|
Philippine Air Lines A320 again in Runway excursion
This time - and what's new? - A philippine Air Lines A320 made a RWY excursion in Mindanao after LDG.
What's happening to their A320 crews? PAL plane partly skids off Shariff Kabunsuan runway - INQUIRER.net, Philippine News for Filipinos Seems to be the airport of Cotabato City. PAL plane partly skids off Shariff Kabunsuan runway By Edwin Fernandez Philippine Daily Inquirer First Posted 18:19:00 08/20/2008 COTABATO CITY—A Philippine Airlines Airbus A320 from Manila partly skidded off the runway after landing at the Awang airport in Shariff Kabunsuan province early afternoon Wednesday. None of the plane's 80 passengers were injured although many of them were thrown into panic. Major General Raymundo Ferrer, commander of the Army's 6th Infantry Division, said the plane which arrived at 2 p.m. was trying to turn around towards the tarmac area but its front tires slipped outside of the concrete runway and hit the soil. This he said caused the plane to halt abruptly. “The soil was quite soft so the tires got stuck," he said. “We were surprised the plane suddenly stopped at the other end of the runway, then we were told to disembark,” a passenger said. Ferrer said the incident could be due to pilot error. "The way I look here, the pilot miscalculated the space as he was turning back the aircraft,” he said. The airport's runway is shorter compared to other airports in Mindanao. |
PAL-"It's All About Experience."
And what an experience that must have been.:rolleyes: |
a bit of history..
CAPTAIN..
overbearing screaming eagle junior was part of the elite. handpicked from his class to teach in pal's prestigious flying school. after flying cross country to lingayen, he and the boys landed in omni one day with Q-tipped (bent) props. a new modification for their little Cessnas. blamed it on killer crosswinds blowing from the lingayen gulf they say. so from then on, it was forbidden for palav cessnas to land in that nice little airport. now the soft spots in cotabato. will wonderboy be able to do the great escape again in cotabato? killer runways with soft spots are unsafe. lets see what retired avp training daddy a.k.a screaming eagle can do for junior this time. FIRST OFFICER.. they all belong to A.O. 2000A.. all in the top 5 of the class.. tacloban.. butuan.. cotabato.. maybe something is terribly wrong. need i say more? |
319/320 incidents
The latest score is PAL=3, BUPAK= ZERO.:8
|
PAL = 3 Bupak= 0
Pal should start auditing their training as most of the 3 incidents are human factor related. From what I gather in the 747 most of the line instructor are first time captain in the equipment...they should start putting experienced instructor in the wide body we don't want any incident in these big whale...If the selection of your instructor is based on Bata-Bata system...accident of human error are not far from reality...A well trained pilot is a safe pilot...If training is expensive then incident like this comes with a price ( reputation, inconvinience, downtime, grounding, airport closure, investigation, chismis...etc.). Though accident can be prevented (Prevention is better than Cure). Pal should start looking into training...There must be something missing or something is wrong...Just a friendly advise:ok:...Safety should be our utmost Concern. |
scoring
Is there a race/contest here? Is there a need to gloat at the misfortune of a fellow pilot? What a race we really are? Tsk.. tsk.
|
Young one
Parsifal,
Nobody mentioned a feeling of happiness from what had happened. Nobody was gloating to their misfortune, if thats what you think. And was it misfortune? This Pilots were trained to do the right thing, would deviation from this set standards justify an UNEVENTFUL flight? or for this matter a TURN? I wouldnt personally say that they're unlucky, instead they have to accept ,that they were Wrong. An Airplane will not drive itself to something, but rather a Hand will bring it somewhere. If John Holmes is scoring it 3 to none, thats because he has facts in hand(based in History). Maybe Cebupac safety standards is at best compared to PAL right now. I suggest you read again the whole thread. Enjoy gaining your time, Cessna |
scoring pa rin
i have enough time already but still enjoying piling it, fyi. my point only is to be more kind in our remarks and not to be judgemental about what others had done. things like those could happen even to the best of us.
"none of us is better than all of us" |
Thanks Cessna
I never intended to gloat on other Pilot's misfortunes Parsifal...we all have bad days now and then.
I forgot to include the Unfortunate Bacolod overshoot it the 90's. So now the score is PAL=4, BUPAK = ZERO. Let's all fly safe and MAY THE SCORE NEVER ADD UP. |
Parsifal,
The Pilots did the mistake, but definitely fingers arent pointed at them( in my personal opinion , of course). But then again, they're with Philippine Airlines where Pilot culture affect compliance of SOPs and company policies. And theres no way PAL will accept fault from what had happen. We have to accept "bata-bata"still exist. Yourself is a kid of a Former PAL pilot, and the probability of you joining them in your Minimum time is most likely. Modesty aside you should accept this fact, for the truth is this is your hopeful thinking. So, dont be afraid to address your true feelings for such event. DONT try to be kind now, just because you like to appease them(PAL pilots reading this thread). It will not help you in your course to a successful career. Do you know why such event can happen to the BEST of the BEST you mentioned? BECAUSE, of that One moment in time that they let down their guard and deviated from the SOPs and Policies. Theres no Sharp Pilot, No Best Pilots around too, Only Standard Pilots and nothing more. If theres more than this, i have no idea what its called. Cessna |
PAL.....hmmm lucky again! Not one fatality (good thing) which means nothing will change (bad thing). Although maybe LT is a bit sick of paying for pilot's mistakes??? Naaaa I'm sure he can afford it.
silver_streak and John Holmes junior.... you must still be young because it wasn't all that long ago that BUPAK killed 104 people on a side of Mount Sumagaya. You ask why?.... mechanical failure???? NOPE. Bupak CRM. So does that make it a even? |
To Planestupid....Read the Title. It says 319/320 INCIDENTS.
|
TREND
I do not see the numbers as a score but a trend. Trend of incidents is a good forecast for a Major Accident.
CebPac has established a "system" as a countermeasure regarding this trend with their hard lesson on flight 5J-387. By the way, the PF was an ex-PAL and this was the only accident of CebPac. If the trend can not be corrected ASAP, I foresee a major disaster waiting to happen. This will add to their very very long list of accidents/incidents. (Ref: PAL Wikipedia) Maybe they can afford this to happen for the reason that they can even afford to lose many of their best and experienced pilots up to now. I see them often around the Globe. Somebody powerful enough must take action. Start with the people who are directly responsible but did not do anything to prevent it to happen as it happened again. Kicking ass right now is better than paying the direct and indirect cost of accident in the future. No Offense!!! |
"The latest score is PAL=3, BUPAK= ZERO."
:= it can happen to anyone of us . "Modesty aside, the most of us experienced ones have transferred out to other airlines." :yuk: and these incidents /accidents happened while you were there : Flight Designation Date Aircraft Location Description Casualties[59] N/A January 24, 1950 Douglas DC-3 Iloilo City The aircraft crashed en route to Mandurriao Airport. Fatalities: 4 N/A March 30, 1952 Douglas DC-3 Baguio CityLoakan Airport, crashed upon takeoff Fatalities: 10 N/A January 14, 1954 Douglas DC-6 Rome, Italy Crashed in Ciampino Airport while attempting to land in heavy turbulence, which led to an engine fire. Fatalities: 16 PR S26 November 23, 1960 Douglas DC-3 Manila Crashed in Mount Baco while en route to Manila due to poor weather conditions. Fatalities: 33 PR S85 December 22, 1960 Douglas DC-3 Cebu CityMactan-Cebu International Airport upon takeoff after a failure of the number one engine. Fatalities: 28 PR 984 March 2, 1963 Douglas DC-3 Davao City Crashed due to premature descent. Fatalities: 27 PR 946 February 21, 1964Douglas DC-3 Marawi City Crashed due to pilot error upon landing approach. Fatalities: 31 PR 785 June 29, 1966 Douglas DC-3 Sablayan, Occidental MindoroPR 345 February 28, 1967 Fokker F-27 Friendship Cebu City Crashed in Mactan-Cebu International Airport during landing due to an aft center of gravity condition resulting from improper loading. Fatalities: 12 PR 385 July 6, 1967Fokker F-27 Friendship Bacolod City Crashed into a mountain. Fatalities: 21 PR 158 September 12, 1969 BAC One-Eleven Antipolo City Crashed short on a hill upon landing approach. Fatalities: 45 PR 215 April 21, 1970 Hawker Siddeley HS 748 Manila Crashed in Nichols Field after a bomb exploded in the rear cargo section. Fatalities: 36 PR 463 November 28, 1972 Hawker Siddeley HS 748 Bislig City Bounced and swerved on landing. The nosegear, wings and propellers were severely damaged. None N/A February 3, 1975 Hawker Siddeley HS 748 ManilaNichols Field after a fire developed in the number two engine shortly after takeoff. It was also due to crew error in their inability to deal with a standard emergency. Fatalities: 33 PR 421 April 18, 1977 Douglas DC-8 Tokyo, Japan A DC-8-53 named "Champaca" (RP-C803) was written off after a landing accident at Haneda Airport. None PR 206 June 27, 1987 Hawker Siddeley HS 748 Itogon, Benguet Crashed in Mount Ugu, fifteen kilometers south of Loakan Airport in Baguio City, due to poor visibility. Fatalities: 50 N/A December 13, 1987 Short 360-300 Iligan City Crashed near Maria Cristina Airport. Fatalities: 15 N/A July 21, 1989 BAC One-Eleven Manila Crashed at Ninoy Aquino International AirportPR 143 May 11, 1990 Boeing 737-300Manila EI-BZG suffered an explosion in the center fuel tank near the terminal of Ninoy Aquino International Airport while preparing for takeoff. The fire and smoke engulfed the aircraft before it could be completely evacuated. The explosion was similar to what happened to the ill-fated TWA Flight 800 six years later. Fatalities: 8 PR 434 December 11, 1994 Boeing 747-200 Minami Daito, Okinawa, Japan A small bomb exploded underneath the seat (seat 26K) of Japanese businessman Haruki Ikegami. Ikegami died due to injuries sustained in the explosion, but none of the aircraft's other 293 passengers and crew were killed. The aircraft landed safely. Investigators later found that Ramzi Yousef planted the bomb there to test it out for a terrorist attack he was planning, Project Bojinka. The plan was foiled after an apartment fire in Manila led investigators to the laptop computer and disks containing the plan. Fatalities: 1 PR 137 March 22, 1998 Airbus A320 Bacolod City The aircraft overran the runway of Bacolod City Domestic Airport and crashed, plowing through homes near its end. Ground Fatalities: 3 The aircraft, with registration number PI-C270 and departing from Crashed in Crashed due to crew error, severe turbulence and strong gusty winds. Fatalities: 26 Crashed in when the aircraft overran the runway while landing, impacting several vehicles on an adjacent roadway. Ground Fatalities: 8 P.S, now , does that make it even? - NOT! |
updated score
I got dizzy counting it all up...
The latest score: A319/320 Incidents: PAL=4, BUPAK= 0 Fatal Incidents: PAL=18, BUPAK= 1 additionally...AIRPHIL =1 , ASIAN SPIRIT= 1 change topic na pls...:bored: |
Cessna 1052
There seem so much i could learn from you if only i could fly with you. But you are not obviously with PAL anymore so that seems remotely possible. We both agree that change should happen at PAL. But that change could be made only from the inside not from outside looking in. You could be that agent of change if you go back there and be an influence regardless of the presence of the assholes and bastards presently competing for the ass of Lucio. One could make a difference.
Fortunately or not, i am not a PAL kid but i have feelings for this Company. Afterall, it carries the name of my country. |
parsifal
I don't think any "sane" pilot would think of coming back to the Phils given the reason you gave. It just doesn't make it. Good luck to you all! :rolleyes: |
"Modesty aside, the most of us experienced ones have transferred out to other airlines. Pay standardization eventually got started or so we've heard, but it was too little too late.
In fairness, PAL's present generation of pilots are a promising batch. But the company has to live with needing to wait again before it again enjoys the level of experience it is supposed to have." I beg to disagree Wamba wamba. Looking back, the recent Tacloban and Butuan accidents were flown by very experienced captains. I tend to believe that the problem lies in culture and training. PAL pilots should quit believing they are the best pilots around and start reviewing the god important images of captains. Maybe if they start realizing this things will begin to turn around. The big boy in A320 training still feels like god with at least 2 runway excursions under his watch. And dreaming of a B777 post? Delicadeza is not alive and well in PAL. |
PAL
well said.....:);):Ochange will have to start from the Macho's themselves (go back to planet earth) from the CP A343/333 down to a few Line Pilots exposed to this mediocres
|
Command Responsibility
After the 5J-387 accident, the first one to be sacked by the "Big Boss" was the Director for Training, then followed by the VP then the CP. It all happened in few months time after the accident. All of them were Ex-PALers. This was how CebPac clearly defined "COMMAND RESPONSIBILITY."
A very strick Safety Audit was conducted to the Company by the FAA and ATO Inspectors as sanctioned by Malacanang. As a result, most of the Pilots were retrained in Flight Safety Academy in Miami, Florida. In addition to this was the voluminous compliances submitted by the company to both the FAA and ATO inspectors. This action has lifted the grounding of all the DC-9 Aircratfs. Pilots who completed their retraining were the first one to fly. This has started the Safety Culture in CebPac (not a "Macho Culture"). A part of the training for an FO was to shout a "Go-Around", if he feels unsafe and uncomfortable with the Captains' approach. It happened many times in the line in many occasions such as bad weather and unstabilized approach. It saves them much of the costly equipment and priceless lives. Do PAL really need another accident to happen in order to change their "people" and "culture" with the cost of Human Lives? My point of view is very simple and objective. It needs a change in the "LEADERSHIP". Who is the "Big Boss"? NO OFFENSE!!! |
Sense of responsibility
A good organization requires both good leadership and followership.
Command responsiblity is spawned by one's general good sense of responsibility. Among others, it involves recognizing one's obligations and not running away from it. "He also leads who follows" |
Change in the leadership and and he also leads who follows: great English, Skyhawker and parsifal.
Skyhawker, you seem to have a genuine desire for PAL to change. With the prescription to follow Cebu Pacific's formula. Maybe you can hop over there and teach the change :} |
On Leadership
Parsifal, your concept of "Leadership" is on the micro side which is applicable only to small unit/organization. My concept is "macro leadership", which is how to change a very large organization from a bad and dwindling to a good and profitable one. In short, how a Leader set the tone and direction.
Have you seen a very good organization devastated by a Weak Leader? It is the same thing that a very bad organization transformed by a Strong Leader. A good example is Malaysian Airlines. It is the Leader. Pack1, I do not have any plan to move at my present position at the moment though I feel that I am the "Big Boss" of my own organization with "much of the pay and less of the responsibility". My English is also not as good as what you may think of (ICAO Level 5) but good enough than those English Speaking countries who got Level 4. I have 6 years to enjoy my work and to improve my English.:) By the way, I know an IP who is good in many things. Good in English, good in speech, good in grammar, good in composition,and the most important thing is"good in connections". But he has a big problem on CRM that borders an incident or accident. He should have been better as an English Instructor.;) "It's All About Experience." No Offense!!! |
Skyhawker
There is this sinister prospect of war erupting anew in mindanao arising from the botched MOA on the BJE. There appear a vacuum in the political leadership of our land. I am strongly endorsing the prayer of Pack1 that you come back and provide us, hapless filipinos, your macro leadership. Please..
|
These move have solve Bupak problem and since then has established a good safety record . The Big Question is will PAL do the same thing...:confused:
|
A good example is Malaysian Airlines. It is the Leader.
Speaking of malaysians, there are quite a number of them lurking in PAL's offices. This seems to agree with the rumor that malaysians are actually running the operations of PAL. |
The Score
Scoring by team is an insufficient analytical tool if our intent is to find causes and institute reforms. Given the setting and the prevailing cultures, a score by initial training might be enlightening, if we were to agree that initial operating experience shapes the basic mindset. PAL AvSchool, PAFFS, AirLink and the other Gen Av sources, Flight Safety et al, all instill unique attitudes that their current team Training Departments try to modify with varying degrees of success.
One might find that just like Leadership Style (micro or macro, Lucio or Lance), the source of Initial Training has no statistical significance in accidents. Better to check the Ephemeris or the Tide Tables. Yes it can happen to anyone. |
skyhawker,
at times you remind me of miriam defensor santiago and her self-righteousness :} |
"Bato-Bato sa Langit Ang Tamaan..."
Well, I am very sorry guys if I have offended anyone on this thread but I do not have any intention of doing it.
It is the reason why I always want to be OBJECTIVE. Maybe there's a TRUTH in it. My CRM dictates that you may always correct me if you feel "unsafe" and "uncomfortable", but take heed, watch-out and learn if I am doing the right thing. I know when to speak and when to listen. But again and as always... NO OFFENSE!!! |
Pussy Cat
Skyhawker you are such a pussy!!
NO OFFENSE!!! Why do you apologise for everything you say? You might be right or might be wrong, but to apologise for your opinion is just f..k.ng sad. Pare, grow some balls!! But again and as always... NO OFFENSE!!! :E |
I remember from reading throught the threads of this forum, that some of the Filipino pilots are among the best known of aviation or ariline industry. So to be best known for your efforts, of course training is an issue. Therefore, I thought that maybe it's due to standard training of filipino FTOs, or ....?
|
Culture from the Crib
I agree with the posters that the culture at PAL seems to put the Capt on a pedestal. If you look at the topic closer, you will find that the root can be the environment way back at PAL Av School (seniority is everything!) and there again can be traced back to the Air Force roots where again...the higher ranking officer is God! Nobody dares to question the man with four stripes even in times of glaring stupidity. The situation is not unique to PAL. CAL and Garuda who have the same Air Force carry overs to a civilian airline, also have similar "zipped" FO problems.
The pinoy pilots seem to be good at diskarte in the event of adversities but we lose our edge due to the cockpit environment. We need to improve on voicing out our position when the four striper seems to be way off! I've been on the jumpseat of PAL, Cathay and a few other western airlines, you can tell a huge difference coz the FO's in the other airlines never hesitate to voice out or "query" the Capt if the three striper has the slightest discomfort on a situation. |
"Ang Tinamaan Ay Nagalit..."
Well, the TRUTH is really hurting. Not an OPINION but a FACT.
It is really nice that they know you as PLANESTUPID. It proves me RIGHT. NO OFFENSE!!! :) |
sensible post jens40202!
|
A wise man knows when to speak.
Openly prescribing solutions to another organization (that one doesn't belong to) and in the process extolling oneself and one's own organization as the answer to somebody else's problem, is, bordering on the miriam santiago antics. Calling out objectivity and bato bato sa langit antics are the least of them all. When we talk about other organization's problems, we are barking up the wrong tree. Our job is to straighten out our own. When being smart is the least of them all. |
When we talk about other organization's problems, we are barking up the wrong tree.
Our job is to straighten out our own. When being smart is the least of them all. How will the Organization know that there is a problem, if no one will bark? Do you rightfully accept that the problem is You? the last one, i must admit is the best thing you've said. |
does PAL only take locals or will it consider people like me (A320 trainer) with a JAA licence? Am looking for a short term contract somewhere.
|
barking
if the dogs do not bark or whimper, then they must be content with their condition or with the treatment they are receiving from their master.
to proclaim that you, on the outside, can see the problem of an organization and that one, from the inside, cannot see it and act on it is much too presumptous and insulting, to say the least, to those inside. i maintain that it is better to fight the maladies from within. so those of you with kind hearts and good intentions, please come over and lead the way or some ways. it is not that we, here, are lacking in that area. |
wow
this is a pissing contest if i ever saw one.
Its amazing how nice the 5j boys are to pal captains when 5j has problems, saying things like we are all brothers in the skies..but when an oportunity arrises .....like counting accidents...:=:= Parsifal said it best at the begining of this thread: what kind of race are we if we... the aviation industry is not a pissing contest nor is it a place to see who s got the bigger d..k!! Start acting like gentalmen, something 5j and pal expects from you, most of the people here arent even jet engine yet but think you can start pissing on Philippine airlines....with atitudes like that you'll never make it in the airline industry.. :ugh::ugh: |
On Information
"INFORMATION is a very powerful tool for a change." A credible information that is derived directly from the source is called A1.
Georgia lost the War from Russia but won the Battle thru INFORMATION (outside pressure). They show the war as it happened. Noli Me Tangere and El Filibusterismo started the Awakening that eventually sparks the Revolution. Jose Rizal while in Spain received vital information from his friends and felow martyrs in the Philippines. They were subjected to REPRISAL. Could you consider the PAL 4 incidents especially the one in Butuan as AWAKENING, and the FO's are the MARTYRS who fear REPRISAL due to a MACHO CULTURE? The only downside of "Information" is the "inability" to process it. Parsifal, my man, I am sure that you were also trained as a "Leader" but you might have forgotten your "basics" and this will refresh you. You do not need "reinforcement" right now for your company is doing good. You should have thanked Captain HL and Captain RB (Ex-PALers) on how they transformed CebPac to its current status. They were very instrumental for CebPac's SAFETY CULTURE. They were a BIG LOST from PAL but a GREAT GAIN from CebPac. Do you know why "Old Wine" is very "expensive" ? It tastes great as it gets old. It is the same thing for "Pilots", but, it is not all about "Flying". It's About Experience...:) Thought for today; "It is the WEAK who are CRUEL. GENTLENESS can only be expected from the STRONG." (Leo Rosten) NO OFFENSE!!! |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 11:16. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.