Korean Air-why are pilots bailing out?
 

Of late there seems to be a number of resignations from KAL. In Shenzhen, I talked to an ex-Korean B777 instructor who claimed that more are waiting on the wings to bail out. A number of expats too were rumored to be leaving soon.

There must be something brewing underneath; been warning ex-colleagues who seem to think that they stand a good chance if they head for SEL for their perpetual recruitment exercise.

To all those ex-KAL jockeys out there, how about contributing your knowledge and insights so that their prospective recruits can make better informed decisions?

Company's intransigence
 

Many local Korean pilots have applied to Mainland Chinese Airlines. KAL management have been stonewalling in all negotiations with regards to FTLs, pay reviews and per diem revisions.

Quite a number of expats have resigned too. I know of a former MD11, now B744 skipper who told flight admin to stuff it when they offered a reduced pay contract after 60. A number of A330 drivers are moving to Chinese Airlines too.

A few B777 skippers have bailed out recently. The working atmosphere in KAL can be very adverserial and toxic. Your psychological well being suffers and before you know it, your relationships with your loved ones nose dives.

Their travel benefits have deteriorated but still OK compared to other Asian carriers. Your off days are guaranteed and the pay is always on time. Some cheapos help themselves to the multiple meal coupons too.

Overall, not a gig for long term established airline pilots. Recommended as a short term foray for those on furlough.

Apart from agreeing with every point that you highlighted, I'm afraid you're no longer current with the above observation.
My pals still in KAL tell me that there is no more meal coupons, for cheapo or anyone else.
Still, your other tips are true. But hey, the bottom of the barrel that the agencies are scrapping now won't care, they will still flock there for a piece of kimchi despite any warnings from anyone. That's why now the arrogant manner of which management deals with the pilots. Foreigners can forget about any pay or even per diem adjustment, just take it and leave it. Oh one more thing, really glad that I quit before the onset of 3 pilot operations with one skipper stretching to 12 hours 30 mins, with factorized no overtime pay. Enjoy your ride boys.

From the MH 653 hijack thread,

A Malaysian B777 instructor has resigned and a few more may follow suit. Some Europe based pilots are also looking at Turkish Airlines. I was told that KAL is not too worried as they expect another down turn soon. They are in a real hurry to get rid of the aging B744 and also not exercising their additional A380 options as the dugong has proven to be a lumbering loser.

Are there expat instructors in KAL? I thought the only foreign trainers are the Boeing/Alteon instructors and checkers.

Who is he joining? EK or the other airline which we cannot talk about on Pprune?

Edtahi, so I heard...that mob we cannot talk about.

Ex-colleagues at AK & EK mentioned an ex-AirFarce C130 hero at KAL went to China but flung sim over there! Is he still as noisy as ever, maybe this episode would shut him up!

Things are good in the sandpit despite all the whining and bellyaching on the ME forum; mainly because we have a lot of riff raffs hauled way up above their station.

AK sources said changchanggchongchong went to mainland China for sim preemployment but terkandas. Noisy....ain't all Air farce fellas bellicose? A far cry from those grovelling days as eff-oh on the B734 with yes sir this and yesiree that! At one time even boasted he was the one to coach jimmy how to handled the sidestick when they were up in kimchiland training! If you run into him at KLIA, you should see the swagger as if he is in the super league... pathetic!

Ran into a Korean management pilot in BXB who was very impressed with his Balinese style house! I must really learn to brown nose and invite management Arab sheikh type to buka puasa at my house to impress! Then I can really go far, maybe A330 instructorship besides teaching jimmy cricket how to sidestick:ok:

From the " Firefly ATR argument in the flight deck " thread :

Was the busy body Korean Air Captain I.I who was to join Fire-fly sometime last year?

It's great to bail out at your own terms rather than be unceremoniously dumped when the crunch comes. The crunch is sure in the works. They have lost some 38% of their cargo business and Samsung has sworn off ever using KAL again for their quick shipping of electronics. The B744 boys are not likely to get their contracts renewed...there are many locals from the B744 clamouring to convert to the T-7.

The ever going rounds of recruitment on the B777 is an industrial ruse for tough bargaining with the flight crew union.

Many A330 pilots are looking to bail out to the likes of Hainan, China Southern, Air China, HKA and Air Asia X. A few had actually left, saved for that Malaysian alluded to in the earlier post...flunked at pre-employment and he is a boastful KAL A330 instructor at that! So much for the claimed high Korean Air standards!:ugh::ugh:

They lost quite a few from the A330 the last couple of years. The T & Cs have deteriorated, no thanks to many newcomers who abused the privileges accorded to the expats.

I heard that now even if your privilege travel seats are confirmed you can expect to be bumped off anytime without warning. If a Korean pax, unconfirmed and coming in at the very last minute shows up, your confirmed seat is at risk. KAL ground staff officers and managers can easily take away your seats at their whims and fancies.

I am sure many more are looking to jump ship. Once the Chinese airlines, and Turkish improve on their commuting arrangements, the flood gates will open.

What! No more free meal coupons? What are the foreign pilots going to do about breakfast, lunch and dinner? Can they now charge to Korean Air their meals at the Aussie fish & chips? Many are really hard up after the exes took them to the cleaners and they now have child support to deal with besides paying for their present step children too!:{:{:{

I was told by some former colleagues at KAL that the foreign pilots are still able to get free " western " meals at their flt ops office restaurants. Maybe no coupons, which is outdated. I heard the Koreans are very high tech, so now they just have to use their RFID company ID cards to get sumptuous meals.

It's like I always say...."I won't be impressed with technology until the day I can download food....".
How are their women?! The locals and/or the cabin crew..
Just a thought.

If you're thinking what we think you're thinking, forget about it. This is one of the worst airlines to work for in terms of crew interaction (Asiana being the worst). Let me sum it up for you, the cabin crew dont give a crap about foreigners, and they hate the local korean pilots. Some may argue that the younger ones are nice, but none will take the leap and risk being seen with you. Their arrogance is very well backed up by their overall ignorance and some times stupidity. As we know, how can you feel anything when you don't even know you're that dumb?
The job with Korean is now for the desperate, and yes, many are divorced and free meals are a big attraction for them on their budget.
Over here in China, the koreans pilots will find it no easier. ATC violation is a daily threat, suspension of license is not uncommon, watching what you eat, where you go is a must for for foreigners. The only good thing, the money is much better than Korean. I get to shorten my retirement plan by 1/3.

Cheapos? Hell Yes! I use company free laundry, meal and transportation all the times. And get reimbursed on taxi. Should I be paying out of my own wallet?

One thing to remember about KAL specifically and Asia in general is the peer pressure. The Korean women will not put themselves in a position to be ostracized by their peers(or seniors, as they call them). However, a colleague who is flying for a Middle Eastern carrier has some Korean cabin crew and to quote him "they are like rabbits as long as you give them a gift, and they really like Louis Vuitton bags". Does that spell it out for you?

Why doesn't Korean AL just treat pilots of all races with fairness, decency and respect? Is that too much to hope for?
That way most of their recruiting problems would be alleviated if not solved.

The fairness will never happen. The KAL Koreans are plain arrogant & nasty.
In their mind it is OK for a Korean to work anywhere in the world, however
in their own country, they will treat a foreigner like crap. Look at the flight
attendents. Rude & nasty. That is totally unlike the Korean women I've met
outside of Korean Air. So it's obvious that inside the airline, the nastiness is
promoted by some groups.
The ladies outside are still driven by money or gifts, but that's OK. They LOVE the slippery do-do.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/badteeth.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/thumbs.gif

Oh dear, looks like things ain't going well in kimchiland! Like someone wrote somewhere this character was on a roll despite his FOQA scare. He was taken off the roster ( I should know because I had to do his lousy short flights )
for sim retraining but miraculously reinstated years later in training. As someone said, golfing with the korean bosses did really helped. Good on him, the sandpit mob where he is going has a lot of his ilk and some of his ex-korean lackeys too.

There are expat instructors in line operations on all fleets ( sans the A380 ) KAL. Unfortunately some of the Malaysian ones have a bit of history. Aa had a FOQA event, underwent sim retraining and checks. So did " jose maria asnar " , Oh oh one had foqa event at ORD and a tire burst event ( pissing company off with an ATB ) and chg alan did an RTO due to config warning because of incorrect flaps setting, n t failed pc.......oddly the Koreans appoint them as LCPs! So I must put my money on golfing with Korean pilot bosses for training jobs!

To be fair, jm asnar also failed pc but was never offered training post again. The other chap was dumped out of training because he went against company directives to return to base due to a fuel leak problem. Oh oh one's atb was a screw up because of interference fom a pesky aussie poking his nose in on 121.5. All this to set the record straight.

Looks like the canucks are still at it, badmouthing the Malasyians. When I was still there at KAL I keep on hearing snide remarks from the canucks because the Malasyians were made instructors and they were not. Boo hoo!

The gentleman with the fuel leak problem resigned from training well before the incident. He told me he was resigning when he had to act as my copilot during the KAL pilot union strike. An alteon canuck connived to do him in after the fuel leak fiasco. Now I hope the record is set straight.

Just heard from pals still at KAL, " jose maria asnar " had been medically boarded out due to cardiac problems. Wishing luck and success in his future endeavors.

Looks like the canucks and ozzies are using others in their own turf and ego wars!:=

It has been always that way that some pesky expats use others for their agenda. The Aussies and Canucks have been passing rumors that the South African Captains were frauds with fraudulent credentials as captains. They forget that quite a number of Aussie and Canucks were confirmed con-men; no proof about the South Africans.

Ace, that's very true. It is unconscionable to use other unsuspecting people for your own selfish agenda.

There was an Aussie management chap who thought he could capitalize on the incident to earn brownie points of his own with KAL management. He suggested that the actual fuel leak scenario be used as the mainstay of the then fledging KAL LOFT simulator program. He had hoped to be the chief of training, to head that program as a matter of course. However the Alteon boys did not take kindly to using some heroic scenario not of their own and they killed the idea. One of the Alteon instructors confided in me the petty envy and jealousy that cropped up was incredible. Those unsavory going ons hastened his decision to retire. The pettiness and cattiness were unbelievable.

That poor sod became the target, to be " brought down " a few rungs to reflect his third world origin. He certainly had no idea then that his incident was used to further someone else's ambitions in the turf wars until much later.

Case of the " beware of sweet talkers bringing strange gifts " thingy?

Molokai....what are you smoking?

I suggest you guys stop bringing up the issue of the fuel leak LOFT scenario and the alteon thingy. Those fellas can be quite vindictive; a fellow aussie was also done in at about the same time. The poor sod is still there and he might be targetted again if you guys rouse up the wrath of those geriatrics.

The Koreans love to see the expats going at each other. Takes the spotlight off of them. Always amazes me how the expats will screw each other. The chairman at KAL has things just the way they want them: All of the pilot groups(expat, union, military) at each others throats. Telling on everyone like a bunch of schoolgirls. Need to remove the urinals in the toilets at KAL; the pilots must all squat to pee.

You guys are insolent! Geriatrics huh? The old and bold still have lots to contribute.

However there certainly are miscreants amongst those alteon blokes. Years ago, on the 744 there was a campaign against the South Africans!

Perhaps you all should get those Alteon blokes to read this thread :

http://www.pprune.org/flying-instruc...ck-airman.html

I am wondering who always looks into the "Chairmans Cristall ball" and knows what he really wants. Making profit and have significant market share, that is not illigal, everyone has a diffrent agenda.

Look into RYR and MOL he also makes profit and his Airplanes are not parked, market force works everywhere, supply and demand.

The cameradery was not that bad when I was there, we had good times in and around Seoul. We grouped up together until Summer 2003 and hit the street almost every evening. It became less after Sep. 2003 when we all moved to the Hyatt. Today I would not recommend that to anybody I know.

Next Generation is also coming in slowly, the third of the Cho´s. As everyhwere else: The third is the one who either makes the step up or the steep step down. Watch the place.

What an idiot! I wouldn't want to be there another minute more if I were him. Why would any sane fella want to work in that f**ked up joint?:ugh:

Oh yes Blue Angel... the UAE is so superior. Problems abound at expat gigs the world over. All pilots are is fresh meat on seats at any of these carriers. You think it is any different in the Middle East...dream on.

College Degree
 

I am reading the Korean FO requirements for B737NG. Are they strict on the hours? I have total +1000, but not all on jet (+/- 750 jet). 737NG +300 is ok. But: what do they mean by "College or University Degree (minimum 2 years course)". What do they mean by "College" ??

This question at first glance is so outrageous that it has to be legitimate, the same as a university degree, the type of degree you will get when you graduate from places like this.....Université du Luxembourg - Home

Heard from some 744 skippers that KAL is arbitrarily not renewing their contracts despite having virtually no blemish on their records. And yet they are advertising for pilots everyday! Are they giving the message that they don't care the phuck about pilots, they can just get any for the dime on the market?...to hell with all the training costs, as long as one Korean or Alteon guy doesn't like your face, you are a goner!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Cocky arrogant sobs dobbed in by the various departmental staff...you're goners. Many eye are watching. The politicos are aware of the shenanigans of foreign pilots. Cruel? Maybe but cest le vie!