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I ve flown in India for nearly 14 years and was in a junior management level within the airline, those of the unemployed CPL holders who came to see me I ve had many chances to talk to them and most of them I met know nothing, no basic understanding of the industry and flight theory as well. All that they ve done is shed out 25 lacs, get the license from somewhere in US, AUstralia etc and pass the DGCA exams with 3 to 4 resits, if they really worked hard and study everyday they would have cleared these exams in first try just like how we did in the past, there were very few failures in the past because we knew there weren't many jobs around and only way to get those jobs is to clear the papers as soon as possible. Most of these kids just come and moan about how bad the Industry is and that they couldn't find a job. At one point I got tired of meeting them, I felt sorry but couldnt help myself because I was hearing the same crap all over again. I am Indian as well but I have to point out that most of the unemployed pilots nowadays around doesnt deserve this job, first they got nothing in the head and they are very lazy and have an attitude where they think airlines will run after them to fly their planes...
PS the government should not even bother about, them because the government never told them to be pilots there are way more serious issues in the country for the govt to care about |
@captjns
Sir, you also hit the nail with your points, just like always.... But again, it's like preaching to the choir..... @Geebz This is a great profession, a good career. But it often takes at least 10+ years to realize that. A lot of so-called paying your dues in the meantime. That's like Christians leaving their fate up to God. I take it up a notch by adding that if you are thirsty, what do you do?? Do you look up to the sky & pray to God that it rains?? Or do you go find water?? But it is useless preaching to these kids who want to have instant success & they would rather sit & wait for years for their instant succes & a shot to reach the 737 or 320 rather than working hard to achieve & realize their dreams.... I have tried to suggest similar things as you have suggested but no one really wants to listen.. I will repeat my advise again & hopefully someone will pick up a que & make the changes for better..... So what qualifies me to give any advise to any of these kids... My first pilot's medical was in 1990 & my DGCA file # is from 1990. Most of these kids were either not born or were still using diapers when I started flying & later became an Instructor in India.... I was born in a middle class family in India & also have been fortunate to live in the land of liberty & oppertunity for almost 14 years & my exposure to the free world has helped me a lot.. I have spent almost 23 spings watching the cycles of this highly volatile avaition industry unfold in India. So I can say I have learnt a thing or 2 about Indian aviation in my life... There are 2 types of people who will achieve success in aviation in India, 1) 1st type with Daddy's endless supply of money & top notch connections; 2) 2nd type will achieve with one's hardwork & dedication... I will not bother about the first type, but if any of you fall in the 2nd catagory, you better listen...... The only way to beat the 1st catagory of candidates is with your hard work, dedication & excellence in the profession. Having an ATPL with 1500 Total Flight hours or even half way through it with ATP ground exams passed is a good target & will help you shine above the rest of the crowd.... I can bet that most of you guys who have got their CPL in 2008, 2009, 2010 or 2011 have not flown since then. Can you expect to fly an ILS to mininums, Can you do a chandelle, Lazy 8 or a power off 180, after not flying for years..??? Is there anyone who says yes?? GET REAL..... I bet most can't even intercept a radial by now. But, I am not here to bash anyone, I am here to suggest as to what to do... What is the solution?? Becoming a flight Instructor is almost always a very good option, even if you DO NOT expect to get a paid job right away, you still have a qualification & it will help you to keep current & proficient in your skills & will definitely open doors later down the road.... Go to USA or Canada, NZ or any country where you trained as a pilot or can get a visa just to become a Flight Instructor.. If you can not get a visa anywhere, just enroll in a Flight Instructor couse in India. This is your passion & profession... You are in love with airplanes, aren't you??? If yes, then the followng advice is for you...... In the US, there is a term called RAMP RAT. Even back in our times in India, we used to do the same thing, just hang out in the flying clubs even if we have nothing to do & just network. Just Be around the planes & aviation..... Just by enrolling in the Flight Instructor course, gives you a reason to hang out in the flying club, where the flying is happening and an oppertunity to network..... Teach students basic ground school, teach them basic Instrument knowledge, Hold classes every day, teach DGCA PPL & CPL exam prep. Teach free, every day & it will keep your knowledge fresh. Help to wash & refuel the plane, push it around in the hot summer days, work as an apprentice in the maintenance dept, clean the spark plugs, change the oil & work on the plane & learn about the plane that you fly....... Display your positive attitude & eventually, You will get noticed & things will start happening. May be, you will be sent as a safety pilot with senior PPL holders. Can't Log it in India but still you are in the air, where you really want to be..... That could lead to a part time instructor position or a full time..... And that is just one of the possibillities........ Get creative & DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO to be around planes & flying & try to build flight time... I can guarantee you that sucess will come one day.... 23 years of life experience tells me, Success will come one day but ONLY to those who work for it... Again, the kids with entitlement mentality will NOT understand this, they belong in these forums, to do the moaning & whining & ... & ... |
Ther are 2 kinds of advisers here:
1) I got it the hard way so everyone else should get it the hard way and whoever is not getting it is a lazy bum and is not working hard. 2) I got it the easy way, so I must be smart and anyone who does not get it the easy way is stupid. Such condescending attitude reeks of vanity and lack of understanding.:yuk: |
wow
boy am I glad I`m retired lol:)
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Ther are 2 kinds of advisers here: Only moaners & whiners should be allowed here... |
Yeah...I know... your Go wash aeroplanes,give free coaching and more money to a club for an instructors course advice....That really helps.
While they are washing aeroplanes, banks will be busy puttting their folks on the street. Or maybe they should follow vserian's advice and realize how unworthy and undeserving they are of being employed. Gimme a break...you call that advice :yuk: |
A 3rd kind:
The kind who whole heatedly believe that opportunity comes from a wallet alone. That cash for credentials should equal 4 bars upon payment and that real knowledge borne from experience and hard work is to be ridiculed as an archaic belief. The type who have more hours on the internet whining like a pitiful spoilt puppy that they are hard done by when they have little to none of the real attributes required for the job they demand as if by birth rite. The type that the second they get their pre-paid license-from-a-cereal-box have an email address as "Captain.......@hotmail/gmail/yahoo.com". No wonder Indian aviation is still the same cesspit so many years after I was able to leave. Just look at this next generation begging, screaming and kicking to drown it further. Maybe one of you should write and perform a rap song and post it on YouTube? |
Originally Posted by TopTup
Maybe one of you should write and perform a rap song and post it on YouTube?
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And occasionally a 4th kind like Aditya who had the professionalism to ask for advice, took the advice, studied countless hours to earn his way into a position that lead to a job and the beginning of a fruitful career. :ok:
When passion meets humility and true determination good things happen. Well done my friend and I trust is all well with you and you're not taking your foot off the accelerator and always moving forward. |
O We all know about your great escape.
These kids are not claiming their right to employment.They are claiming their right to oppurtunity.There is plenty of potential in the GA sector in India but government policies make it unviable for investments.It is the government that is responsible to ensure a climate where oppurtunity thrives.Please read here. http://www.pwc.in/assets/pdfs/indust...ion-070312.pdf Time and again I have seen people put the blame on those who are actually victims. Stop making wild assumptions about the competence of people you don't know. |
The guaranteed route to a jet co-pilot job in this digital credit hungry age
Apended below are the required tools:
Inherit a heirloom orRob a bank (a few lakh dollars might suffice) Buy an MPL with a B737/A320 rating.($80k-100K) Buy 250 -500 line training hours($50K-100k) from scam bag "experience factories" Or particpate in similar financial milking schemes enticed by LCC airlines Be prepared to fly for no salary until after checking out. And...(just in case)..take plenty of vaseline jelly with you after bleaching your Azz or if. Feminine...to posture the goodies you have. Ahha! Then you might just earn your wings flying like a tireless robot (irrespective of fatigue rules..to keep that airline commerciallyu afloat) Take this advise at your own risk..but let it be known it is not what it used to be..becoming an airline pilot. Oh..there is always a less expensive way to embark in Aviation : Airforce or PC flight sim.Any other way is bound to have you lose money,time,and your youth chasing this wretched adulterated profession in these modern times...sadly. I personally know pilots with ATPL and experience in the field without a job for years and having parted with perhaps..a couple of lakh dollars! |
It is an issue about being at the right moment and place.The only way to get a job in Asia (India) as a Copilot is getting a good contact from the airline. It has nothing to do with the right of employment, opportunity or the fact to be the smartest pupil.
India has been making drivers as hotcakes run by busneesmen called Aviation Schools. The businessmen have deceived the families of these boys. India needs not only facilities but also Captains to develop GA. Not more hotcakes ¡¡ |
India has 128 airports of which 15 are international airports;
with 8 custom airports with limited international operations,and 25 are civil enclaves in defense airfields. Instead of 128 airports, the US has 19750 civil and joint use airports,heliports and seaplane bases. 14000 are available for civil private use. Nearly 4000 are paved GA airports open to the public. While scheduled airlines serves less than 500 airports. In the United States GA aircrafts fly almost 24 million hours and carry 166 million passengers annually. Over two third of the hours flown by the GA aircraft are for business purposes and a key point is that GA is the primary training ground for most commercial airline pilots. So GA clearly is a big contributor towards US economy. It supports 1.2 millions jobs and over 115 billion dollars is contributed to US economy each year through this segment alone. And despite of US economy turn down from 2008 till perhaps mid last year, we saw GA manufacturing and delivering 7.9 billion dollars worth of aircraft in 2010. India is the ninth biggest aviation market in the world and in terms of domestic traffic, the fourth largest in the world behind the US, China and Japan and yet India is one of the least penetrated markets in the world even lower than Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Nigeria. [/QUOTE]Now if you pause for a minute and you say we are going to add upon 1000-1100aircraft in next 8 years we are talking 2020 which means; we are talking about a 100 aircraft every year. This means that we are talking about almost 3-4 aircrafts every month; which I can assure you it is not really happening at the moment. [/QUOTE] http://www.acp-india.com/Brochure/Se...l_Aviation.pdf But NEWYEAR is right.There should actually be a shortage of pilots here. |
There have been many news articles which have covered the state of unemployment among the CPL holders in India. I am posting the latest one below along with the web-link.
Many a dream of flying high has crashed - Bangalore - DNA Many a dream of flying high has crashed Friday, Jun 28, 2013, 14:06 IST | Place: Bangalore | Agency: DNA With the aviation industry in a recession, hundreds of young men who spent lakhs of rupees to undergo courses to become commercial pilots are unemployed and broke. A course culminating in a commercial pilot’s licence (CPL) could cost upto Rs 30-40 lakh in flying schools in India and abroad and nearly 7,000 pilots are without jobs, as airlines facing increased fuel costs and fewer customers have shed aircraft and routes, and more importantly staff, including pilots. That has turned the of many aspiring pilots to dust, landing them in a debt trap, with many landed with huge loans from banks. To get a CPL, aspirants have to put in 250 hours of flying and class hours in a process that can stretch to three years, if not more. While the basic training would cost over Rs 20 lakh, conversion training on larger aircraft like Boeing would cost another Rs 10 lakh or more. Interest in flying schools was sparked off by the boom in the aviation industry 2003-onwards, when new airlines like IndiGo, SpiceJet, GoAir, King Fisher, Deccan Airways came up, raising the requirements for pilots. However, in 2007, oil prices went up, and the situation was compounded by recession. Ravi R (Name changed on request) says: “I got trained in India and abroad, spending nearly Rs 50 lakh. But, most airlines want experienced pilots with at least a year’s experience.” Capt Ashok Arya, an ex-pilot who along with young pilots formed the All India Unemployed Pilots’ Association (UPA) told dna: “”About 7,000 pilots who have commercial flying licenses are currently unemployed. Many young pilots hailing from middle class families have taken huge loans for their training and are unable to repay.” Many pilots in the association have taken up other jobs, and some have even started their own businesses, Capt Arya says. He laments that the civil aviation ministry wasn’t doing anything about it. “There are 3,000 vacancies for the posts of Assistant Traffic controllers in the Airport Authority if India. The ministry can try its level best to fill these posts and revive the aviation industry,” he says recalling that during a similar situation between 1975 and 1997, Air India and Indian Airlines accommodated jobless pilots as flight dispatchers and operators. John, a former Kingfisher airlines pilot, said about 300 KFA pilots were unemployed, with 30 of them in Karnataka alone. Although some of them had been absorbed by other airlines, given the situation, it was tough for those coming out of the portals of flying schools, he said. Capt Rajesh Gilda, pilot with Kingfisher airlines since seven years, says: “Any new airline would prefer experienced pilots. One new airline just picked around 60- 80 King Fisher airline pilots. Currently, it is a bad phase for the new comers, and it might take another two years for things to settle down.” Wing Commander (Retd) Amarjeet Singh Dange, the chief flying instructor at the Government Flying Training School (GFTS) in Jakkur, is hopeful that the government’s move in approving FDI in aviation will revive the aviation industry. |
And then there are other news articles on the same topic.
Wannabe pilots now working in call centres - The Hindu Another 350-odd pilots will lose job after Kingfisher Airlines curb - Bangalore - DNA Pilot job dreams crash as aviation suffers - Hindustan Times Trained pilots fail to land a career - Times Of India |
Maybe some hope from my tale.*
Got my license in Aug 1996. First airline gig in Sep 2006.* Between these two dates, held about 16-17 jobs from call centres to phone book deliveries to janitorial services to cabin crew to HR consultant. Oh, and census taker. Lost a lot of weight with that one.* For ten years, didn't really save any money cos all extra cash was spent in paying back my folks, keeping my license current (which as we all know is mighty expensive) and paying for my HR education. Oh, did I mention the over 270 resumes mailed to pretty much every outfit with online presence? Also two road trips across Canada to put a face on the resume.* I acquired my license at the most inopportune time. Why? Cos I wasn't thinking. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have just like many kids now, independently inquired about the state of the industry rather than relying on blind passion and sheer providence as tools for getting that elusive first job.* It is so easy to blame the government (which doesn't give a flying f*%k about you), unscrupulous hustlers posing as flight school owners and the fates. A little critical thinking and analysis of the industry should've deterred anyone from spending a small (for some large) fortune on an endeavour in which the success rate is abysmally low. Accountability, people!!! Cos if you hope to get that job and move on to the left seat you better learn or acquire that trait fast cos when the sh&t hits the fan it's only gonna hit you.* I started ground school in Sep 2006. Even by mid 2007 the easily available jobs were running out. The window of opportunity to get an easy break lasted about 12 to 18 months starting early 2005. A lot of folks got on the pilot bandwagon at the tail end of the hiring bliss.* By 2008, 150 bucks oil pretty much destroyed any chances a newbie had of getting a job. I was still amazed, at that point, at the number of people blindly picking up loans based on articles in newspapers TWO YEARS earlier and venturing off to get their shiny new CPLs. I vividly recall a pretty boy cabin crew coming into the flight deck enquiring about CPL training and options. I gave him the rundown, and mistakenly volunteered the notion that this is not the right time to spend loads of money since it was a tough market out there ( this was first quarter 2010). The retort I got was 'just because you are sitting in the cockpit doesn't mean others can't get in either'. Suffice to say that was the end of our conversation. On last contact he has the company of some 7000 odd folks out there.* Which brings us to today. Yes, we can lament at our state of desperation. Yes, we can endlessly debate the numerous paths to career salvation. I got to where I am a certain way. *I worked with 19 yr old kids who snapped at the hiring binge and were online by late 2007 and are now 23 yr old captains flying 70 ton jets over our heads. There is no set predetermined career path in this industry.* I flew with a lot of expats as a first officer. Never have I seen luck play such an important role in peoples careers. There were guys who were hired in the majors ( I'm talking the States now) at the beginning of the hiring spree and were captains within 5 years of joining dates. There were other folks who were hired at the end of the boom and waited 18-20 years for a command. Then there were those who went through so many furloughs that their careers never really took off until their mid 50s, or at all for that matter. I obviously never met the folks who hung up their pilot caps and ventured onto bigger and better things. Those stories I can only assume were out of the sheer frustration this industry can bring.* The point I'm trying to make..... Well there isn't any. The industry is in the doldrums. The government is doing f*~k all to kick start it. People are willingly walking into flight schools and dropping hard earned/loaned cash on the tables of smiling flying school entrepreneurs. Airlines are and will keep squeezing everything out of its new and potential recruits. Pprune is and will keep hearing sage advice and whiners till kingdom come.* Rise..... Rise and achieve what? We are not in a position to influence national aviation policy. We are not in a position to advise airlines on future growth or recruitment methods and policies. The only thing you can control is yourself. For some, the money and connections will secure that eventual slot. For some sheer dumb luck will be the answer. Some guys and gals are gonna make it through sheer hard work and competence *Others are just not gonna make it even with all these mentioned factors or, more unlikely, without. Sad but true. Prepare for that outcome. I have friends who are ATC officers now. Others have flourishing businesses. Some have moved onto other careers, just like I did before getting back into this circus. Again, there is no set path to take. Each one makes their own decisions, hopefully on informed opinions.* I got lucky, or did I? Waiting 10 years and going through jobs I don't want to wish for anyone. Studying to start a career completely detached from aviation? Check. *The job pretty much fell into my lap in 2006. Or did it? I had the foresight to sacrifice saving for the future and took the gamble on keeping my license current. Not an inexpensive venture. I can only thank my wisdom (which, trust me, I have very little of) that I was ready to take advantage of the opportunity when it came. It worked out for me in the end. You read about this cos I am an active pilot. My friends who left the industry some 10 years ago are not gonna lurk or post in these forums. Flying was dream, a passion and a calling that just didn't materialise. It's a pity cos some of them are mighty good aviators. Those are the untold and unheard stories which we also need to take into account when we make a choice. Nuff said. Gotta go hang out with the kids now.* Good luck to all.* |
Oh no.Its not easy to blame the government.Quite the contrary.Its actually imperative ( love that word) to blame the Government.
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It's always easy to blame someone else. That way you don't have to take responsibility for your actions.
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Very good ! Then stop :mad: blaming kids and take some responsibility to change this pathetic system.(Try importing an aircraft and you will find out)
Once again, Smart people will change this system, not escapists or renegades - or for that matter- their disciples ;) |
av8r76;
You sound like a true aviation professional. Welcome to our ranks. I cleaned restaurant tables, and washed dishes. I pumped gas. I cut and loaded steel and other metals. I worked as an engineer. I was an F-18 pilot. Got hired by a US major. Took a LOA and flew for 2 foreign carriers. Back at my US job. I have had 17 jobs, and 2 businesses. Welcome aboard. If I can be of any assistance, please pmail me. The rest of the wankers who believe they are owed the world...................... |
I am not going to enter this 'Best resume competition'.
It should suffice to say that I believe that everybody is willing to work hard.Everybody is passionate about their career with very few exceptions.You guys are talking like you have patented hardwork and passion.:rolleyes: At the end of the day you can work as hard as you like.Airlines will still charge you a bomb from your written to your rating.And if you can't show them the money, then .....'Good luck Einstein' :uhoh: |
You think India is the only place that make it difficult to import aircraft? The one I fly right now sat in Singapore for 4 weeks because the owner hadn't paid enough bribe to get entry permits for it to go to where it flies now. What on earth does that have to do with P2F? Before you answer I know what your going to say. Probably something about if it was easier to import there would be more planes and more jobs. It isn't going to change anytime soon and I don't think pilots get say in how the aviation sector is run in most countries. Got about 300 million US dollars to throw around? Then I would reckon you might get a few minutes with the minister for something.
Stop posting nonsense |
P2f :confused: Err...Wrong thread bro.
Who uses 300 million dollars for time with minister ....more :confused: It isn't going to change any time soon blah blah blah That's plagiarism.av8r76 wrote that and you copy pasted it. Forget nonsense.You should stop posting altogether. |
Bitch bitch bitch bitch moan moan moan moan moan moan whinge whinge whinge whinge whinge whinge, blame the government, blame the airlines, blame the corruption, blame the P2F, blame the schools marketing, blame the other pilots, moan moan moan moan whinge whinge whinge bitch bitch bitch bitch
You guys would find any reason to make excuses for your unemployment except take a long hard look in the mirror, or get off your 200 hour asses and go out there in the world and find a flying job that is actually available and suitable for people of your very low experience level :rolleyes: |
5-year, 20-plane rule makes no sense: AirAsia group CEO - The Times of India
So while the Indian government offers ready access to the Indian market for foreign start-up airlines, domestic start-ups are held back from accessing foreign markets! Is this not the opposite of what all governments should do i.e. further the interests of their own citizens and industry. No wonder foreign passenger airlines control about 2/3 share of the International passenger market from India. The figure for cargo is more than 80%!! Emirates carries 3 times as many passengers in and out of India as Air India! Heck, SQ carries more passengers in and out of India than Air India! Such a sell out of our interests! Why are our own carriers unable to exploit the International passenger market from India in their favor? If they could, then the career progression of not just CPL holders but of people currently flying medium jets and TPs with Indian carriers would also be taken care of. And off course with people moving up the chain, more CPL holders could be employed. OPERATOR Anybody wants to guess whether the Jet-Etihad deal will lead to which of them dominating the traffic between India and the proposed new hub of Indian aviation at Abu Dhabi?:rolleyes: With the new CEO at Jet being close to some elements at Etihad , what do we expect? Since Etihad will be exploiting the Indian market, will they be hiring a good number of Indian crew? I don't think so. Is it possible that a gentleman bought some time for his airline by using his influence in the MOA to sell national interests(read increase of bilateral rights for Abu Dhabi)? Tony Fernandes of Air Asia has openly named the person who benefits from the 20 aircraft, 5 year rule. This person's airline has failed(along with AI) to counterbalance the domination of foreign airlines in the Indian market(international routes) and now he wants that other Indian carriers(including JVs) which might just be capable of doing that are kept subdued. So one operator gains(do they?) at the expense of the whole Indian aviation sector! Is Etihad paying Jet in exchange for 24% stake or in exchange for someone's influence in MOA? |
Oh these exalted experienced souls who can't stop counting overtime money or thinking about their next progression or the next hooker they can pick up while chanting 'Nothing's going to change' and picking on 20 something kids.
Get off your arse and do something to be a part of the solution for once. And stop assuming that the only ones speaking up are those without a job or experience.Been there...Done that ::rolleyes: |
Apache. No, I am by no means flaunting my resume. Nor am I justifying my place in the flight deck. I am sharing what I went through. Some guys have it easy. Do I hold it against them? No. But I do want them to realise that they are mighty lucky for what they have and VALUE their place in their industry. A lot don't. So a little perspective doesn't hurt.
The impact we as individuals and as a collective have is debatable. Now I will not deter a person or a group giving it their best. But let's not forget where we are. Nowhere have I seen a more opaque bureaucratic machinery than in India. RTI has helped correct that but discussing the impact or lack of it is beyond the scope of this discussion and this forum as a whole. I personally have tried in my previous airline to bring about change. While I won't claim to hold the lone spot of David against Goliath but it is a very daunting challenge to stand up against status quo. My airline started charging a bomb for their entrance exams. I questioned my chief pilot and head of training IN PUBLIC about this. Their simple answer based on cold hard capitalistic facts.. Supply and demand, and we will milk it for all it's worth. How do you respond to that? It is a business, not a charity. Now, they are exploiting aspirants but will they explicitly admit it? Who will? We all can make changes. Incremental, yes. Tangible, highly unlikely. Our sphere of influence is extremely limited. We can push to expand it but even that has a limit. The question we need to ask all unemployed guys and gals is did they do the research before plunging into this field? Enquiring about the next layover or the take home pay is not research. The same archaic and ridiculous rules and limitations certainly existed before their first hour. The rules didnt change overnight So it basically becomes a case of buyer beware. The rules of the game are clear. Did you do your due diligence before stepping in? It is the job of a flight school to oversell it's wares. It is the job of a student to filter out the information to his/her benefit. Again, while the circumstances might align against you, are you going to ask yourself how you maneuvered yourself into that situation? Look at the research folks do before buying a 5 lakh car. Do you you believe they did the same BALANCED unbiased research when they dropped 50 for their training? Again, I didn't and I got burned...... Badly. As many are right now. I want to be a living, breathing example of what not to do and I am screaming it out but you don't seem to listen. Don't agree with me but just listen and try to form an objective opinion. An aspiring pilots career objectives or options are pretty much the last things on the minds of the policy makers when it comes to formulating or implementing the same. There is a LOT of money involved, a lot of power exchange and a lot of conflicting interests which we cannot even begin to fathom. We can try to highlight our issues but to use them as a primary or defining motive for change is asking for too much. Any decisions made concerning aviation will have collateral benefit or damage to pilots' careers. I understand your frustrations. It is basic human nature to lash out. Psycho babble aside these guys need to start generating alternate options cos right now, as I said before, a majority of them are not gonna make it. I really hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is the truth. Not based on personal perceptions but on what I have seen happen with me and people around me.:( Good luck to all. |
I started out no different than you or UMSC.I was fully aware what I was getting into.But I believed the same bull**** that people are putting up here about hardwork.I was soon confronted with the bitter reality that if I did not raise about 300 thousand dollars, I wasn't going to find a job.
Always wanted to fly this cute looking old worn out Piper Apache parked outside my school.But the only time I even got close to a shiny (they seem to like that word) Cessna was when I exhausted a part of my savings trying to keep current. Just because I sit pretty now gives me no license to deride people who have made a mistake.They are all aware that they have made a mistake. You (not you avr876) may not be able to influence government policies, but the least you can do is change your attitude towards those who are less fortunate. |
A perfect miscellanea of thoughts, intellections,views, suggestions, complaints, advice and lashing coming from all categories of individuals making this thread an interesting read and also making it a perfect backdrop for the debate over the unemployment hitting the industry.
Those who have made it and are enwrapped with vanity will always love to ridicule and make a mockery of the freshers and the strugglers, may be that's the best way to bring out their vain, they do it by articulating phrases with words such as "stupid kids", "daddy's money","200 hrs arse" and blah blah. once upon a time you all were under these category and among the unemployed licensee bunch too. I fail to understand such mentality. your wait is struggle but ours are wasting dad's money, moaning, whining blah blah. Adorn yourselves with pride and glory but crush everyone who is trying, struggling,working hard and going through all the hardships to make it there. someone said it rightly,"you people are talking as if you all have patented hard work and passion". constructive advice and suggestion are definitely welcome,but please do not demoralise them. I am amazed to see some of the ineffectual suggestions given by few who were long time strugglers once, suggestions which are goddamn irrelevant in the context of the current stage setting of the indian aviation industry. Nothing entitles anyone to deride or demoralise anyone, everyone is trying just like you and me, let them try . just because you put your struggle down in the words here doesn't mean its only you who had struggled, all of us are struggling too. everyone's life is not that rosy.It's a tough game,and you cannot take that aspect out of the game. |
@gambol
Can you deny the effect of "DADDY'S MONEY" & Influence?? The 200 hr wonder kids is the term rightfuly earned by people who want to fly only the B-737 or A-320 right after CPL. No one is try to mock or make fun of any unemployed struggling pilot. I agree that the situation is very difficult for those who are unemployed, people are frustrated by the ways things have turned out for them & I can understand that frustration..... But let me ask you, do you have a better idea......??? The only thing which senior & experienced people are trying to offer, are some ideas, to think outside the box & some encouragement, to work hard & make things happen.... That is why people come in here & offer their life stories to tell you guys that it was never easy for anyone, everyone went through a lot struggle to make it... The only thing we are suggesting is look at the light at the end of tunnel & learn to find a solution.... The only ones who are resorting to name calling are the few "know it all" types, & who are very vocal about the goverment & policies & all that but they are the ones who will not care one bit once they get a job.... By using rude language & insulting comments for the very people who are trying to help & encourage, will not get you very far in this profession. And quite fankly, it does not matter to anyone, specially to the people who have already made it in the profession. Like capt jns, who is a very senior Capt & has seen enough of the world, av8r also seems to be have made it, I am personally well set in life, so it shoud not matter to us, we don't HAVE to offer any help & advise to anyone, we don't HAVE to take the time to write a respose, we have better things to do in life but we still try to do what we can.... We can share our experience & you can take what you want from it, or not take anything at all.... If you don't like to read what we have to offer, pls feel free to put us on the ignore list & we really don't care... But there will be few who will read our suggestions & try to adapt them in their situations. If I can help to change one life for better, I will consider that my dues have been paid back..... |
Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans.
I guess I am one of the lucky ones. Got a chance to fly an airbus right after my CPL. Now with over 4,000 hours on the bus it's difficult to imagine where life would've taken me. It's great to see your passion for flying but venting might not help here. Take stock of a situation and do as you deem fit... And since i started with an angrezzi quote let me end by saying, You can take a Rathore out of Ranjore, but you can never take the Ranjore out of a Rathore :) PS: For the few who don't speak the language of a billion people, the last quote meant, you can take a dog out of a fight, but you can never take the fight out of a dog PPS: Keep that passion alive, don't give up on this fight. I hope to see your dreams take a flight soon :ok: |
Continue....Schools are waiting daddies´s pockets :=
|
And that's just it: former (Indian) wannabes write here about their first hand experiences from training to landing that first job. Others with first hand experience of Indian aviation also comment. From junior Indian nationals to highly experienced TRE's all say the same....
But it falls on deaf ears for the "passionate" ones who refuse to do what it takes to get a job flying. There are jobs in Europe (east & west), Sth East Asia, China, Africa as well as GA in Australia, Papua New Guinea, Africa and parts of Nth America. But with all the "passion" and "determination" you refuse to get off your behinds. You feel a sense of birth rite to a job in India. You believe your shiny CPL matches the thousands upon thousands of hours that the expat pilots in India offer. And on the topic, a vast majority of those expat pilots got off their ar$es & travelled overseas to find a job that their credentials provided. No jobs in their home country despite their immense experience, so they did what they needed to do. But with < 250 hrs so many of you can't be bothered to do the same. A year in GA would make you so much better ready for any other job but your "passion" and "determination" has very short legs. Too precious to leave home. Too arrogant to even interview for a light single engine piston flying mail or freight to build hours in a log book. And don't go on about money.... There are few if any pilots who didn't work 2nd or 3rd jobs driving taxis, sweeping floors, working in bars, etc to realise their dreams. You simply don't have the balls to back yourselves. So yeah, go on and Rise! Unemployed Pilots of India! Take your shiny CPL to where ever it takes to fly a plane, & not just a pretty jet that your arrogance determines you must by the state of the industry, government or any other blame-able entity. So rise, remove your thumb from its lodging & make it happen instead of finding excuse after excuse of how you've been screwed over. Then look in the mirror & point a finger in that same direction. Then again this is perhaps more Darwinism at work? |
TopTup lives in a world where there is no concept of work visas.Just tell them you are willing to wash aeroplanes and they will stamp your passport....
till Kingdom come. :} |
TopTup,
On this one occasion,I have to agree with Apache.Do you think all the young,great unwashed and unemployed pilots would NOT give anything to go elsewhere and fly?? Jobs in Western Europe? You must be joking, right? Can an Indian CPL holder (assuming he takes the trouble to pass all the requirements for a European license) with no German/Norwegian/French etc skills actually even stand a chance there???Besides, every country will expect some sort of Visa (work or immigrant) for you to even get a chance.Hell,I would love to go work in Brazil where jobs are a plenty but, you know what, I don't speak Portugese.:{ The problem today was created by the airlines themselves.They expanded at a pace that would make anybody blink,let alone an airline business manager.Ran out of crews; pulled pushed, and stepped on everything and everyone within reach just to staff their planes.Expats (such as you) were hired by the hundreds, CPL holders indiscriminately hired as F/Os and quickly upgraded (without checking the bona fides of their qualifications,or their skills) and the word spread.There was gold in the skies of India! Come one,come all! jobs are going a begging! Kids coaxed and cajoled and arm twisted their naiive parents into forking out large sums of money for licenses from here, there and everywhere. Then the bubble burst. The Gold Rush ended and young lives were changed for ever. If I were an airline executive for a day,I would stop buying airplanes willy nilly.The fuel costs alone in India would make this business a doubtful prospect.I would hire exclusively from the Indian Air Force,Navy ,Coast Guard or other Para Military forces.That way I would have a steady supply of trained (at least in the basic art of flying-----which seems to be in short supply these days) pilots readyto go to work and keep the balloon afloat.I would then sit back and watch the airline flourish and not flounder. The blame can be shared all around; airlines ,government, entitled kids with shiny CPLs and of course,the Indian culture and society:rolleyes: Like everything else in this world, there is no one silver bullet to fix this problem and until then, sorry to say, the 7000+ are SOL. Alt3. |
Is that yet another whining excuse Apache? (I don't call you "Captain" because you are not one). Too hard? Can't be bothered even trying? And to think the many hundreds if not thousands of fresh CPL & IR holders managed to make it happen in places like Africa and PNG, build their hours, gain unforgettable and priceless hours to gain experience and credentials.... Yes, Oz and NZ will be much more difficult.
Sweeping floors? Washing aircraft? Maybe even submitting your own flight plan! Refueling your own plane! Yeah, I know.... It's beneath you. You've probably had house servants all your life so the mere thought is below your caste and repulsive in the extreme. Some pilots are willing to do that if it can lead to a job flying to climb the ladder. Many of those "some" are the (real) Captains of widebody jets for airlines such as United, BA, Virgin, Lufthansa, Qantas, Air NZ. Some make it happen, others sit back and whine from the cheapseats that it's someone else's fault. Young Raman here seemed to get a visa to work in Nth America for an opportunity to go for it, and was willing to do what it took - and got a visa obviously! (Ice Pilots NWT) Alouette: Yes, I do 100% know, not just believe, that the great many who whine about it being too difficult and unfair and it's always someone else's fault (blah, blah, blah) do not even try nor perhaps have ever submitted a CV to fly a C210 in a place like Africa. It's A320, 73NG as a minimum. Oh, and it must be in Mother India, and it must be with an autopilot, it must be air conditioned, and close to home.... I didn't speak Indian yet took a job I was offered. Language is just yet another woeful excuse I'm sorry. How many expats speak Pigeon yet seemed to be able to work flying into and out of the villages in PNG? And all the while I thought English was a compulsory ICAO requirement in aviation? So no Alouette, I'm not joking. The airlines created the problem? So what will you say if (when) you get a malfunction on board your aircraft? The mechanics created the problem? The birds? The weather? Throw your hands in the air? Blame them and do nothing about it because it's their fault? Or do whatever it takes to make it happen despite the obstacles? Can an Indian CPL holder (assuming he takes the trouble to pass all the requirements for a European license) with no German/Norwegian/French etc skills actually even stand a chance there??? Icing, high terrain, monsoonal weather, incessant heat, freezing cold, high traffic areas, low traffic areas? All factors present in India where your DGCA CPL comes from. So do why the hell do you need different "skills" to fly elsewhere? Experience - YES! So go out and get it! Use the CPL and IR you have! Alouette, I agree with you that the industry in India is disgusting, corrupt and putrid in it's day to day dealings, especially in the way it treats its next generation of pilots. I've said this many times before on this forum. So, do something about it. Get out. The DGCA should be there to ensure you are trained and maintained to the right standard. It should protect Indian jobs for Indian pilots. It does none of this. Is it going to change tomorrow, next week, month, year or even 5 years? No, because of all the reasons it's so bad. So stop using it as a crutch and take your "passion" and "determination" to where it can be used and forward your career. So again, rise (!!!), get out and make it happen. With the right attitude, determination, humility and work ethic you can still make it happen. It might not be in India - and that could be a blessing in disguise. Worse case, you gain another 500-1500 hrs in your log book, gain amazing experience and stand head and shoulders above the next guy when presenting yourself for an interview back in India. That is unless the present methods to become an airline pilot have worked? But I don't think so. For the record, I never call any wannabe "the unwashed". I was one once. And I know what it took to get the career my "passion" and "determination" dictated. That is why I and others here cannot accept these continual "it's too hard" and the blame game. I can't think of one person who was successful at anything who let excuses and barriers get in the way of their success. |
Top Tup,
You ,my friend, misunderstood my point completely. It is not about aviation being different in any other part of the world ,it is about language. Yes, English is the language of aviation ,and, you will have to admit, of India. But, I have seen countless job postings for jobs in Europe that REQUIRE local language skills as necessary to be hired. Take my word for it, I tried. If, one of the wannabes wants all that you say they want -----jets only, close to home etc. then they probably deserve to be unemployed. But, I will bet you, there is a small percentage of the 7000 who would do anything and go anywhere to fly. Their problems are things like work visas, language skills and, like it or not, a certain amount of bias towards the brown man. Those obstacles can sometimes be harder to overcome than simple stick rudder and throttle skills. As for blaming the environment, that is a reality. Believe it or not the situation was NOT created by the wannabes but by a greedy corporate world and a failed government system. After that, they certainly shoulder much of the blame for feeling entitled. But, it is what it is. Alt 3. |
Canada and Australia used to have pilots on their list for skilled immigrants.You would have still needed a sponsor(Maybe lucky Raman found one) or a job offer.They knocked it off their list a long time ago.I think they realized how many pilots were unemployed in their own country :ouch:
Many of the airline pilots today have flown as instructors in the States.But I don't know anyone who has done that post 9/11. Europe was never an option.You won't get a visa.A JAR medical alone costs about 200 pounds in UK.Toptup will tell you about the costs involved in converting your license. If you think India is unsafe then you really shouldn't be recommending Africa.Last year an Indian pilot lost his life in the crash at Lagos. African Aviation Safety IATA: High airline accident rate in Africa still a concern - eTurboNews.com I have no idea about PNG @Toptup I'm given to self effacement.Im not so stuck up on titles as you are, so it really doesn't matter what you call me.As for the Indian culture...if there was really one thing we could borrow from the West it would be to address each other with first names instead of the Sir or Captain. |
Capt.Apache
TopTup is obsessed with anything & everything that relates to India be it Incredible India theme or Indian pilots young or old from airlines to charters.He will never ever give a second opinion about anything that has " India or Indian " in it , hell he even thinks that every pilot from India ( Third World Country for him ) is born unskilled and pampered by cash rich daddy's to flaunt over sized aviators with freshly inked CPL. The problem is not with him but his " Attitude " towards younger pilots from India which resembles almost with every expat's except few. All he has ever posted regarding Indian pilots is " BullCrap " filled with loads of venom....He will either bash and rant at AI for its miss management , how unskilled pilots of AI are along with crappy TRE/TRI/Checkers....or how he was unlawfully treated by them before showing him door of " Gateway out of India ". Never mind his post, for him every part of World is same.....you show up your face at every operators office anywhere in world and you will stand a chance to find job irrespective of work & visa procedures along with local law. If you put up your views its all whining & excuse. Anything other than he will give you a nice short crisp lesson on " English Grammar ". Pilotbaba Your post are not " eye opening or out of box thinking " but extremely hilarious. I for once remember you struggling hard to find a way or other to renew your DGCA CPL sometime back in 2011 or 2012.Where was your out of box thinking when your Indian CPL was on verge of lapse ? I bet you were so busy cleaning ,flying your piston's/turbo's/jets or whatever out of box you achieved since being a veteran struggler. 1.You say get Instructor rating , when a CPL holder is already in debt of 50K $ you want him to take again debt for what an instructor rating which has ZERO scope for him to land job in India seeing how many flying school we have or anywhere in world without right to work with what bare minimums hours ...? LOL 2.Wash ,clean,run,stripe yourself just to be near aircraft is your way of providing " out of box " thinking ? LOL its more like wanking wanking wanking...thinking about ohh yes i will get that plane and job.Come on dude dont be so lame...trying to find a job is better when you are in non flying aviation work but paying loans and feeding yourself shouldn't come as top priority ? A cleaner or ramp worker in India gets 4000-6000Rs per month on contract.Go do your maths... 3.GA flying, paid or semi paid....where in India ? Don't ever say this advice to any kid...GA in India is non existent , governed & ruled by ex - defence with hours on types.You will whore yourself if chosen GA in India.... 4.Move abroad, land a job....earn your hours and all i ask is WHERE ....Kindly give me a option and hey i ain't a bare CPL holder....i have right to work in India/UK and i got hours...hurray !! Sadly with my hours i don't stand a damn chance considering my 1000+TT even if i have right to work in other country then how will a young fresh CPL holder fare among very very experienced pilots with multi thousands hours on type ? You know what living around certain environment has an attitude cum personality change which i was taught in my CRM training and is clearly shown in you by your advice and views.Grow your views with ground reality , even if some indian marries a local he will have to wait for his right to work in that country...i bet you know immigration rules of the place you are living right now. Problem is not vaga bound CPL pilots or lack desire or under prepared planning or lack of jobs or anti govt. policies...it's an combination of things which i guess no one wanna give a shout. It's easy to bash people but you or any other older gents have absolutely no right to condemn every young pilot without a job.Not all people are wasting daddy's money , there are many who spent their own money to get CPL and waited for right moment to land a job.It's only those who dumbly followed national dailies with starry dreams crying foul now when banks are knocking for their money. Some will get job now , some will get it later ....not all will make it but many will.Time is greatest factor and i admire AV8R76 coz he has always been honest with his replies irrespective of topic but with full command of ground reality. Expats see Indian market are playing ground , we see as stepping stone...money is for all....time is sadly not for all.In Biz everything has stop-start-stop moment....few people started their journey at top of cycle others at bottom.Aviation is cycle certainly in India... |
So Raman is just "lucky" and that's it? Of course it couldn't of had anything to do with him researching, applying and doing whatever it takes to get the job? He got "lucky" because he TRIED. So many here do not even bother to try outside of their ignorant and arrogant self-absorbed and pre-ordained right to a job inside India on a pretty jet.
So an "Indian" died in a plain crash in Africa? What of other nationalities killed in African GA, or PNG, or Australia, NZ, Nth & Sth America? Does it matter the nationality? You have zero idea let alone concept about GA or being in Command of an aircraft OCTA. A pilot's skills need to be there and we have all made mistakes. We learned from those mistakes, matured from them, grew from them and took that experience toward the earned privilege of a jet. Alouette - language is no barrier unless you choose to make it. I know of several pilots who learned a new language in taking jobs in Europe. I met with one expat FO who once offered to learn Dutch within 12 months to sit the KLM exams since the exams were in Dutch. Ever tried getting a corporate job in certain parts of Asia or the Middle East and being American? I do not believe you have any experience but I have many friends who have. Please do not use the race card. Johnny - you're implications of racism are insulting and intolerable, let alone disgusting and offensive in the extreme. I comment on what I witnessed first hand: be they in India, Nth America, Europe, Asia or anywhere. I have written posts condemning the standards of aviation and airlines in all these countries. You however choose to follow a spineless and cowardice avenue of race. I stand by every comment I have ever posted about the standards of the DGCA and AI. The onus is 100% on you to prove any comment I've made wrong. I will always speak out about a pilot, be he Indian or from anywhere who meets me in the lobby of the hotel or dispatch office at age 20 with < 225 hrs and calls himself "Capt......." and when given the chance is nothing but a loaded gun with hammer cocked if given the controls. I strand by that professional assessment. As an FAA (and DGCA) approved widebody TRE I have the experience and credentials to comment on pilot standards, training systems and regulatory body methods to enforce them. Do you? If not them you have zero scope to challenge my assessment of standards. I have NEVER judged a person a race and find the mere hint or accusation immensely offensive. You have used quotations that make out I used those words. You are a liar. Find but one post where I have ever used any of the words you have used quotations for that I have ever used. I have said all along that the DGCA has failed the local Indian pilots in deliberately and knowingly failed them in providing the required standards of training career progression that they deserve. I have said the same of the airlines. And for the record, I am far from the only one bashing AI or the DGCA. This thread is almost in it's entirety about the same. I have made no excuses, not whined about my career as such, despite your claims and accusations. On the contrary. I, and others with "experience" by having been the shoes of a wannabe dispute the excuses and whines offered up here. Yes, I will point fingers at poor grammar. When idiots use "text speak" or cannot compose a simple sentence then they make a fool of themselves and a slur on the profession they believe they should be given a gold key to. You are also correct in saying that "you show up your face at every operators office anywhere in world and you will stand a chance to find job irrespective of work & visa procedures along with local law." YES! You have XERO chance of getting a job if you don't even apply or find a way to make it happen. The world is not the same all over - I more than most know. Why? Because I've been there. You have not. I have and many colleagues have as well applied for work visas knowing full well that there is a high chance of it being denied. And hey presto! Sometimes it works. But you never know unless you try. You have zero idea of the number of Indian wannabe pilots who have contacted me privately and whom I've had the privilege to coach and mentor. One active user of this web site took the advice, relentlessly studied hard, asked questions and we worked through his study and methods. He applied for an interview, he worked harder again, and got the job. He has the passion, determination and the humility to get what he wanted and do what it took. So the next time you try the race card and even attempt to sway toward calling me racist I suggest you grow a spine first as you have zero concept of the accusation you assume. |
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