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-   -   Vietnam Airlines (info please) (https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/295663-vietnam-airlines-info-please.html)

ia1166 13th Apr 2018 22:45


Originally Posted by EagleA25 (Post 10117083)
What aa means it that you should start looking for greener pastures and take VNA as your last resort, if it is the last you have.
I agree with him, it is NOT a safe place to fly, and you need to have either a good lawyer or a thick skin here. And if you have thoughts about making this a career, it’s not a place to stay!
I hear somewhere they will change Fleet Managers (again); so everything will be happy-happy again, right?
The definition of insanity comes to mind...

I kinda feel for Cap. Son here; he’s good hearted but they put him in a crap position.
If you accept Instructor here, you WILL have political pressure to pass the sons of the management pilots, no matter how incompetent they are!

I was alluding more to follow the sop strictly. As is stated in many many fsrs that are issued by the company.

Read the sop and apply it. Why fly ap athr off. That is what the sim is for. I dont agree with practicing abnormal procedures in the real aircraft is the way forward, so i dont. Never have, never will. Unless required by training.

Use apprpriate automation at all times. Its there in writing. If you take everything off, then prang it, you may be poorly placed.

ia1166 13th Apr 2018 22:48


Originally Posted by ia1166 (Post 10117587)
I was alluding more to follow the sop strictly. As is stated in many many fsrs that are issued by the company. Also as captain you are tesponsible. As i said before with the static port incident.

Read the sop and apply it. Why fly ap athr off. That is what the sim is for.

And take over early maybe.

I was not alluding to what you said.

ia1166 13th Apr 2018 22:59


Originally Posted by ia1166 (Post 10117588)
And take over early maybe.

I was not alluding to what you said.

Honestly, if this was the uk the captain would be responsible too. They had a tail strike, with structural damage. Questions would be asked. Same with the dragon air 330 a little while back. The captain is responsible for the safe conduct of flight. End of story. Everything else is just mitigating circumstance. So maybe stop throwing mud around.

ia1166 13th Apr 2018 23:21


Originally Posted by VietJetPilot (Post 10114685)
Well, yesterday the company sent out its monthly Fleet Bulletin, or what I like to call, itís very own ďfreak-show-summaryĒ.
As a result of the incident ALL flight ops, including training flights, are allowed using A/T on, except of course when A/T is not available due to MEL; then their ďsafety conscienceĒ is not as important as on-time-performance. So, when the risk is requiered, it is allowed, but in normal operation a student, Captain or First Officer, are not getting the training requiered.
As this cost the job of an Expat Instructor who not only has been teaching at VNA for a VERY long time but I also highly respect for his skills as a mentor and teacher, I am especially disappointed in the managers as they are supposed to support their Instructors in cases like that and investigate what went wrong, not just apply blame, for it not happen again!
My question: who was the Sim-Instructor that signed the local First Officer off for line Training? Was he also fired? (I am saying HE because Vietnam has NO female instructors in aviation!).
Why was the severe lack of Manual flying skills not addressed at THAT stage already? Was it because he is the son of a management pilot (again)? Is it still ethically and culturally not right to critique a student early enough in training BEFORE he/she becomes a threat?
My point is, there is a SERIOUS problem with managing bad apples in this company, especially the local ones, but you, as an Expat, responsible for everything, are to sit quietly as this is not supposed to concern you!
As someone here said before, itís a corrupt circus that wonít change... :(


Actually the fcom states use appropriate automation at all times. Fd athr off is a required item in the opc/lpc. You can have 1 resit under caav regulations to fly this within perscribed limits. If you cant, you fail the sim and need additional sim training to correct.

The procedures are in place to train and correct in the sim. Not the aircraft.

Additionally, if you had an abnormal in the real aircraft that required manual flight, i would assume the skipper would take control and fly it, as the most experienced pilot. So the fo would not need to do this anyway. Thats why they are the fo. Low experience. Once they are experienced and have a demonstrated high ability, they get promoted. Thats the whole concept.

EagleA25 14th Apr 2018 01:16


Originally Posted by ia1166 (Post 10117616)
Actually the fcom states use appropriate automation at all times. Fd athr off is a required item in the opc/lpc. You can have 1 resit under caav regulations to fly this within perscribed limits. If you cant, you fail the sim and need additional sim training to correct.

The procedures are in place to train and correct in the sim. Not the aircraft.

Additionally, if you had an abnormal in the real aircraft that required manual flight, i would assume the skipper would take control and fly it, as the most experienced pilot. So the fo would not need to do this anyway. Thats why they are the fo. Low experience. Once they are experienced and have a demonstrated high ability, they get promoted. Thats the whole concept.

I might not quite get the part about the concept; in the Sim, manual flying, yes, Airplane, no; so if the A/T is inop, I should fly myself all day, or better, just reject the plane? I mean, worst thing in Sim I could bump my head, right? In real life... my job?
So, if we are at the whole ďneed everythingĒ concept, why are we flying into Tuy Hoa without Papi, approach or Runway lighting?
And since we are on following SOPís ďstrictlyĒ, very few follow Flaps 3, idle reverse and packs off T/Oís... I know because I keep getting weired looks on my FOís faces when I do it, just like when I do one-Engine Taxi-in and -out... any comments on that?

EagleA25 14th Apr 2018 01:28

On a different note: anyone hear anything about the two engine puff-puff from Vietjet in Da Nang?

ia1166 14th Apr 2018 01:57


Originally Posted by EagleA25 (Post 10117691)
I might not quite get the part about the concept; in the Sim, manual flying, yes, Airplane, no; so if the A/T is inop, I should fly myself all day, or better, just reject the plane? I mean, worst thing in Sim I could bump my head, right? In real life... my job?
So, if we are at the whole “need everything” concept, why are we flying into Tuy Hoa without Papi, approach or Runway lighting?
And since we are on following SOP’s “strictly”, very few follow Flaps 3, idle reverse and packs off T/O’s... I know because I keep getting weired looks on my FO’s faces when I do it, just like when I do one-Engine Taxi-in and -out... any comments on that?

Sure. flaps 3 pax off single engine taxi. All allowed under FCOM. All in VN airline specific sops. All at Captains discretion. Reverse use is covered under SOP. All at captains discretion. Personally i try not to do any of them unless there really is good reason for it. Life is hard enough when flying with cadets.

ATHR is recommended for all phases of flight. FCOM. No airline specific sop allowing captains to take it out to practice an abnormal situation. It was under training flight, but this was not a training flight. And its not now sadly. To me practicing an FCOM ABNORMAL in the real aircraft just doesn't make any sense. Anyway as a Captain you should be able to operate without ATHr as you should have the experience and ability. With FD and AP how hard can it be????

ATHR INOP is permitted under MEL. But NO AP, NO FD, NO ATHR would come under multiple associated MEL entries and would be a no dispatch condition. And i wouldn't be too keen to fly ATH INOP for more than 1 sector to recover to main base, and would then ask for another aircraft. Flying with it all off by choice is not permitted under FCOM, and is putting the aircraft in a NO DISPATCH condition. Do so and prang it? As the Captain you will be held accountable for sure. Anywhere in the world. Sorry but thats the case here.

As i said, there is a proper approved procedure in the LPC/OPC requirements to practice this condition. Under supervised and recorded conditions. There is a section on day1 for extra training at the discretion of the instructor. You should ask for extra training if you want some. It will be noted on the form and some other items will be marked as not flown due extra training given. On check day you will need to perform to required limits, or a resit or extra training will be noted.

There is no requirement to practice in the real aircraft.

I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.

ia1166 14th Apr 2018 02:02


Originally Posted by EagleA25 (Post 10117083)
What aa means it that you should start looking for greener pastures and take VNA as your last resort, if it is the last you have.
I agree with him, it is NOT a safe place to fly, and you need to have either a good lawyer or a thick skin here. And if you have thoughts about making this a career, itís not a place to stay!
I hear somewhere they will change Fleet Managers (again); so everything will be happy-happy again, right?
The definition of insanity comes to mind...

I kinda feel for Cap. Son here; heís good hearted but they put him in a crap position.
If you accept Instructor here, you WILL have political pressure to pass the sons of the management pilots, no matter how incompetent they are!

I have never been asked to pass someone. EVER. In over 14 years. Nor has anyone i know. EVER.

If i fail people, which i do, it has never been questioned.

bigbird 14th Apr 2018 06:53

I have to agree with all you said 1186. But I suspect it's all sorted by rostering before you get the candidate.
They roster the right TRE.......
Or if one of the favored one's find you on their training roster they "suddenly" go sick?

Arewerunning 14th Apr 2018 13:22

No auto thrust against FCOM? Hey dude, you
Must be smoking. I changed a couple of outfits in Europe recently and they all fly autopilot off / auto trust off...every single flight. Appropriate use of automations means...appropriate.

Originally Posted by ia1166 (Post 10117716)
Sure. flaps 3 pax off single engine taxi. All allowed under FCOM. All in VN airline specific sops. All at Captains discretion. Reverse use is covered under SOP. All at captains discretion. Personally i try not to do any of them unless there really is good reason for it. Life is hard enough when flying with cadets.

ATHR is recommended for all phases of flight. FCOM. No airline specific sop allowing captains to take it out to practice an abnormal situation. It was under training flight, but this was not a training flight. And its not now sadly. Not that i do it anyway. EVER. To me practicing an FCOM ABNORMAL in the real aircraft just doesn't make any sense. Anyway as a Captain you should be able to operate without ATHr as you should have the experience and ability. With FD and AP how hard can it be????

ATHR INOP is permitted under MEL. But NO AP, NO FD, NO ATHR would come under multiple associated MEL entries and would be a no dispatch condition. And i wouldn't be too keen to fly ATH INOP for more than 1 sector to recover to main base, and would then ask for another aircraft. Flying with it all off by choice is not permitted under FCOM, and is putting the aircraft in a NO DISPATCH condition. Do so and prang it? As the Captain you will be held accountable for sure. Anywhere in the world. Sorry but thats the case here.

As i said, there is a proper approved procedure in the LPC/OPC requirements to practice this condition. Under supervised and recorded conditions. There is a section on day1 for extra training at the discretion of the instructor. You should ask for extra training if you want some. It will be noted on the form and some other items will be marked as not flown due extra training given. On check day you will need to perform to required limits, or a resit or extra training will be noted.

There is no requirement to practice in the real aircraft.

I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.


EagleA25 15th Apr 2018 04:09


Originally Posted by Arewerunning (Post 10118273)
No auto thrust against FCOM? Hey dude, you
Must be smoking. I changed a couple of outfits in Europe recently and they all fly autopilot off / auto trust off...every single flight. Appropriate use of automations means...appropriate.

I remember reading LH and German wings have as SOP at 1000 ft the ATHR going off, always...
So yeah; Iím also calling Bullshit 🤣

EagleA25 15th Apr 2018 04:20


Originally Posted by ia1166 (Post 10117716)
...
I have never had anybody ask me for a some practice athr/fd off in the sim. Why not? Its easy to do and the best place to do it.

Of course they donít; everyone in VNA is scared shittless of the Expat-Instructors, especially the locals; the idea of having to follow SOP while using good airmanship is a little too much for many, here...
then, at the same time, MY most uncomfortable check-rides weíre all with locals... they just make sure you know from the get-go that they have authority... sad, wired culture... 🤦🏼*♂️

wingdeagle 15th Apr 2018 12:39


Originally Posted by EagleA25 (Post 10118775)
I remember reading LH and German wings have as SOP at 1000 ft the ATHR going off, always...
So yeah; I’m also calling Bullshit ��

Agree with Eagle. LH had three hard landings: two in Denver and one in Narita, which lead them to change the SOP and go manual thrust for landing.
I also understand, that at least United if not more US airlines follow the rule "autopilot off, ATHR off".
If one does not posses the basic skill of landing an airplane without auto thrust, than this person should consider another profession.

VietJetPilot 15th Apr 2018 14:59


Originally Posted by ia1166 (Post 10117716)

...
There is no requirement to practice in the real aircraft.
...

.

That is like the stupidest thing Iíve read all day...
Letís just recall Asiana 214: canít even do a VISUAL approach, let alone handfly... mixed with inadequate pride and cultural respect!

ia, all arguments I read from you are excuses for the laziness and inadecuacy to do your job properly; or is it simple fear to speak up? Has pleasing management become so much more important? In any form, you have become mediocre; and at least admit it to yourself!
The box will not solve critical thinking problems, itís the attitude to being able to think outside said box, that will. But sure, keep up the good work; the definition of insanity is doing the same and expecting different results; and the frequency of severe events is increasing! And as Na Instructor, YOU are part of the system.
If this was SO bad, and the FO was properly trained, why was no go-around initiates by the FO? You see, any FO should be able to replace a Captain if nesesary and even though does not have the experience, should at least have the skills to; we OWE that much to our customers! But in this airline, the skill level on the line deteriorates and hand-flying is almost seen as a crime... thanks to laziness being the motivator!

VietJetPilot 17th Apr 2018 10:57

Cat ate everyoneís tongue...?
Must have said something that either stung or was completely on target 🤦🏼*♂️

squarecrow 17th Apr 2018 21:06

More like a winde up Troll. End of.

pineteam 18th Apr 2018 05:50

Ia1166, what you say is scary and so wrong. I really hope you are trolling. You can’t be serious. You know you might have to fly in direct law in the real aircraft right? Happened in 2016 in my company.
Never praticsing raw data flights in the real aircraft is a recipe for disaster.
The fact you are saying you won’t accept to fly more than one sector with A/THR inop says it all. Surely it’s not ideal but would not be a problem if you were doing it in a regular basic. Noone can claim to be able to fly accurately an aircraft raw data by just training in the sim. Period.

Sunliner81 18th Apr 2018 12:43

It may be SOP to use full automation whenever possible. Doesnít mean you canít have a practice at raw data every now and then. Just donít F*CK it up when you do otherwise be prepared for BOTH crew to be called in because BOTH failed in their primary duties. Previous posts indicated unfair treatment to the Captain but at the end of the day he/she allowed the inexperienced FO to fly raw data and failed to correct when that FO went outside parameters. You are having a go at management for doing their jobs?

EagleA25 30th Apr 2018 01:55

Ups, we did it again...
 
Well, itís all over the News Channels... how the f**k did we manage this? Wrong Runway landing... great job!
Oh, please, explain how our superior training at VNA should have avoided this, because a Vice Minister of the Red Patty was on board... letís see how we didnít
follow SOPís strictly this time...

Ruzki 30th Apr 2018 06:07

It was all written
 
in less tha 1 year sice almost all expat FO some of the ready for upgrade where gently sent home:
2 runway excursion
1 tail strike
1 landing on a close/underconstruction work
(stradars of black listed company)
is that a coincidence?
maybe
think about that


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