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Rise! Unemployed pilots in India

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Rise! Unemployed pilots in India

Old 23rd Jun 2013, 22:28
  #1 (permalink)  
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Rise! Unemployed pilots in India

Its just pity how things only 'seem' to be improving in the aviation industry in India. It is a market to tap for the airlines who are capitalistic in their nature and not just want to WOO the flyers.

But honestly what has the government done? Why can't pilots myself included influence the nature of bills being drafted!

What was it the last time ... to replace the DGCA with a full autonomy financial operation body?! ... CAA ... again just to look after the interests of the airlines!

Instead of working on making Airports like Mumbai and Bangalore hubs of international travel.

Or something in the interest of the 1000s of unemployed pilots in the country?!

Doesn't anyone not know how to voice these concerns?

Then there are illegal agencies, poor training infrastructures, such few hour building jobs. . .

I feel gutted ...
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 01:24
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Why is it the governments problem if stupid kids with big dreams want to go and take big loans / waste daddy's money on pilot licences? If they did their research properly before they started, they would know that there's already thousands of unemployed 200 hour pilots and finding the first job is like winning the lottery.

It's the same problem in every country on earth not just India ...
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 02:35
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But one of the biggest problems is the scourge of falsified / bogus qualifications. There are airlines that are excluding pilots from India and asking them not to apply.

Last edited by Orangputi; 24th Jun 2013 at 02:36.
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 04:14
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I dont get why "azax" you think your government should spend its hard earned tax dollars to influence people to get you a job ? Can you justify that to us please .... oh right you cannot.

In a democratic country the government has no business interfering with free market trade... so unfortunately my friend you are wasting your time posting here about your decision to become a Pilot, just because your paid all that money doesnt mean A) you are a good pilot, and/or B) you are worth employing.

A pilots license doesn't automatically qualify you for a job, you still have to fit the mold of what a airline wants so right from day one you took a big gamble... like we all did.

Good luck with your crusade!

Last edited by itsbrokenagain; 24th Jun 2013 at 04:14.
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 08:10
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the problem with Indian aviation, is India, and boils down to three simple factors

1. a monarchy masquerading as a democracy
2. a national culture where no Indian can stand watching another do well
3. a level of unsurpassed greed and thieving which is now accepted as
normal

with these 3, you can fill in the blanks and see why any company or country will be unable to remotely flourish.

1. the nations leaders are mainly crooks who steal, then when they get
caught, go through every trick in the book to show how they are not to
blame. if they are jailed, it is to allow the stealing to go on. and they do
not return a single rupee, and start stealing again.
2. the regulatory body, the DGCA is a piece of undiluted shit. some of the
people running it cannot even read and write, and have never seen a
computer in their life. their sole duty is to sit in their position and make
sure that they make life miserable for all Indians and try to stop progress in a rapidly changing aviation world. fake licences, bribery,pleasing politicians, nepotism......sound familiar???
3. an airline traffic clerk, now the owner of a major airline in India. chance,
hard work, ability?? the only thing which swung it was the bags of cash
sent on a daily basis. btw, the deal in Abu Dhabi is already done with the money proportions already distributed. the civil aviation minister has just returned. what's in the papers is for your consumption.
and the other entity, a clown more interested in his calendar, cars and horses, masturbated by a media comparing him to Branson. the result, you can see the familiar trail of nothing. lets not talk about the national carrier.
4. one of the saddest situations to arise is to see the pilots at Jet refuse to
allow the fellow Indian Kingfisher guys to get a job when they were down.
the Jet guys managed to get wide body expertise, throw out the
foreigners, then turn on their own countrymen. they are on the verge
of payback time.

watch the games the start in the Air Asia start up. the politicians and Delhi
boys will come calling when the time is right. and we will have another joke again.
India will not be a Turkey, Brazil, or Egypt, so sit back and enjoy the ride.
there is no way in the world, with the thin margins in aviation between profit and loss, that any airline will last.
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 09:03
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And that's how we keep on fighting among ourselves. Advantage to our corrupt government.
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 09:15
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Luke SkyToddler

I am assuming that you are also one of the unemployed CPL holders with or without TR whatever the case may be. If you are then as per your saying you have also wasted your daddy's money on your flying training. isn't it???
Well, no one has wasted their daddy's money on getting their licence. people are gradually getting hired. if you take out the statistics of the employment and vacancies for the last 4 years, you will notice a reasonable number of CPL holders with or without TR got hired. situation is not as bad as it was ,its improving and getting better. Vacancies and opportunities will keep coming in the coming years. best example is the recent jet airways opening for ab initio pilots and the vacancy for the TR people which came in the month of march.

And,If you are already flying for someone then I request you to please do not demoralise anyone. Everyone is trying and giving their best just like you and me so let them try.
And yes, There is no stupidity in dreaming big.

Last edited by gambol; 24th Jun 2013 at 09:44.
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 04:00
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Reasonable number of people got hired in the last 4 years??? If that was the case then people would not be complaining about the high rates of unemployment among CPL holders in India.

Air India and Jet Airways are the biggest airlines in India. The last time Air India came up with a vacancy for non-TR guys was in April 2009. Jet came up with one in Aug 2010. They came up with a vacancy again in Feb 2011. The Feb 2011 recruitment exercise has STILL not been completed. Indigo has not recruited anyone in more than a year and same is perhaps() the case with Spicejet. Infact Indigo has a surplus of pilots.

Reasonable number of people got hired in the last 4 years??? If that was the case then CPL holders would not be leaving in hordes to get Type-ratings WITHOUT a job guarantee. It is the desperation resulting from years of mass unemployment that leads people to do that.

I am sorry if anybody feels demoralized after reading my post but i am just stating facts. The misinformation spread by the media about pilot shortage in 2006-2007 has contributed to the present situation. I request that people do not come to these threads and spread any more disinformation about "things getting better" unless they can justify their claim with the statistics that they claim to have access to but refuse to share.

The day airlines would feel the need to hire a "reasonable" number of people, they would have to do away with the requirement of self-sponsored TR. Looking at the way things are, that day may never come!! Somebody tell me i am wrong.
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 05:33
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RDR asserts
one of the saddest situations to arise is to see the pilots at Jet refuse to allow the fellow Indian Kingfisher guys to get a job when they were down.
Way off the mark. Jet Airways pilots had was that there were chaps eligible for the left seat of the Airbus, by transition or upgrade. The pilot objected to KF pilots being inserted into the left seat before those current 9W chaps who met the requirements for the left seat. I don't blame the 9W pilots for their objections.

RDR further states...
Jet guys managed to get wide body expertise, throw out the foreigners, then turn on their own countrymen. they are on the verge of payback time.
Again, way off the mark. The purpose of an expat is to provide a service on a contractual basis until such time that the company in question is able to promote those from within the company to the position occupied by the expat. Expats realize that contracts are temporary in nature, regardless of the time stated within the contract. Jet curtailed a number of routes with the A-330. Thus leaving a glut of qualified pilots. Who goes first... Expats or locals?

The same happened with the B737 expats too. However, Jet realized that they've made a mistake I their numbers and recalled 11 pilots back, of which only 4 returned.

Last edited by captjns; 25th Jun 2013 at 05:38.
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 05:44
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Rise of unemployed CPLs in India? You bet. Not because airlines are laying off, but flight schools are preying on children. Parents of these spoiled little brats pull on the shirt tails of Mommy and Daddy... "I wanna be an airline pilot".

Mommy and Daddy acquiesce to the child's rants. Mommy and Daddy spend $50,000 USD on PPL, CPL, MEL, IRL certificates. They return to India with certificates in hand only to be part of the problem... an increase in the unemployed Indian Aviation Market. Let's not forget all the Indians who were sacked from Indonesia for undocumented certificates, falsified logged hours, along with fraudulent documentation. More chaps to flood the already flooded market.

Tough break I agree. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. Jet Airways is actively recruiting CPLs as they are expanding their B737 fleet by an average of one aircraft per month.
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 06:39
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But there is light at the end of the tunnel. Jet Airways is actively recruiting CPLs as they are expanding their B737 fleet by an average of one aircraft per month.
So 12 aircraft a year. They'll need not more than 60-70 FOs. In the first five months of this year alone 242 CPLs were issued and there are already 6000+ unemployed CPL holders in the market. At this rate, by the time those 60-70 people get hired, another 600 odd CPL holders will be added to the 6000 figure. So for every 1 that Jet hires, 10 will be added to the unemployed pile. This is IF Jet expands its fleet at all. We have heard expansion plans before. Most of them in the past have gone awry. Again, somebody tell me that i am wrong.
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 09:49
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out of these so called 5000 CPL's only 100 or so are employable pilots and out of that 50 will become capts. The issue is non of these kid did an assessment for pilot aptitude and will fail when the airline puts them thru the test
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 12:32
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@jack_s

You just hit the nail right on the head with that one. I personally know a lot of people with a CPL and absolutely no knowledge of flying whatsoever.
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 13:07
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Same problem all over Asia, or do you think this is not happening in Philippines , china, Malaysia, singapore and so on.....
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 13:20
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Big daddy wants the boy to be a pilot, and he will be a pilot, at any cost!
No problem, if he sleeps most of the time - at least he cannot make any mistakes - picking up the mobile during takeoff, no problem, we are the new rich generation, airbus is building planes almost fully automated, so what to be concerned about?
This is not general for all the newcomers, some of them are bright and brilliant, but some are just sandbags at daddy's costs. Sadly they don't even realize it!
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 22:01
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@ billboard

what do you want from the airlines that they should recruit all the 6000 pilots at once???? its not just the aviation industry, but the educated unemployment has affected other fields too. The unemployment rate of India is 9.9 %,and I don't think so that aviation field has contributed alone to this number. Every year India adds to her population afresh. More than this every year about 5 million people become eligible for securing jobs.

There is a high rate of unemployment in Aviation industry because companies and jobs are less.There is a greater mismatch between supply and demand in this industry as compare to the other fields.even if you cut down the number of CPL holders from 6000 to 1500, many people would still remain unemployed.

when a vast multitude of people left for US,Canada Australia etc to get their CPL in 2006-2007 then there were not 6000 pilots sitting unemployed back at home, people who were getting back with CPL did not have to compete with 6000 competitors for a job, probably then they did not make a bad decision by getting into flying. but,now in 2013, if anyone wish to get a CPL,probably then he's on a career suicide path. consequences will be much worse.

The last time Air India came up with a vacancy for non-TR guys was in April 2009. Jet came up with one in Aug 2010. They came up with a vacancy again in Feb 2011. The Feb 2011 recruitment exercise has STILL not been completed. Indigo has not recruited anyone in more than a year and same is perhaps() the case with Spicejet. Infact Indigo has a surplus of pilots.
Above quoted data are for the non-type rated vacancies. Apart from these,I guess IndiGo, Spice jet, Jet Airways and Air India did come with vacancies/openings for the TR candidates in 2011 and 2012. Even Go Air conducted exams for the type rated ones in august 2011. IndiGo conducted exams every month for more than a year from May 2010 to August 2011.
So,under these vacancies they recruited more and more unemployed pilots. Jet recruited TR guys twice or thrice in 2012. Spice were in hiring spree too.
We are in the middle of the 2013, and this is the third vacancy (jet airways 2013) of this year. (IndiGo in March 2013 and Jet in march 2013).
We may see another one or two in the coming 6 months. no one knows. Being optimistic,I hope vacancies will keep coming. one has to be patient, study, work hard and be ready for the opportunity. Those who deserve will get recruited eventually.


I request that people do not come to these threads and spread any more disinformation about "things getting better" unless they can justify their claim with the statistics that they claim to have access to, but refuse to share.
So, if the above statistics which I presented about the vacancies and recruitment by different airlines are true then please tell me how did I spread misinformation when I said conditions have gone better in the last 4 years.

If that was the case then CPL holders would not be leaving in hordes to get Type-ratings WITHOUT a job guarantee. It is the desperation resulting from years of mass unemployment that leads people to do that.
You are wrong, people are leaving for the type rating because they know airlines are creating more and more openings for the type rated people and they are preferring type rated pilots over the CPL lots. They know if they will get the rating then their prospect of getting into an airline will become much bright over the Non-typerated ones. (bright only for aspirants with aptitude and brains).

So 12 aircraft a year. They'll need not more than 60-70 FOs. In the first five months of this year alone 242 CPLs were issued and there are already 6000+ unemployed CPL holders in the market. At this rate, by the time those 60-70 people get hired, another 600 odd CPL holders will be added to the 6000 figure. So for every 1 that Jet hires, 10 will be added to the unemployed pile.This is IF Jet expands its fleet at all. We have heard expansion plans before. Most of them in the past have gone awry. Again, somebody tell me that i am wrong.
You forgot other airlines. Other airlines will hire and employ pilots too. Jet Airways expansion plan is on and that is the reason why we have the recent vacancy for the CPL holders.
You have to be more optimistic. I beg to differ with your opinion.

Last edited by gambol; 25th Jun 2013 at 23:02.
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 23:16
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100% agree with gambol, I think he/she mentioned what most of us understand and feel.
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Old 26th Jun 2013, 05:11
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The unemployment rate of India is 9.9 %
Yes but the "employment" rate for CPL holders must be around 9.9 %. I am sure i am not off the mark by much when i say that. The net capacity addition to the combined fleet of scheduled operators in the past 4 years has been less than 80. Number of FOs required? About 400. Lets assume another 200 positions were created due to promotions of existing FOs. Why just 200? Due to the availability of ex-military pilots with good quantity and quality of experience and low quality of civilian FOs. Lets say another 100 got jobs in the surprisingly small general aviation of the country. So around 700 people recruited in the last 4 years. Number of CPLs issued in the last 4 years alone? About 5000!!

So when you say that:
if you take out the statistics of the employment and vacancies for the last 4 years, you will notice a reasonable number of CPL holders with or without TR got hired.
, i beg to differ with your opinion.


when a vast multitude of people left for US,Canada Australia etc to get their CPL in 2006-2007 then there were not 6000 pilots sitting unemployed back at home, people who were getting back with CPL did not have to compete with 6000 competitors for a job, probably then they did not make a bad decision by getting into flying. but,now in 2013, if anyone wish to get a CPL,probably then he's on a career suicide path. consequences will be much worse.
Agree.

You are wrong, people are leaving for the type rating because they know airlines are creating more and more openings for the type rated people and they are preferring type rated pilots over the CPL lots. They know if they will get the rating then their prospect of getting into an airline will become much bright over the Non-typerated ones. (bright only for aspirants with aptitude and brains).
Agree. But what is going to happen in a year or two? Instead of just plain CPL holders cribbing about unemployment, we will have a sizable number of type rated CPL holders cribbing about unemployment. The size of Indian aviation is just not big enough to absorb a "reasonable" percentage of the unemployed CPL holders with or without a type rating!

I believe in free market dynamics. If people want to spend 45-50 lakhs just to attain the privilege to apply for a job in a fledgling industry, its their choice. But when making an investment, there is something known as "stop-loss." CPL holders who have not yet got a type-rating might want to read about it.


IndiGo conducted exams every month for more than a year from May 2010 to August 2011.
Really? That is news for me! No wonder they have a surplus of pilots now. No wonder they have put their Mar 2012 recruitment on hold and haven't yet declared the results of the April 2013 written.

So, if the above statistics which I presented about the vacancies and recruitment by different airlines are true then please tell me how did I spread misinformation when I said conditions have gone better in the last 4 years.
I suspect we have different methods of estimating the number of FOs hired. I use the number of aircraft inducted by operators. You seem to use the number of recruitment exercises. The reason why i don't use the recruitment exercises is because it does not come from official sources and is generally only word of the mouth. Sometimes just rumors. The number of aircraft with different airlines in India can be verified from DGCA's website. Where can i go to find out the number of people hired by airlines?

Whether the conditions have gone better or worse can simply be judged by the eligibility requirements for airline positions. When airlines, especially the national airline, start asking for TR for most of the vacancies then i would not say that conditions have gone better. Infact with more and more people getting their CPLs everyday, the employment situation is getting worse.
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Old 26th Jun 2013, 07:15
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Some of the problem with some Indian new CPL holders are perceptions embedded in the psyche of many Indians. I lived there for over 4 years, while frequenting the country as a PIO for 12 years. I am married to an Indian/ have an extensive Indian family. More often than not I hear, "what will government do?"

That's like Christians leaving their fate up to God.

Government will do less for you than you ever expect so you need to go out and seize opportunities yourselves, else you'll likely never be satisfied in this line of work.

As a new CPL, with visions of direct entry into an airliner cockpit, you were quite very well duped by the training mills of the world, plenty of which exist in India. This has been an on-going problem in the US as well where you plow your life savings into getting all your licenses and finish up schooling only to find that since you have no actual experience... nobody will hire you.

Now some people have luck, the right connections, money, whatever, to get an airline job quickly. But for the vast majority of us who don't have the aforementioned, one must hustle and get motivated to sieze every opportunity available to build hours. If you wait around for the government to do this, life will pass you by.

This is a great profession, a good career. But it often takes at least 10+ years to realize that. A lot of so-called paying your dues in the meantime.

When I was going to flight school in 1988, guys ahead of me were getting hired as instructors, logging 1,000 hrs more then getting hired by an airline. But right when I graduated, the economy hit the skids. I couldn't find even one job teaching flying. So I went to work shining aircraft and offering to sit right seat on Part 91 flights. Slowly but surely I built my own clientele of students so that I could also teach flying and remain even more current that way. I had 3 jobs at any given time including working as an insurance agent, accounts receivables collector, and a stockbroker. I figured ways to intertwine all said jobs with aviation (using an airplane to go visit clients in Southern California, for example).

It took years but eventually I built up my flight time enough to get hired by an airline. Friends of mine who were in a similar position gave up and have office jobs today. Whereas I am a Captain for a major US airline. The government never came in to help me, nor did my parents or anyone else.

The point is, only you can shape your own destiny/ future. It may be a long tough road but the reward is doing a job that's better than most. I won't go so far as to say "doing what you love". That's cliche. I love flying, but not airline flying. This is a job that pays well and affords me usually half the month off along with mostly-free travel. That's a pretty good gig in the scheme of jobs. I wouldn't say I love it but I'd rather be doing this than sitting in an office or building houses. There are drawbacks, sure, most of us on here know what those all are but to stay on point the rewards exceed the detractors.

So rather than complaining about what government will do for you. Move on, move forward, and go out to stake your claim on life on your own. If government does something for you (they do more for new CPL holder in India than the US gov't does here in America, believe me... so at least be happy they do something), then that's just a bonus. But don't expect them to roll out the red carpet for your career trajectory.

95% of the aviators reading of my will find a reason to complain and do nothing. While 5% will either make a change in their career path to go out and find some traction, or they are already doing that now.

Some people get lucky, get hired early on, and make command by 23, 26, or 30. But for the rest of us we have to go out and make things happen else life will pass you by. It will take hard work no matter which way you slice it and government will have very little bearing on the overall outcome.

Last edited by Geebz; 26th Jun 2013 at 07:20.
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Old 26th Jun 2013, 15:24
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gambol

Some people will understand your point of you which is almost inline with current aviation market scene in our country but rest who have myopia or p!ssed filled brain won't relate with your views.
Airlines all over world are doing biz but few wise people here think's otherwise and in biz things always go in " stop-start-stop " way.So in one year you will see airlines running to fill vacant positions and in next year they will not even return calls due to severe over crowding of manpower.

billboard
You are wrong, people are leaving for the type rating because they know airlines are creating more and more openings for the type rated people and they are preferring type rated pilots over the CPL lots. They know if they will get the rating then their prospect of getting into an airline will become much bright over the Non-typerated ones. (bright only for aspirants with aptitude and brains).
Agree. But what is going to happen in a year or two? Instead of just plain CPL holders cribbing about unemployment, we will have a sizable number of type rated CPL holders cribbing about unemployment. The size of Indian aviation is just not big enough to absorb a "reasonable" percentage of the unemployed CPL holders with or without a type rating!

I believe in free market dynamics. If people want to spend 45-50 lakhs just to attain the privilege to apply for a job in a fledgling industry, its their choice. But when making an investment, there is something known as "stop-loss." CPL holders who have not yet got a type-rating might want to read about it.
Either you are not Indian or aware of Indian aviation's current behavior or you are utterly pessimistic seeing TYPE rated pilots with bare minimum getting jobs over you and alike.

Don't kid yourself or others with blanket statements like this.If given opportunity with easy access to finances , you will be first one to run after a rating with or without assurance from airlines.

Reason for getting rated on big boy's-
1. In India , Rated pilots are given preference due to limited training cost incurred by airlines.
2. Rated pilots are placed first in those airlines which depends on external training facilities.
3. General Aviation in India is non existent, those who publishes jobs for charters actually ask you to pay for " rating + training + hours + all others sh!ts " which will always cost anything above 25L Rs.
4. Rating is almost now a Standard for Airline's in India as per last few years recruitment stats.



Brightest of lot be it plain vanilla CPL holders rated pilots have got job's in last 5 years due to their sheer skill's and knowledge.Those lacking them improved their skills and got placed rest started cribbing and destroying this field by doing P2F's /Bribing their way in before getting booted out being poor.Glut or unemployment of rated pilots is nothing new as its been pilling up since 2009 for 737 and will go even more but for skilled person this should not bother.

The most important factor of unemployment was bubble created by GOI's civil aviation ministry to mop up under table gains.
Family's who wanted to cash in monetary gains of having sons or daughters as pilot with fat pay by reading " get CPL in 6 months , Job in 12 months with 24 Lakh's p.a " adverts in national dailies.
Then came Mallya and his KFA....single most destructive thing that happened to every pilot looking for job which flooded market 320/ATR experienced pilots.

Quote:
IndiGo conducted exams every month for more than a year from May 2010 to August 2011.
Really? That is news for me! No wonder they have a surplus of pilots now. No wonder they have put their Mar 2012 recruitment on hold and haven't yet declared the results of the April 2013 written.
Recruitment is on hold due to KFA's experienced pilots.
Do you even know how many ex-KFA pilots are in Indigo or Jet or Spice right now ?


Re-Quoting RDR's pointers which simpifies why we are lagging in aviation.
The problem with Indian aviation, is India, and boils down to three simple factors

1. a monarchy masquerading as a democracy
2. a national culture where no Indian can stand watching another do well
3. a level of unsurpassed greed and thieving which is now accepted as
normal
Truth is we are ever expanding country with population but our thinking and views remained stagnant since pre-independence governed by ancient dated rules.

Those who got financial power always takes chances and in our culture family support plays a big part which for some unknown reason non indian's can't understand and are always referring why " Daddies and Mommies pay for their kids training ", may be they don't know the meaning of family structure or didnt had luxury of sugar parents..
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