in another company). I have tried in vain to put more people in similar positions, but poor pay and hectic working conditions have made them not consider.:ugh:

My advice (if I may) would be to not worry about pay or the work schedule, but look at a long term prospect of this. And in the mean time if an airline job creeps up, At-least you have something productive to talk about when someone asks "What have you been doing?":ok:

Billboard quoted that in post no 55.They are already doing what they can to help themselves.But when they feel frustrated and look for support on sites like these, all they get is insults.

I respect all pilots regardless of their experience.Hats off to all of you for taking a plunge in this career.

But if you haven't taken the plunge already.....Dont do it. :}

How much of this kid's CV is utter BS? So at you're not even 20 years of age yet, so of course you're 19 years old. Apart from the tertiary credentials you claim to have (ie must of started college/university at 14 years of age?) you've worked at Bristol as an intern?

At age 19 you were born in 1994. Say for argument's sake you turn 20 this year, so lets play your game and say you were born in 1993. In 2008 you tell us you took up a job in GA on a KingAir which makes you 15 years of age, at best.

Wow Johnny-Boy-Liar! Where oh where did you find the time to fly your B200 at age 15, study for your "B.Tech from DCE , MS in Aeronautics with all credits" and go to Bristol as an intern? Needless to say we can assume anything out of this kids mouth is just more BS.

Goes to show that the interviewers saw straight through you. A successful applicant would of said that he/she has done nothing but do whatever it took, wherever it took, demonstrated relentless study and preparation to better his/her chances at a successful career, and took up jobs that could steer him/her closer to that ambition..... but you "made speakers for fun".

(How did you find the time between your study, internship at Bristol, GA job, study for your interviews AND you managed to make speakers "for fun"? For the record I'll admit to name calling: YOU'RE AN IDIOT. Liar? I'll leave that to basic reasoning....!!! In the mean time, google "sciolists". Don't worry, Apache here believes every word you say and is your ally. The stupid leading the blind perhaps?

As said, you make your own luck. But you kids go on and make speakers for fun, or blame every one and every thing for your predicament.

As I said before, this is Darwinism at its finest.

TopTup,
I think he may have meant his is much older than 20 but is willing to work for peanuts. That is what I got out of it although I may be wrong.

You (Top Tup) and some of the other posters all made great points. But you're just wasting your breath. You will be chided, accused of not being able to relate to how hard it was to get the first airline gig etc, etc, etc.

To the original poster that wants the government to do something. That is pretty funny. Do you know how many CPL holders there are in the busiest commercial and ga market in the world (USA) that do not have jobs. I'm betting to say that it is close to the numbers in India. It's for a multitude of reasons they were not able to get a job. So, India isn't the only country with a bunch of unemployed pilots. And finally, why is aviation so different? Why shouldn't the government help out Art History majors that have spent money on an expensive education but can only find jobs at a Walmart or a call center?

It is not a government issue, but it is a market issue driven by supply and demand. And why people in India undertake CPL training knowing what the dire straits of newly minted CPL's is, is beyond me.

Let's be honest, they are guilty of not doing any research; so really, don't blame the airlines, don't blame the schools, and don't blame the government. A quick internet search would have sufficed; but most think they know more than us, the guys that went through it. All we are saying is that it is a tough business, lots of sweat and tears will be shed, and even bigger sacrifices need to be made. So when you come back here and complain, about how you can't find a job with 250 hours (we know this), but you have to understand that your 250 hour CPL is really just a glorified PPL and if you want to make your resume stick out, you need more time. How you do that, you have to figure it out. We have all collectively given you advice, now it is up to you to figure out what to do. Good luck.

My suspicion about you were indeed true.
You have serious reading skills problems.Interpreting simple english lines is beyond your scope and horizon no wonder why you were kicked out of AI before being humiliated by management and dec crew.
Every post of yours is filled with babbling donkey ****'s.Every single word of your is BS to many of us...don't be fooled by your experience or age, you are classified idiot who can't even understand plain jane english lines.


Picking up lines out of context and then twisting it in your own is only way you can defend or debate.
Heard something called hobby ? Guess you are un imaginative in your life so you have no understanding of any hobby other having incompetent english reading skills.

A person calling himself experienced enough who have tasted air of different continents and unable to decode " i ain't 20 year old " is totally incompetent person with IQ lower than people suffering from cerebral palsy.
You are making mockery out of yourself TOPTUP over here....gather your thoughts and think twice before even trying to post a single line.Accept it you are an incompetent person with serious interpersonal behaviour problems.
A person of your experience should have easily understood i am not an teenager nor an 20 something but the way TOPTUP reads or see's simple basic conversation is only known to him.
A person can't be Commercial Pilot till he is 18 years old...i bet you know regulations...but you forgot it so you don't know your regulations.LMAO:}

Capt.Apache is competent person fighting for his rightful place in his professional life and leading content life, views expressed by him are not entirely correct but he is defending them being honest and humble unlike you.

You are an old timer who got screwed by un deserving indian pilots from worst airliner in world ( AI )...Growup old hog, drinking too much is not wise and when its people like you with serious attitude & behaviour problems leads to burnt arse or broken ego.
Applies fully on you.I can smell burnt EGO....can you ?;)

You are not wrong TheBigD , you interpreted my words correctly unlike TopTup who is suffering from degrading english skills.

TheBigD

Another zero detail speculative post. :yuk:

Earlier they said the world is full of opportunities, which noobs had failed to explore.Now suddenly the whole world has become unemployed. :}

Apache,
Speculative? Not really. Look at the number of airline pilots in the US and the number of CPL's issued. You will see there are more CPL's out there than jobs. Since you obviously have plenty of time on your hands, feel free to do the research.

What I am telling you and what you do not grasp is that this is a tough profession. There will always be more pilots than jobs out there. Always has, always will be. Supply and demand. Market forces. That simple. Now don't blame us, the schools, or the airlines. Were students mislead; sure. But in this day and age, with abundant information available at your fingertips there is no excuse. But what is done is done.

What we are telling you is there are opportunities that MAY or MAY not get you into an airline gig. I really have no dog in this fight. Do whatever you think is right; but sitting around and arguing with us is not going to get you any closer to where you need to be. Good luck; stop whining; man up and do what you think is best for you.

There was a time when no kid with 200 hours would think of getting an airline job. He would flight instruct, join the military, go to college, build hours....but not now..

Since the whole industry, including the US picks their pilots off the bottom of the resume pile...by gosh, now you have legions of indignant 1000 hour pilots that feel entitled to a job, flying a jumbo jet with 300 people in back. Yes sir. They are qualified and they deserve a job.

Still can't see the failure of my interpretation of your words. I will plead guilty to a failure to comprehend your incessant pathetic grammar, spelling and punctuation which may have attributed to the misunderstanding. In aviation we have standard RT. Potentially another reason you're unable to get a job if this is your comprehension and literary level that would be discovered with minimal testing.

If I am wrong in assuming you are 19 years of age then I apologize for insulting mature 19 year olds.

Like the fool you are you answered a rudimentary question designed to test your true vocation to aviation: What have you done while being unemployed / seeking employment as a professional airman? You answered "I made speakers for fun". You're not an idiot for being honest. You're an idiot for being so deluded in your arrogant belief that you're owed a job and its everyone's fault but your own. You're an idiot for arguing that it's OK to allow a hobby to take precedence over making ever minute of every our of every day work and count toward fulfilling a wet dream you had once about becoming a pilot.

Yes, most of us have hobbies. I am yet to see but a single person successful at anything allow a hobby to interfere with their professional ambition or integrity. (Most pilots will list aviation as their hobby. They/we love it. We live for it. So much so that we try to leave the profession in a better place than when we joined. Quite often that means speaking out against insults to the profession like you and others.)

Don't even attempt to lecture me on ICAO standards and rules. What I find necessary and is a part of my job is to be well versed in ICAO Docs such as 4444, 8168, 9613, 9905, 9976, and so on.... not to mention PANS OPS 1, 2, 3 & 4, while you of course prefer to make speakers as your aviation preparation & study. My knowledge of them is the precise reason why you and so many like you can only aspire to bring Indian aviation lower should some corrupt and incompetent fool ever offer you a job in an airline let alone a KingAir.

EVERYONE on this forum who has a job in a commercial airline, who have experience in Indian Aviation as well as other countries of the world say the same on this thread. But as BigD and others infer, you and our ilk are nothing but ignorant, immature brats unwilling due pathetic arrogance and sense of being owed a job as opposed to earning a job seek to blame every one and anything.

It appears you've read my previous posts. No kid, I was far from burnt by Indian Aviation. I was so abhorrently disgusted at the putrid state of it and the fact that all too often people like you do get a job and risk the lives of hundreds of people. I walked away rather than be apart of it. I'd mention words like integrity and responsibilities of the profession but I'd hate to interrupt you from making another speaker.....

(Besides, there's a few months of solid study for you to attempt from those ICAO Docs I mentioned. Sorry. I know, I know..... You shouldn't have to. It's the airlines' and government's responsibility and never yours).

You can't intrepret and understand simple english , what a shame a person claiming to be FAA/DGCA 777 examiner can't understand english words.I pity you for ignorance and incompetent attitude.
Your last resort to validate your points is pointing others towards literacy of english grammar.
I would repeat myself again " You can't understand & Interpret English ".:}
Can you correctly understand cockpit display ?:D:D

You have none what so ever.
Only thing that qualifies as hobby to you is posting BS on others and thinking how knowledgeable you are regarding all things in life.You are just an old timer who have grown so frustrated of having boring life that each and every words of your represents depressed & ignorant mind of yours.

You don't know a pint of REGULATION's.Dont even think of starting on this with me.....accept it you are very weak in debating but very good BS'ing skills.

I aspire how not to be like you be it in professional life or private life.Being like you would be torture to my soul in first place.:=
I can never aspire about how knowledgeable you think you are who can't even understand simple english sentence's.

When views's of other people matches yours then its all good and sane for you but opposite of it, then they are merely passerby's with illogical thinking.
TheBigD understood my post and he interpreted it correctly what i meant but you on otherhand are hell bent to twist each words of others to whine about how others are wrong infront of you then say we are accusing you.
You are classified dumb other than being old idiot which is degrading to people with low IQ level.

Whole country and its establishments can't be wrong when one person is critically ill from his thinking abilities.
Its disgusting that Indian DGCA made people like you examiner without even sending you first for full proper medical examination detailing.
Pilot with this attitude in air poses serious risk to his co-workers and flyers and with you onboard i would rather put you on jumpseat with hands tied down coz of a lunatic on board is never allowed.:ok::ok:

Don't worry about my studies, i am far more capable and intellectual than you are now or were anytime in you sorry life of being arrogant old hog.
My qualifications as being pilot or engineer is way over than yours.Basically you are under qualified to lecture me as educationally or logically because of your low IQ level.

I see you as unfit ,arrogant ignorant old man who is on his final payday stage ranting at kids who are doing much better than him what he was doing at their age getting his ego busted after every post he posts on pprune having no shame what so ever for getting flamed by me and others for posting craps.:}:}

@ TheBigD

Those who can't go through the trouble of reading up on previous posts before shooting off their mouths should not post at all.Those who themselves won't bother to do their own research should not expect others to do it.


What brilliant insight ! Please read post no 54.Also read up on the study done by PWC and Indo American Chambers of Commerce. But you probably won't cause you don't have the time.You have just jumped on the bandwagon to give free advice !
Just one more silly assumption you made !

Johnny - I'll leave this thread alone to wallow in the depths of idiocy you advocate.

Your English and grammar still expose you as an illiterate fool while you try to argue that at me.

There is a space after a period at the end of a sentence. The same with commas. English has a capital "E" as it is a proper noun... we could go on through every paragraph but it's there for the world to see.

Perhaps I'm getting on in life, true. I've had many knock backs but offer no excuses. They were challenges to overcome and made me better as a person and pilot. Some see barriers, no matter natural, man made, no matter how high, illegitimate or unfair as a reason to work harder. Others see them as reasons to not try or complain.

I have my credentials and log books. I have them certified by several nation's Aviation Authorities. I and many of us do what you simply are inept, unqualified, immature and too lazy to ever be.

I don't dare challenge you on anything, like I don't challenge a mule to eat manure. It's degrading and void of any sense of accomplishment.

Many in the Indian Aviation community are well aware of who I am. Many I had the privilege to fly with were eager to listen, learn and take on board advice from another with experience: from one just as willing and eager to pass it on. I was tough, no denying it. The pilots evaluated, the travelling public and the profession deserve that respect. But fair and honest - a trait unwelcome at the DGCA let alone AI. Those who passed deserved to pass and likewise those who failed.

Your interview experience and airline career to date deems you as a failure.

Yet you can only offer excuses and blame to every one and every thing - never your own ineptitude.

You may not ever wish me at the controls of an aircraft, that's your call. Countless simulator proficiency checks, tens of thousands of hours experience, tertiary qualifications in aviation and all endorsed by said several nation's Aviation Regulatory Authorities deem me acceptable as a senior Examiner of Airmen. So forgive me if I don't take your illiterate ramblings as a "speaker maker" as anything but the eaten manure.

You say your father and grandfather were well respected in their aviation career. I'm sure they were and have no reason to doubt you. By all accounts it would've been an honour to share a cockpit with such men. I also have every reason to believe however that they may see you however as a shameful failure.

Apache,
Stop your whining and man up. You and others complain about the costs of visa's etc etc etc; but those costs are a fraction of the costs for a useless type rating. But many didn't think twice about dropping $10-20K on a useless type rating. That money would have been better spent on going to Papua, Africa, etc and knocking on doors. Maybe getting a CFI certificate and working at a school in the States would be an option(before you say it can't be done, I know of two Indian nationals that work as Instructors at a school where I occassionaly rent planes). These kids WILL be working as airline pilots in India some day; you will still be arguing on PPRUNE about how it can't be done. And you know why people like those guys and why they will succeed? They have GREAT attitudes; which is something mommy and daddy's money can't buy.

Face time will get you much further than sending out resumes and arguing about the pedantics of certain posts from certain posters on pprune. Will it cost money for securing visa's, tickets? Yes. Is it an uphill battle? Yes. Has it always been an uphill battle? Yes. Is it doable? Yes. It is up to you to differentiate yourself from the 6000 unemployed wet ticket CPL holders. But based on your attitdue, I see you most likely won't; but will continue to give Top Tup and others thousands of excuses why you can't do something and not one reason why you could. Maybe you should change your screen name to Downer Apache; as that would be more appropriate.
What I am trying to do is to light that fire and encourage you. Prove me wrong. You have obviously spent the time and money and you seem like a bright guy. Now you need to take some drastic steps. Yes, it will cost money to visit certain piston operators or get one's CFI but you can make it happen. The question is how badly do you want it.

In any event, good luck with what you decide. And the replies to Top Tup from you and JB: not cool at all.