Wyoming pilot. Your infomation is inaccurate re Jade and by association how you believe it will happen at CSA. The very first cohort of Jade 744 captains were more than 50% narrow-body captains with no wide body time in any seat. Indeed the German chief pilot who had no wide body time, inherited his position; post a stouch between the German C.P. and German management. The chief of training had no W/B time prior to joining Jade. True there were lots of opportunities back then but the reason later joiners became cruise captains was mostly due to numbers, not because of CAA policy. Also a lot of hopefuls came from the right seat to cruise captains jobs thinking they would get a command quickly. Having had no jet command at all, and when the ruse and illegallity was exposed the whole playing field was changed when a new manager from Germany was brought in. If you have studied the CAAC regs you will know that there is no such thing as a cruise captain; if a pilot has to sit in the left seat for whatever reason he must be fully qualified as a captain-no buts.

CSA assessed a bunch of very experienced 744 captains recently. Most, if not all, it seems passed -medical notwithstanding. How many of them accept the job will be another issue. CSA doesn't need cruise captains. All of those guys and gals will be asking the hard questions before they dive in. It's all new for CSA -it needs people with good skills and flexibilty for left seat jobs. They will not be training you how to be a widebody captain-they expect that you will already be a superior one..

Hence their policy of flying you with an experiened Chinese Captain if they have any reservation at all.

USD18500 net a month. Qantas captains get this, but for how much longer?

Jade promised fast upgrades from CC to Full up PIC and it never materialized. I have many friends and colleagues who were former Jade pilots. Many of the pilots left after 3-4 years still as CC. The issue is not the particular company involved but how the CAAC will restrict them. There are Air China pilots who were former 320 Captains and promised a NTR A-330 Captain. Many of these pilots are still after 2 years not full PICs and many are flying right seat and paid as FOs. At Juneyao the upgrade for NTR guys has stalled to a staggering 1.5 year process for NTR pilots. Grand Star cargo and Yangtze River tried bringing on NTR pilots and the process took well over 2 years to get them to full PIC. I am not saying you will never make it here. Just be advised how the China CAAC system will not allow NTR guys flying here without an extensive long drawn out processes under a sophisticated bureaucratic system which is slow, inefficient and mind boggling to try and understand. There will be delays, delays, delays at every turn. For full up type rated guys I think it will be a decent gig. For NTR guys prepare for copilot harassment and being smoked upon by the Chinese Captains and doing considerable deadheads.

For those of you not familiar with reality on this part of the world, Wyoming has laid it out how it is, no sugarcoating!
The apparently alluring offer of NTR transitions to A330, B777, B787 etc come with a steep cost.
Adding to the list of companies already mentioned it is the same with Hainan Airlines. Some of the boys coming from other types to transition to the A330 at Hainan have been through the pipeline for over 1.5 years. From delay to delay, make believe classes taught in Mandarin to clueless but despotic local instructors they have to go through it all.

In the end you will get the type rating, but be prepared to sell your soul to the devil and go through hell.

Such is not the case with those who come in type rated and with experience on type though, that's a different deal.

Bond
 

Below from Parc administration:

Every Captain undergoing transition training must have a bond of USD22,00 in place. This bond is to cover the cost of the transition training. Should any Captain fail to complete at least two years of service with CSA a portion of the bond will be paid to CSA. Please see below the exact amounts
· Less than 6 months worked – 22,000USD paid to CSA
· More than 6 months worked but less than 12 months worked – 19,000USD paid to CSA
· More than 12months worked but less than 18 months worked– 16,000USD paid to CSA
· More than 18 months but less than 24 months worked – 13,000USD paid to CSA

The bond must be in place before the captain comes on contract and expires after 2 years.:bored:

Stay away from PARC ... Sinple solution
 

None of the other agencies as yet are doing this ... So dont go with Parc.. Problem solved... It doesnt mean you wont owe your agent if you leave early ..but as you get paid in arrears the risk to them is minor... Vote with your feet and go elsewhere guys ..

Wja... current CSA 330 pilot!

Bond
 

It appears Rishworth and others are also required to apply a $20,000 bond/bank guarantee for CSA NTR programs. Details are yet to be finalized but I don't imagine this will help their recruiting efforts. If we all refuse to commit to a training bond, this idea will fall flat on its face. :ok:

Longreach do not require a bond. If you leave then they will hold your pay and the agency will chase you for the remainder if there is any.

Hey Woodja51

Have you heard anything about the progress of the YVR base and the 787 service planned for there?

Best Regards

WJAP

I agree with a lot of the things you have to say about China Wyomingpilot but just for your info I start a 787 class Dec 5th.

4 holer
 

Were you NTR or B777 rated and doing the transition to B787?

4Holer

do you have any feedback regarding the CAAC ride.
please feel free to PM or to post here for all to gain from.

Which base are you going to be rostered from.

WJP

Interviewed for 744 position but was offered 787/777 when they decided not to hired anymore 744 guys. I have opted for the LHR reverse scheduling program but remains to be seen how that will work.

4holer,
Thanks for all the info. Nice to hear somebody NTR actually starting the course.
As a matter of interest, is there anything written in your contract about the reverse scheduling option you have 'chosen' or is that just something that will happen when they have enough people to roster it?

Im also waiting for the CAAC sim ride so all info is much appreciated.

Kind regards for now :)

Yes I have a reverse scheduling clause in the contract but it is a little vague. Also for interest sake, I have no bond requirement but my contract states that the company will pay the transition costs and there are penalties for leaving early.

'A bit vague' :-) Well thats already more than i had expected:8

Good news re the bond as well.
There is a lot mentioned in this thread about NTR going in as cruise captains which has yet to be confirmed either way. Anything about that in the contract or maybe you have some info on that from the inside as you are so close to starting?

Many thanks again. Hope to see you down there soon

No cruise Captain mentioned. Just states that I will carry out the duties of a Boeing Captain.

Thanks 4holer for all the info.

I'm also waiting for the CAAC Sim ride, so any info regarding that would be greatly appreciated. Is the CAAC Sim ride the laststage?

4holer
 

Many thanks for all the information.
Much appreciated by myself and im sure many others.

All the best for your course in December.

Best regards :ok:

Heard the last 7 guys in the sim had two get through (Boeing fleet).

Does "two get through" mean only two passed the CAAC check or that only two successfully completed the Boeing NTR CSA training program?

.....or even '2 got through' the initial sim screening at interview with CSA??

2 got through the screening sim evaluation

Just an update for all you following. 787 course delayed until December 18th and now in Singapore.

4holer,
Thanks for the update. I can think of worse places though :ok:

Where was it 'before' if it has been moved? From what i understand, CSA dont have a 787 sim yet. Is that correct??

It was scheduled to be in Shanghai.

4 holer,

Did you get the option between the 777 and 787 or they just send you where they need you?

They gave me the option.

I still have to do the CAAC sim ride, but if successful, I would not know what to pick.

I like the B787 because it has LHR as a potential base, which is more convenient than FRA or AMS on the B777, although destinations and routes can change anytime. However I think the B777 would have more ways out if I was forced to change gigs in the future.

Also, as it is my understanding that we will always operate as part of a heavy crew with 2 full crews, I would think the B777 would be more comfortable for the relief sectors with the bunk beds on top, rather than the B787 which would be on first / business class, am I right?

Also I like the B777 cargo network, something that does not exist on the B787.

Any thoughts on this from the applicant crowd at CSA?

777..
 

Get thru the sim first then worry about it ... 24% overall process pass rate makes it entirely academic till then... After that ... Go the 777 for career path in the future ... The 787 is likely to come off LHR once the Brits relax the visa system to that of EU ... They want a bite of the Chinese tourist ( 150k to UK per year due to hard to get visas ) versus 1.1 mill to EU !!!

With slot limits the only choice is a 777 or more 380s , with perhaps an interim return to the 330 ...

See EK uses Five 380 s daily to LHR I think due this??!

Wja

Hi woodja,

I don't only have to pass the CAAC sim check yet, but most importantly decide if I'll take the job or not.

I'm still very concerned with the job not really being for PIC, and along with the fact that we have to give a bank guarantee for the 2 year bond makes me believe sometimes that we (the NTR ones) will be stock on some sort of cruise relief positions where we won't be able to log any PIC time and then be upgraded after the 2 years.

I've been explained by my agency that we will always be part of a double crew on long haul flights, which is fine. I'm not familiar with how these flights are logged, but I think the senior Chinese Captain will probably always be operating and logging PIC, and we will only be doing relief and logging P2 time, or whatever they call it.

I agree with you on the B777 choice. But, like you said, a lot of things must happen until that choice comes along...

The logging of time as told to me by guys currently on the job out of australia is shared 50 50 with the P1 (national captain) and the P2 other captain.

It is not a cruise relief position.

Every Second leg you will do the takeoff and the landing.

How you log the time when your not doing the takeoff or landing is up to you.

Its a 4 year contract not a two year contract and the company has been very good at ensuring that they want us there. If your base changes equipment they have even said that they will retrain you.

Yes TIC (this is china) ive read tons Ive spoken directly to many and Im aware of all the risks.. But I do believe that CSA is investing alot of money on this and they have many guys to take internally for a simple cruise relief captaincy...
ie draw from their own narrow body Captains?

Ive yet to decide on the job as well but am trying as hard as possible to simply look at the facts and now allow fear mongering into the equation.

WJP

I'm not thinking that the job will be purely as a cruise captain (which is normally done by an F/O anyway). But my concern is that if the Chinese Captain will always get designated as the PIC (and it appears that it will be so), we will not be able to log PIC even if acting as operating crew on every other leg, which I know we will be just to stay current anyway.

In short, I think you will make the captains salary as advertised, have four stripes in your uniform, be addressed as "Captain" by the company and takeoff and land from the left seat with an F/O on the right, but if you're never the PIC for the flight, I don't see how you can log PIC time even if seating at the controls.

I don't know the exact rules on this and I would love to know the facts, but it seems an obscure subject that no one likes to discuss clearly, not even CSA or the agencies.

But one thing is for sure, the fact that you will only operate as part of a heavy crew and never on a single leg with just an F/O, along with the required bank guarantee for 2 years, makes me think that you will only be designated PIC by the company on flights after 2 years have gone by.

And that, along with the western bases yet to be announced, scares me a little bit...

When its your leg to fly from the left seat can't you just start a new logbook page and sign as the PIC for that leg? Wouldn't that allow you to log PIC?

A quick read of the CAAC regs will show that anyone that sits in the left seat whether they are PIC, P2 or Cruise captain must be fully qualified as a capt and receive the same training. That will allow you to log PIC time. The only question is whether you can log PIC time when P2 and didn't command the aircraft for takeoff and landing. That is not addressed in the regs so ask the airline when you get there what their policy is.

WJAPilot,

How does that differ from you? Aren't you at present a 737 driver? Just keeping it real!!

Your statement sounds very niave. This group (Chinese) will promise you anything to get you on contract. A little research online will provide plenty of evidence why the Chinese CANNOT be trusted. Be prepared for plenty of promises but none will be delivered. If they say they will retrain you to the equipment that changes at your base have them put that in your contract. Let us all know how that works out. I have experience in SE Asia (although not China) and have former colleagues at CSA and they have either quit or are regretting their decision. Beware.

HSA.

You could not be further from the truth. The foreign guys presently in CS do not have any regrets. Good money, easy flying and CS do a great job when it comes to roster requests. We all have 1-3 weeks off over Xmas. I don't know of many other outfits that accept the resultant roster inefficiencies to give that.

Many of us do occasionally fly single crew domestic. I believe everyone logs everything as P1 but we are all older fellla's and don't give a crap about logbook hours anymore. Yes, the Chinese guy is PIC on international flights. The reason being is that he is Chinese and so are the cabin crew allowing better comms. Simple as that!

Flights are usually split in half so you do the TKOF or the LDG. Flights over about 12hrs are split 3 ways.

As mentioned earlier, don't worry about the details until you get accepted. My understanding is that the overall pass rate is around 10% presently.

Be aware that all the promised bases will only open if and when they get enough guys. I think the present number is 6.

Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions out there.

That sure as hell sounds like a cruise captain position to me...! Regardless of what the regulations permit you to write on your book or not, transferring to another job with those hours might be tricky since there are a few 777 contracts out there that won't accept P2 time as PIC. You guys can argue semantics all you want, but if you don't sign the book and are not listed on the nav log as the PIC then you are not the PIC:=

I have never flown in China and have never flown long-haul or anything that would require augmented / double crew so I have no clue as to what you can log as PIC on those flights.

My thinking (completely unconfirmed and probably wrong) was that only the PIC designated by CSA (the Chinese Captain) was able to log as PIC the entire flight, weather he is flying, sleeping, or moving his bowels.

It seems a bit awkward though, that I can log as PIC when I'm physically operating, even when the designated PIC for the flight (the Chinese Captain) is also logging while sleeping in the bunks. That would place 2 captains logging PIC for the same leg, which seems a bit contrary to my understanding of time logging.

Having said that, I can understand that CSA would initially place the restriction of always having to fly as part of a double crew during the first year or so to Captains like myself, who are non-rated, have never flown wide body or long-haul, are new to China and their ways and have never operated ETOPS, Cargo only acft, etc...

I'm just afraid that we get stuck in that status longer than desired / needed while the "advertised" bases get delayed and with a bank check in their hand that would make a potential move difficult if the promises and believes don't get delivered.

I'm waiting to read a draft contract for the job to see if I can clarify myself a little bit and see more beauties than threats for this gig...

I guess if you are so hung up on the logging of hours you must not have that many and are only concerned about building hours for the next job. You can have any of my 15000 , I don't think I need any more.

Fatbus,

I don't want any of your 15,000 hours, neither do I need sarcasm from skygods... :=

And YES, I'm concerned about the capacity to move on to the next job should my current one not please me to my satisfaction.