Im with you 737ipa. Same situation, same worries. Shame we can't all be as cool as fatbus though. Maybe he can give us all some lessons in gaining the 'skygod' status :ugh:

I'd rather take cash than flight hours, should anyone be in a give-away mood... :E

We will agree to disagree. My colleagues tell a different story. Are you really speaking for all the foreign pilots at CSA?

Logging the hours is the least concern for me.. even if you log half the time it will still add up slowly.

Im more interested in schedule and being there for the long term.

777newbie please drop me a PM.


Best Regards

WJP

Although i don't work for CSA, I have been working for one of the other major carriers for 5 years and can offer an explanation of how the Chinese system of Capt. grades works there.

There are 3 main grades of Capt., in our company they are called M, J and A. The A grade is divided into sub-grades A1 and A2.

The M grade is assigned to trainees entering the fleet, regardless of past experience. This applies to all pilots and lasts until sufficient training checks are completed. Generally about 1-2 months if type rated, 6 months otherwise. An M captain can only fly in the left seat and do T/O's and LDG's with a training Capt. along in the right. He is never the PIC.

The J grade is assigned to a "junior" captain having passed all line checks. Again this grade is applied to all captains (Chinese or expat) regardless of previous experience (i.e even a senior training capt on one fleet will have to be a J for period of time when he changes fleet). A J captain has very limited PIC qualifications, generally only to do domestic flights where only 1 capt. is assigned [A colleague has reminded me that J's are no longer authorized to be domestic PICs, this now requires an A1 grade]. On international flights there are always 2 capt.s assigned, at least one of which is an A capt. or trainer. The A capt./trainer is always the PIC. The Chinese J capts may be logging some form of Capt/PICus time in their logbooks, but it would not be considered PIC time under normal conventions. J captains get upgraded to A captains at the discretion of the fleet management. Typically the minimum time required for pilots without previous type experience is 12-18 months with at least 3 recurrent sim sessions now required, or so I'm told. For type rated guys it is usually done in 1-3 months.

The A grade is applied to line captains who are normally PICs on all flights except when working with a training captain. The only difference between an A1 and A2 appears to be time served at the grade level, though an A2 will always be the PIC if paired with an A1 captain. On occasion two A2 captains are paired together. Usually the expat A2 is the PIC as typically in such cases the Chinese A2 does not have a suitable language qualification to be the PIC for international flights.

Bottom line, if you are type rated you will progress to A captain fairly quickly as that is the position they have hired you to fill. If you are non-type rated you will be expected to progress through the same hoops and at the same rate (or slower) as the local captains joining the fleet with essentially the same previous qualifications. Based on the experience of NTR joiners so far I'd suggest planning on 2 years before an upgrade to A status and routine designation as PIC is possible. So far nobody's done it in our outfit and some of the NTR guys are 18 months on the job.

As mentioned above, i don't work for CSA but my suspicion is that the guts of their system is the same as ours and generally in line with what CAAC expects from the major carriers. Possibly the domestic & cargo carriers with less international exposure have simpler systems.

In any event, good luck to all who wish to give it try, but heed the warnings of those who've already been and done ... not all will be as rosy as it might appear and the value of hours logged as anything less than the designated PIC for the flight may be dubious when considered by other carriers in other jurisdictions.

Caveat Emptor.

ELAC

Edited to clarify that J Capt.'s are no longer authorized as domestic PICs

That has to be by far the best explanation I have ever read about wide-body Captain progression in China. Thanks a million ELAC for the detailed presentation. :D:D:D

That makes sense to me and I think CSA probably uses a similar road: a few months of line training with a line training captain, and then about 12-18 months as part of a double crew paired up with a senior Captain until the company is comfortable enough to qualify you as A level and be the designated PIC.

The total investment until fully released as designated PIC is about 2 years, which matches the bond.

In my opinion, not a bad transition for a narrow body captain like myself and some other NTR's wanting to upgrade to long haul OPS, since we are getting paid full CPT coinage from the beginning and already flying from the left seat as CPT's. Obviously not logging full PIC as most other jurisdictions / operators understand it, but Captain time at least and learning the new ball game the right way in what seems to be a good contract, from what's being said from CPT's already flying for CSA.

An accurate description of the system at another major Prc carrier by Elac. Foreign Captains have worked here for seven years, Ntr crews for 18 months or so. Caveat Emptor should also be read as 'you are moving into uncharted territory' for the Ntr crw.

Our Ntr cew that have made enquiries about moving on have found the Chinese type rating & lack of real Pic experience to be something of a hurdle when approaching non-Prc airlines

As posted previously, think carefully about the following-
1) The 2 years you will spend out of the 'real' left seat
2) Losing currency on your previous type
3) Medical jeopardy.

Still an ok deal for type rated pilots but a real leap of faith for Ntr applicants.

Long term & Prc contract flying should not be used in the same sentence.

Theres allot of hypothesizing about the PIC time and the status of the job.

Ill put a request into CSA to clarify the logging of time. If I hear anything Ill let you know.


WJP

CSA offering non typed, are they still firm on the 3000 hours with 50 tonnes or is it just 3000 jet pic of which 2000 of it must be in a 737 or bigger boeing. I am very interested in applying but would like to make sure i have the qualifications first.

thanks

Go to the recruiter websites and read the qualifications -



Total Time: 6000+ hours (excl SIM time)
Total PIC time: 3000+ hours on Jets over 50 tons (MTOW)
Boeing PIC time: 1000+ hours on B777/B747; OR
Boeing PIC time: 2000+ hours on B767/B757/B737
Last Flight: Last flight as PIC on the above types within 12 months
Age: If B777 type rated - under 53 years at date of application
Age: If NOT B777 type rated - under 50 years at date of application

basically to answer your Question you must have 3000 Jet over 50T AND at least 2000PIC on types listed plus the TT plus meet the age requirements.

Its not a one of list - you must have it all.

Good Luck.

WJP

Any idea if CSA use sub-standard hotels during layover like the other company in China?

Thanks

Any idea if CSA recruit substandard western pilots to fool their passengers like a lot of other Asian carriers? Muchos gracias!

So when did you get rejected Gerago ?

Bit of a jerk statement really wasn't it ??

WJP

Hit a chord didn't it WJA?:ok:

Not at all - My friend.

I just thought it was a douchey comment by someone that was simply trying to troll.

WJP

This is a very interested job offer base in Vancouver or Los Angeles.

China Southern A330, 340 Type Rated Captains for A Potential A380 Conversion

Flightdeck Consulting is now accepting expressions of interest for A330, 340 type rated captains with various roster patterns and bases.

Potential Bases

Guangzhou, London, Sydney, Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam, Vancouver and Los Angeles.

Any one here on that contract, that can answer some questions?

China Southern A380 - Flightdeck Consulting Airline Recruitment and Interview Specialists

Just got through their selection....toughest I've ever done by a mile. Looking forward to the start date and a new chapter. Can't wait to see my ex wifes face when she realises her free lunch is over :-)

Well done bud :D Good to hear.

Congrats bacon,

did you complete the second round - the CAAC ride, if so ive got it scheduled and would sure love some first hand knowledge.

Which position and base are you selecting.

Cheers

WJP

CSA
 

Hey Man congrats!!!!

I'm in the process myself for the 787 so if you can share the experience I would much appreciated. I just got done turning in my paperwork with LongReach and just waiting to hear. I'm 737 so I'm a bit nervous.
What is your background? And what was the timeline of your process from the day they turned your paperwork in?

Again congrats man,

Cheers from the U.S.

Mat

Merker What base would you be going for?

WJP

Medical Check.....
 

Hey Guys. New to PPrune. Agency have informed me that my application for screening with CSA has been approved, so am currently waiting for my screening date, hopefully in Feb. Am thinking the medical could be a 'pain in the neck', as I have a slight neck issue. Anybody know if they do Neck X-rays &/or neck MRI's? Would really appreciate any info. Many thanks in advance.....

I'm no doctor, but when I did my assesment they laid me down and checked my throat area thru an ecography. They also did an MRI on us where the whole body was inside the "tube".

Many thanks for the info '737lpa' - much appreciated. Sorry if i've just repeated the request for info on another (later) post, as I couldn't see the previous one had been accepted/posted - am not a spring chicken when it comes to social media!:ugh:

SuperReds
 

Hi,
Im no doctor either so I will just tell you what i was told. I think it will depend what 'problem' you have with your neck. Your neck is indeed scanned by ultrasound during the medical but when i asked what its for, they said its to check the Carotid Artery. This makes sense as they only ultrasound the right side of your neck and that is where this Artery runs......at least thats what Wikepedia told me when i looked it up :)

Regarding the MRI.....again this is just what i was told but apparently that is to check your brain for potential tumours etc so not sure if it has anything to do with the neck. Again that was just what i was told when i asked.

Obviously we dont know what your problem is but i would say go for it anyway. The medical is very 'particular' compared to what we are used to here in Europe but you may find they dont even pick up on your 'issue' and you sail through.

Good luck with whatever you choose.
All the best

Anyone done the CAAC sim yet?

Hi mach85. This is the 3rd (and final) time i'll try replying, as my account is playing up and crashes each time I try to submit - I can fly an aircraft - honest!

Anyway, many thanks for your info. My concern (from reading it somewhere) was that they fail people for, amongst other things, 'cervical spondylosis (phase II & above)'. I have a very slight issue, which gives a very occasional mild dull ache. I have full movement, and have just had xrays which confirm there's been no change in the last 7 years. I was worried what 'phase II & above' was, but it looks like my condition would be considered less than this level, and in any case from what you've indicated it doesn't look like they automatically do xrays/MRI's of this area, perhaps only doing this if they have cause for concern from a physical examination or similar?

I'll be there - fingers crossed hey!

Happy New Year to you all! :)

China Medical
 

Super Reds,

Did My China 1st Class 2 years ago, very thorough, however no MRI Cervical or otherwise. Abdominal ultrasound, and echogram of the cervical region which would show no osteo spinal abnormalities other than potential impingement of cervical vasculature, (arteries).

They will perform EEG, and try to induce, (lightly, no stroboscopic lights), seizure activity.

Also, general exam, previous surgeries, bring reports of recent procedures.

Give it a go, do not reveal any headache symptoms, if they see anything interesting in the cervical region, Let Them Tell You.

Also, no Lasik, Ortho Keratolgic etc., invasive to the eye.

Other than these thorny issues, not too bad, far easier than Japan with the BMI concerns.

Safe Journies...Sushi

I note Sydney mentioned as a future 787 base. Anyones crystal balls know for far that "future" is?

Seems the 380 does SYD

All day Sushi

Many thanks for all the info. Very much appreciated.....

787 training
 

Anyone else poised to attend 787 training in Singapore on Jan 27th?

csa bond
 

Has anyone signed a contract with Parc for CSA Capt? Anyone set up a $22,000 training bond with Parc? The draft document Parc sent me for a Bond is incomplete and unworkable from a bank standpoint. :rolleyes:

Slyde did you have to do the CAAC ride - ive got it scheduled shortly and would appreciate any insight.

WJP

Bond...
 

Dont take any bond arrangement ... Change agents ...!!!

From what Ive seen - Parc, Lomngreach and Rishworth are all holding firm on this bond.

Whats worse is the wording of it - It basically says if you leave anytime within the four years ( either by choice of CSA or yourself) you have to pay.

Not Cool - if for some reason someone in training doesnt like you.

If anything at all should only be punitive should the candidate walk - not if the candidate gets thrown out the door.

WJP

I have reliably heard that the bond has been placed on the agents by the company and these agents are trying to pass it on to reduce their exposure.

Obviously, they expect pilots to leave early or there wouldn't be a bond.
Pay is pretty good, new airplanes, international routes. What could it be?.... hmmmm.

Don't accept it, look for an honest agent.

Alternatively, tell the agents to reduce their $1000 per month cut for doing sweet 'F' all.
4 years at a $1000 per month is.... $48,000 , and more than twice the bond even if the pilot stays!

If they can't get pilots, they don't get paid and they will soon get the message.

Once you sign, you are stuck and having the intention to stay for 4 years doesn't mean that you will be able to. I have seen it get pretty bad in places like, just changing the conditions or, cancelling bases.
Like it or, leave and pay your bond.
Of course , the agents continue to get their money if you are happy or not.

A few years ago now but , a friend was presented with a fax, the night before his sim checkride , the agency demanded that he sign an agreement to give them US$2500 should he be offered a job but, not accept it.
Sign or no sim tomorrow!
Nothing was said during all of the processing , visa ,medical , air law,etc.

bond
 

For clarification bond/bank guarantee is for TWO years:

Less than 6 months, $22,000 usd to be paid to CAE Parc
Less than 12 months but more than 6 months, $19,000 usd to be paid to CAE Parc
Less than 18 months but more than 12 months, $16,000 usd to be paid to CAE Parc
Less than 24 months but more than 18 months, $13,000 usd to be paid to CAE Parc

Obviously not cool but agencies stated are requiring it. AviatorAsia is presently not requiring the bond up front, only if you fail to complete training???

Allegedly CSA has just stopped the application process for this contract due to massive interest. They apparently have been filling training slots so the bond hasn't entirely dissuaded everyone. It is always difficult to get the collective group on the same page.:hmm:

Anyone knows if the europeans bases are immediately available for NTR pilots, or just when you become full captain, which takes around 1,5 years.

Do you want to define "full" captain.