Jet Airways turned me down?????
 

JET terms and cond
I was just told from contract company that I would not be getting a contract for the ATR position, that the DCGA would not give security clearance because I did not have 2000 hours of PiC. I was offered the job at the interview and the contract company was advised I passed. The t&c that was given at the sim session and interview states a min of 3000 hrs w/total of 500 hrs as pic OR a total 2000 hrs pic with 100 hrs in command on type. I have over 4000 hrs with 1300 hrs PIC on ATR. Can anybody clarify, I was looking forward to the flying in India. No jobs in the states.

Sorry to hear that fahlguy. The DGCA can be quite capricious, and the airlines can't do anything about it. It sounds like they just changed the rules on em' mid-stroke as is often the case. The DGCA is very responsive to the Indian pilots' demands and their unions' wishes. THEY determine need for pilots, and what experience levels those pilots need, and apparently, it just went up for ATR captains. Unfortunately this would rule out a job with other Indian carriers as well.

I spent a year with Jet, and when I left they were paying expat ATR captains the same as 777 widebody guys as they were in such short supply. Kind of made me wish I was an ATR driver.

Keep your eyes peeled, there are other jobs out there, Asia, Africa, etc.

Yup! There are eventually going to be some Jet and Kingfisher pilots laid off (I'm not privy to any information; it's just common sense), and some are going to be ATR qualified Indian captains who will move from a jet to a turboprop. Hence the "shortage" of ATR folks will soon evaporate, along with the need for ATR qualified expats. That may well be the reason behind this.

(For that matter, the overall need for expats here will drop as well, which is why I'm circling around with the low fuel light on, looking for a place to land - although my company is taking good care of me).

Absolutely. This is not your doing. Keep your chin up and keep trying.

Then again, with a name like "FALL GUY", what do you expect? :):):):)



Me, too, until I'm between Kolkatta and Vizag in July at FL380, and listening to an ATR asking for deviations at FL160. Nope, nope ... I'll stay where I am ... ;)

Expats at Jetairways are being terminated. It is not fleet specific. The DGCA is not issuing FATA's for new joiners and will not be renewing them either. This means that all expats in India will be axed over time. It's due to political pressure and from the cadre of Indian pilots who have been for long complaining about the presence of the expat pilot. Most recently, was an article in Times of India where it was stated (incorrectly) that expats were making close to 10 laks a month and that expats were taking flying away from young Indian Co-pilots. How absurd? But it did the trick and Jet has fallen for it. The others won't be far behind. It does not make any difference if your airline has good folks etc and that your airline wants you. They can renew your contract-the DGCA will say NO.

So if you are an expat Capt in India, without trying to sound like John the Baptist (i.e the voice in the wilderness) this is the time to send out your CV and get a job elswhere. DO IT TODAY! It may take a few months to get a position. Explore all your options.

Best wishes to all.

Sorry to disappoint...just got my FATA renewed this week.:ok:
Don't know of a single expat FORCED out.

I'm sure there are some people in the DGCA that feel that way (I've met a couple!), but the numbers in the rank-and-file line pilots are pretty small, I think. An earlier poster used the word "capricious", which seems to be appropriate. I think the trend in a shrinking aviation economy would be to ease us (expats) out, but it's certainly not overwhelming yet. Much of the "pressure" is relieved by some of us moving on / out voluntarily, which has been happening since July. I can't say what's going on over at Jet - don't know anybody over there.

Interesting...
 

It would be very interesting, following the NGFellow "rationale", see what would happens to all Indians working in USA, EU, Asia etc should a recession turn them "surplus" and enough qualified nationals be available to fill all the places.
Globalization, it must be reminded, is a two way lane. Certainlly this is very unbalanced in favor of Indian workers, which may account some hundreds thousands working abroad for each expat working in India...
Just a thought.:E

I did hear from someone who was just hired by Jet. Sadly, this person along with a few others at Jet were called in the office to be told that their contracts were being terminated effective immediately. So there is some truth to NGfellows post. Spicejet has maintained the expat force thus far.
There is however a distinct difference. At Spicejet, expats are not paid while on leave (other than given a travel allowance). So the company can tell an expat to extend his leave (another word for being temporarily furloughed) and then call them back when needed assuming they want to come back. The expat force at Spicejet is quite small in comparison to Jet. I think we have around 70 expat Capts. On any given day usually 20-25 guys are on leave.
So the active (on payroll) expat force is around 45. The TOI article on the 26th is plagued with certain inaccuracies. For one it states that the expat pilots is taking flying away from young Indian pilots. The young Indian pilots are first-officers and occupy the right seat. The expat is a Capt and occupies the left seat. They don't affect each other in terms of hours flown. There was mention made of expat capts earning 10 lakhs while the Indians only earn 6 lakhs. Let me just say that in the 18 months I have been here I have never even come close to the amount given. Even on the months where I flew close to 120 hrs. It is true that the overall flying has dropped and we now fly around 60-65 hrs. The complaint about the expat making more now (15-20%) because of the strong dollar. Well, that is currently true, but what about when the expat was losing 15-20% when the dollar had dropped over the past 18 months? No one seemed too bothered then.

I think there will continue to be an opportunity for the expat Capt in India for a limited time and in limited quantities. As NG pointed out the airline might want you but the DGCA can squash that in an instant. It is quite probable that the DGCA will insist on all expats out by July 2010 regardless of the consequences to the airlines or they might put a maximum percentage value on the FATA's issued per airlines.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am :suspect:) but these fellows had just joined. Yes, they had signed a contract, but they weren't on line yet. Unfortunate, but a far cry from calling in an employee of long-standing and telling him he's history ...

Before it's all over we might see that sort of thing. My point is we aren't QUITE there yet.

The individual(s) I mentioned were new hires at JetAirways who were not on line as yet. I have no knowledge of long standing employees who have had their FATA or contract terminated. As Rotorhead has stated we are not quite there yet.

I couldn't agree with you more.It would be interesting to see the reaction in India once a similar move was made by the govts. of other countries.The Indian economy would crumble,that's for sure.

Hmmm, sorry for that Fahlguy :{
But there are ATR jobs in other nice parts of this planet don't be sad :ok:

It is going to be much more ¨fun¨ here in India next year. Is it true that KFA has to return some A320 due to unpaid leasing ?

Keep your hats in this strong wind, guys !

Emm...just to be ready..What do you guys think that will happen to us (me)..an Expat F/O.

I´m still flying here in India, and my FATA will expire in January.

Because if the Captains are facing problems...

I must say that I do not fly for Jet, KFA, Spice...Guess who´s mine? :}

Regards!

You can figure it out from the course of this thread, Joaquin, but again the operative word is CAPRICIOUS. I'd have a "Plan B" but you just never know - you might get it renewed. There's really no way to know in advance over here. Never a dull moment ... :ugh:

Well guys--John the Baptist here again. The Indian Govt has just announced that they WILL NOT be giving any ATF price reduction to the airlines. That will essentially put the nail on the coffin. If the struggling airlines cannot get ATF relief, then they will not break even. Airfares will remain high and load factors will drop.

Why this stance? My friends, it's all politics and remnants of a socialist government. The Govt wants to keep a "war chest" and by not reducing prices they will be able to do just that. Furthermore, the AirIndia lobby will have prevailed in strongarming the government to reduce the competition.
AI was never happy about privatization to begin with. They want to continue the status quo of years of inefficient operation with a monopply.

Goldman Saks in India will be laying off over 200 employees very soon. Other corporates will follow suit. Some will continue to point the finger at the expensive expat pilot as a contributing cause of the losses at the airlines. John Q Public will believe what they read and see on the news.

I will say this again. You don't have to leave right away. Just be ready to exercise other options. If you apply elsewhere now, you have a chance to be employed in the next 90 days. Another airline in the UK just shut down.
So there will be another 100 odd qualified NG pilots out there. Early bird gets the worm lads!

Do you mean another airline in "Europe" ( Sterling) as opposed to another airline in the UK? or have I missed yet more bad news ? :confused:

Yep--sorry I meant Sterling in Europe.

Hi fahlguy,

Cebu Pacific in the Philippines is in dire (and I do mean dire) need of ATR72 captains. Just do a search on this forum for Sam Avila, the airline's equipment chief pilot. He posted something a while back about needing captains. Your hours are more than the minimum required so he just might have you. I know of an expat (American, not Filipino-American) who is now training for the left seat. The pay may not be the same as India (or the US for that matter), but if you live in the Philippines you should be very comfortable. And what the hey, the Philippines is a great place to live in.:ok:

NG............
for some strange reason,I sense that you seem to hate the expat working in India............:oh:.....
Wonder why make it so obvious.......:ugh:

You have it wrong. I cannot possibly be one to hate the expat pilot in India, considering that I am an EXPAT and have been here almost 3 years! I am simply stating that this a a good time for many of us to explore other options. Perhaps you are not affected on the B777 as you are a TRE. I am truly happy for you and I wish you continued employment in India. As they say, the best time to look for a job is when you have one. Once unemployed the hours, days, months seem to drag, and somehow calls never get returned. With Jet laying off NG guys, Sterling shutting down, plus the US downturn there will be probably 200 plus NG guys looking for employment. Would you rather be in the front of the line or the back? It's all up to the individual to decide.

Just out of curiosity NG,how many 737NG drivers in Jet do you know of who have been laid off...?
This is an honest question......
Cause I know the NG is one of the hottest endorsements to brag about.....

I know of a few guys who have signed contracts. No one I know who is on line has been laid off as yet. If you don't consider someone who has a signed contract in hand an employee then you are right, none to date.

I know my signed contract did not begin until I stepped off the airplane and onto India soil.

At Spicejet your contract and pay begins the day you depart your home country assuming you were current/qualified. I think most of us will be ok here until our FATA's expire. After that, it all depends. NG's FATA my not be renewed as he is at the 3 year mark. The new DGCA ruling mentions the 3 year mark or July 2010 whichever comes first as the limit.

Nonetheless, NG brings out a valid point in that it does not hurt to consider all your options. Any kind of restructuring will have a trickle down effect.
If the B-777 or A-330/340 fleet is reduced, then the need for those guys will be lessened. The expats will be phased out, the Indians will be displaced to the B737NG, elimintaing B737 expats and displacing Indians to the ATR etc etc.

Most of us here enjoy the work we do here and the organizations we work for.
While we would like to stay here, there may be issues beyond our control that might cause us to have to look elsewhere in the future. No cause for panic. Just the reality of the situation. It is better not to be offered a contract rather than being given one, move your family here, and then being told that your contract has been terminated.

Nevrekar
 

Congrats on always bringing us factual, unbiased and clean information, resisting to unecessary emotionalisms.
Keep the good job, mate!:ok:

sorry pal.
 

i totally empathise wth u,but some numbers fr u. total indian unemployed CPL holders-1800. total cpl under issue at DGCA-900. total trainees abroad-over800. fit urself in that.

The unemployed CPL holder(s) are not in any way connected to expat Capts hired here. Expat Captains are not the cause of their unemployment. The CPL holders will be filling F/O slots. Until and unless Indian F/O's get the required hours and command, these slots will not open up. That won't happen for another 2-3 years for new joiners. The average expat Capt has probably 10,000 hrs or more. The CPL holder has 500 hrs or less usually. At Spicejet the minimum requirement for command is 2500 hrs. Even if the new joiner flies 1000 hrs/year it will take 2 year plus as a minimum. Accelerated command is being offered to Indian ATPL holders who wish to join Spicejet. Most of these guys have previous jet experience either from the military, other airline or corporate. After about 500 hrs with the company (non NG Capts) they are given a suitability check and then command training.

If you are an unemployed CPL try to get your hours by instructing, charter, etc etc if you can while overseas. Make yourself competitive. If you can afford to get a type rating etc do it. This cycle will not last forever. If you are committed to a career in aviation then make the sacrifice. You are fortunate that the Indian Govt is protective in that you will be given preferential hiring once things open up. Your competition will only be from other Indian CPL holders. Stand out from the crowd, get noticed, improve your qualifications, and you will be triumphant in the end.

Nevrekar,

you have mentioned that freshers (The Indian fresh CPL holders ie.) will need to somehow do things to stand out from the rest of the crowd.
What would be the best thing to do if one has some money to spare ?
Invest in an Instructor rating or a company a/c's type rating ?
Is'nt doing the TR a risky thing ?
Will the airlines give the candidate with a TR (on a foreign CPL) any preference over others with just an Indian CPL?
Any information/help/guidance on this would be much appreciated.

Regards,
Shanks

Build up your flight experience, preferably in multi-engine aircraft. Get all ratings (ATP). If you have funds then get a type rating on the aircraft that you might be interested in flying. Lets say you want to work for Kingfisher.
Then an A-320 or ATR would be the way to go. For Jet it might be the B737 or ATR. As far as helping out during selection, it all depends on who interviews you and how you do in the process as a whole. Certainly a guy with some diversified experience and a type rating on the A/C flown by the airline will carry some extra weight. Is it worth the investment? That is hard to tell. It definitely will not hurt you. When you have 50 guys applying for just a few slots competition will be very keen. Also don't forget to get all your Indian credentials up to speed as well.

Spicejet has just posted a quarterly loss of 198 million crores (USD 49 Million).
ATF costs were cited as the main cause of the loss which was 5 times the amount, same time last year.

I have been scratching my head trying to figure out why some decisions made either by the DGCA, airline or Govt are aimed at shooting themselves in the foot.

The Govt has announced no great relief in ATF prices. That is the biggest chunk of the airlines operating expenses. Furthermore as of today, majority of the airlines have decided not to pay travel agents any commissions. So travel agents have no incentive to book tickets on those airlines. They instead will be charging their own fees to book airline tickets. For the tech savy consumer, it might be a non-issue because they can go online and book their own tickets. But for the average Indian consumer it will be a different story. Their desire to fly will be lessened by the fact that in addition to higher fares, now they have to pay an extra fee to the travel agent. Many may choose not to do so.

Indian airlines unfortunately are expected to post the greatest losses globally.

shanx, to put things into perspective. upto 50 rated ATR F/o's and a similar about of A320 rated "indian" f/o's are currently ground by KF. it would be suicidal for you to go ahead and get your self a rating with just a CPL in hand. unless ofcourse you have an oil well in the back yard or something.

it seems a lot of people are doing a rating over their basic CPL without first converting their license to an Indian one. they think it's a short cut, but it's not going to get them anywhere.

the days of "Indian" F/o's flying on an FAA CPL with a A320 rating are long over ... companies are down sizing. the last thing they want to do is get a FATA for a low time time guy ...

Kingfisher Loses
 

As per todays Hindustan times Kingfisher posted losses of 1081 crore rupees (appox 216 m$ at 50 rs a $) since April 2008.

Rs 1,081 cr blow to Kingfisher- Hindustan Times

Wait till an airline here closes down.There will be many more.(Could be me too).I know of a guy who got a rating and has been grounded by KF.Do your instructors.Its bout 60 hours more.Build time finish ATPL.Things might get better who knows! Good Luck

thanks for the insight regd Kingfisher.

Well, Capt.Apache, I have a question regarding the 50 ATR/A320 rated guys grounded by kingfisher. Were they FO's who were flying actively or were they freshly rated pilots with zero hours on type ??

My next question ... When the airline starts recruiting again ... will they give any preference to these freshly rated guys over others with an Indian CPL and a self sponsored type rating on the ATR or A320 ??


Also, regarding the Indian FOs flying on an FAA licence in India ... the reason I asked about that is because I know 2 people who very recently joined an airline in India and are now flying on their FAA licence .. their FATA is valid till 2012.
Aparently, they have been asked to get their licence converted till then.

Is this something still done by the airlines on a case by case basis or is it because those guys knew some big/high person in the airline ??

Dear guys

The sequence for axing will be as follows:

1. Expat FO.
2. Indian FO with FATA expiring soon.
3,Trainees at any stage to freeze upgrades and indirectly Salary.
3. Expat Line Captain Subject to sufficient Indian Captains.
4. Just converted captain with option to move to other fleet viz 777 to ATR etc.
5, older Indian Captains Reduce the retirement age back to 60 (as the reason for extension no longer exists).
6. Surplus crew on the basis of Last in first out, to fit the existing strength of aircraft.


But being political in nature:=
1. Retirement age will NOT reduce,
2. Influential guys will NOT move back to fleets
But unfortunately EXPATS will be axed. not realising if and when required, they may not come again.
3. Prime Minister has requested industry not to lay off.

Hence:
SALARY CUT ONLY FOR PILOTS

HI Shanx.The guy I know of was a fresh CPL holder.Dont know bout the others.Until recently Jet Airways had been charging a fee of about 15 lakhs from new CPLs for a rating.Thats 7.5 upfront and another 7.5 in post dated checks.They were also charging 10 lakhs for ATR but that stopped due to shortage.Even if you do a rating now it really wont matter cause your checks are only valid for a certain period of time.If for example you do your check today and dont fly for another 12 months you have to do the whole simulator again.See here CIVIL AVIATION REQUIREMENTS See under Section 7 Series H Part 1 Renewal of expired license .That means the airline will have to pay for your training again which in todays market they will charge you.Moreover which rating would you do Airbus,Boeing Atr.If you ask me to choose I just wouldnt know.Today none of these look good but six months ago they were all amazing.So it depends on the market.Moreover if you do an an Airbus rating and you are getting a job on an ATR will you be willing to pay again or will you refuse the job
If you have not converted your license as yet please do that.ITs going to take more effort than an Airbus rating and it will be worth it if you want to fly here.Forget FATA Just convert your license.People who had a UK R/T know that it doesnt pay to fly in India on Foreign License validations.DGCA will change rules without warning and you will be in soup.
I know a lot of guys who waited a long time for a job about 12 years ago when some companies closed down here.Be prepared to wait.Its frustrating but if you keep your head down in your books you will be ready when oppurtunity knocks.

NEW DELHI: Jet Airways has terminated the services of 30-35 expat pilots. These are from its 737 fleet.

This decision was taken at a meeting on Wednesday between top Jet management and its owner Naresh Goyal. A Jet source who attended the meeting confirmed the development. ‘‘Yes, this is true. Four of these planes were grounded and we don't need so many expats.'' Asked if this was the beginning of a gradual easing out of expats from Jet, he replied, ‘‘Yes, we'll ease them out in future, depending on how many planes will be grounded.''

There was a report that about 100 expats were going to be axed. In a way they are probably doing some of these guys a favor in that they can get a head start on employment elsewhere. When the dust finally settles, they will hopefully be employed while the last ones out might find it hard to find something right away. Currently there are plenty of B737NG opportunities. Once FlyDubai starts there will be a few more opportunities.

This is a double edged sword. On the one hand it will help Indian expat pilots fly more (some of complained of low flying hours) but they will find that once the expats are gone there will be an erosion of their terms and conditions. Futhermore the image of JetAirways has been tarnished. Expats will think twice before coming back to Jet or any other airline in India based on what is happening. When the demand picks up they might find it hard to fill slots.

And guess what, Indian Capts will might be leaving as well for Middle-East airlines. What is the DGCA going to do then? Force Capts to stay on?
There is a 6month notice period required for joining an Indian airline. But none for joining a foreign carrier.

Well said Tida Bisa

Expats
 

Well you can ax the experienced expats and put some inexperienced Indian pilot in the seat....but there will be some smoking expensive holes in the ground.

Unfortunately India cave into the pressure and being politically and hire inexperienced pilots because they are Indian.

Unfortunately airplanes don't show the same kindness...........

Good Luck!!!!

:D:D:D