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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 19:07   #1 (permalink)
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Sanya FIR communication procedures

Coming out of Hong Kong westbound:

I understand there is a need to call 15-20 minutes piror to entering PRC airspace. Is Hong Kong FIR considered to already be in PRC airspace? Is it expected and/or required to call ahead to Guangzhou or Sanya 15-20 minutes prior to entering their FIR when coming from VHHH airport (yes I have been attempting to do so, with mixed success)?

In regard to Sanya: There is a requirement on the enroute charts to call 5 minutes prior to entering their FIR. I understand this to apply regardless of where you are coming from, even from within the PRC (Guangzhou). What is the reason for this 5 minute call ahead? Is Hainan a Special Administrative region like Hong Kong?

Also, how can I determine the correct frequencies for these call aheads to Sanya? Often I get no response on the primary frequencies listed on the jeppessen enroute charts, and when I am handed off by Hong Kong westbound or Hanoi eastbound, the frequency I am issued is for an entirely different sector than the one I am flying into. I suppose I could just ask Hong Kong Radar for the correct frequency but given language barriers and frequency congestion I would prefer not to. At least the frequencies listed for the call aheads to Hong Kong are established and published on the charts clearly.

I have tried to research the answers in the jeppessen airway manual reference sections but haven't had success.

Thanks in advance for any help that can be offered. My employer is not very proactive in providing us with this sort of information and we are left to fend for ourselves.
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Old 3rd Sep 2017, 22:23   #2 (permalink)
 
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When you're flying a B-registered aircraft it seems no prior calls are needed.
Have flown into and out of China numerous times on a Chinese aircraft, and no one ever made these calls.
An N-reg however...
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 03:09   #3 (permalink)
 
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I have done numerous flights through that area in a Japanese registered aircraft. I have never called ahead to either Sanya or Guangzhou. I have heard some calling but have never done it and never had anyone question me about it.
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 07:41   #4 (permalink)
 
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Flown numerous times through that FIR on Vietnamese registered aircrafts, never done it and never been required to do so.
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 07:51   #5 (permalink)
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Interesting, thank you for your experiences. Unfortunately I fly USA registered aircraft and my company has been fined/penalized for not successfully making a call ahead to PRC in the past. I'm not sure which airway/FIR the problems occurred in, but of course now they are very emphatic about making sure we do it if the chart indicates the requirement.

I suppose all I can do if they won't answer is try 6 or 7 published frequencies and broadcast in the blind if no answer, to at least say we tried, similar to Kolkota on A599.
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 20:27   #6 (permalink)
swh

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Don't listen to the rubbish above, call ahead. China has introduced demerit points and fines. Most ATC units will hand you off early, but the responsibility is the PIC.

The reason for the call ahead is that the ATC units don't actually talk to each other, there is no flight strip passed from one FIR to the next, e.g. from Vietnam to Sanya. Have two radios turned up, one called ahead.

The requirements for contacting HKG are listed in the AIP
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/ENR/HK_ENR1.1.pdf

As for knowing what frequency to contact a ATC on each airway in China at the FIR, China has its eAIP and charts online as PDF files. The chart you want to look at is ERC 2 for Sanya which has the frequencies listed as a table in green for each route.
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Old 4th Sep 2017, 20:46   #7 (permalink)
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Thank you, the green tables do look helpful, although it's the same frequencies from the jeppessen, just listed in an easier to find format as far as I can tell. HF option is nicely laid out in the green tables on the ERC2 chart too.

The 3 minute call aheads to Hong Kong have been straightforward because they always answer, no problem there, same with Vientiane. With sanya and guangzhou I am not usually successful in getting a response when I first start calling 20 minutes out, but usually it works within 5-10 minutes of the FIR boundary. I start with the appropriate sector frequency then start calling other nearby sectors if no answer. It might be a VHF reception issue.

In regard to the reason, I was more curious about the reason for needing to call 5 minutes ahead to Sanya when coming from Guangzhou southwestbound, as I thought that within the PRC such a thing wouldn't be necessary, although it's just my curiosity. As long as the requirement is listed I will continue to comply as best I can.
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 04:30   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swh View Post
Don't listen to the rubbish above, call ahead. China has introduced demerit points and fines. Most ATC units will hand you off early, but the responsibility is the PIC.

The reason for the call ahead is that the ATC units don't actually talk to each other, there is no flight strip passed from one FIR to the next, e.g. from Vietnam to Sanya. Have two radios turned up, one called ahead.

The requirements for contacting HKG are listed in the AIP
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/ENR/HK_ENR1.1.pdf

As for knowing what frequency to contact a ATC on each airway in China at the FIR, China has its eAIP and charts online as PDF files. The chart you want to look at is ERC 2 for Sanya which has the frequencies listed as a table in green for each route.
Would not call it rubbish. I have been flying in Asia for 8 years and not once made the call and as far as I know no one else in my company has either. We are flying Japanese registered aircraft so not sure if that makes a difference.
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 06:55   #9 (permalink)
 
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Same as atldrvr, jrmyl etc and certainly never been made aware of 'demerit points'.

Every time I've ever called any of the Chinese agencies they've told me to report at the border, so I don't bother any more until I get there.

I shall continue using the same 'rubbish' as I have for the last 18 years flying to and from China.
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 10:38   #10 (permalink)
swh

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomPerson8008 View Post
In regard to the reason, I was more curious about the reason for needing to call 5 minutes ahead to Sanya when coming from Guangzhou southwestbound, as I thought that within the PRC such a thing wouldn't be necessary, although it's just my curiosity. As long as the requirement is listed I will continue to comply as best I can.
Without knowing the exact route you are after I don't know the answer. Sanya as a few unique things going on includes a few crossing route of unusual levels and directions, as well a being met by metric/imperial flight levels.

Only recently during on of the typhoons I heard Sanya go ballistic at a carrier that had not called in. and by the time they had made contact there was a loss of separation due to widespread weather deviations an aircraft coming in feet occupy two metric flight levels, they had the aircraft orbiting unable to move in any direction due to traffic. From what I could hear the crew seemed contrite but blissfully unaware that their weather deviation in the previous FIR had not transgress past the boundary into the Sanya FIR where the weather was getting worse.

I would say 98 times out of 100 I am getting handed off by 40 miles to the boundary for Sanya, that covers your 5 minutes. There are times however they forget or get busy, and then you know where the finger will be pointed. All I do is tell them the flight level and transponder code, they ask me then to report at the boundary. If I am offset due to weather deviation, I will contact them to get the deviation clearance before entering the airspace. I assume nothing in Asia.

Remember these controllers do not have flight strips being handed off from one FIR to the next, while the FIR is advised of your plan from the AFTN, they need to generate a flight strip (which maybe just electronic) for you before you enter their airspace. Then they can tag your transponder with your details so they have a flight block associated with your aircraft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atldrvr View Post
Would not call it rubbish. I have been flying in Asia for 8 years and not once made the call and as far as I know no one else in my company has either. We are flying Japanese registered aircraft so not sure if that makes a difference.
Thats great, good for you. A very large middle eastern carrier has been operating into China much longer than that and also thought they knew better. Last year the CAAC issued them demerit points and a fine. The fine was a token, around US$5000, the real killer was they were banned from adding any additional services to China for 6 months. They get more demerit points, that ban will get bigger.

If you are a business jet operators, they may simply refuse to allow entry into their airspace ever again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...dents-in-china


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fratemate View Post
Same as atldrvr, jrmyl etc and certainly never been made aware of 'demerit points'.
This is the "Administrative Procedure" only been in force for a little over a year. A few international carriers have been caught, a few local airlines, pilots grounded, ATC sacked, airports fined, and airlines being forced to stop expanding. And some business jets refused entry ever again.

https://fsop.caac.gov.cn/files/1411-...20Carriage.pdf
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Old 5th Sep 2017, 10:59   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swh View Post
Without knowing the exact route you are after I don't know the answer. Sanya as a few unique things going on includes a few crossing route of unusual levels and directions, as well a being met by metric/imperial flight levels.

Only recently during on of the typhoons I heard Sanya go ballistic at a carrier that had not called in. and by the time they had made contact there was a loss of separation due to widespread weather deviations an aircraft coming in feet occupy two metric flight levels, they had the aircraft orbiting unable to move in any direction due to traffic. From what I could hear the crew seemed contrite but blissfully unaware that their weather deviation in the previous FIR had not transgress past the boundary into the Sanya FIR where the weather was getting worse.

I would say 98 times out of 100 I am getting handed off by 40 miles to the boundary for Sanya, that covers your 5 minutes. There are times however they forget or get busy, and then you know where the finger will be pointed. All I do is tell them the flight level and transponder code, they ask me then to report at the boundary. If I am offset due to weather deviation, I will contact them to get the deviation clearance before entering the airspace. I assume nothing in Asia.

Remember these controllers do not have flight strips being handed off from one FIR to the next, while the FIR is advised of your plan from the AFTN, they need to generate a flight strip (which maybe just electronic) for you before you enter their airspace. Then they can tag your transponder with your details so they have a flight block associated with your aircraft.



Thats great, good for you. A very large middle eastern carrier has been operating into China much longer than that and also thought they knew better. Last year the CAAC issued them demerit points and a fine. The fine was a token, around US$5000, the real killer was they were banned from adding any additional services to China for 6 months. They get more demerit points, that ban will get bigger.

If you are a business jet operators, they may simply refuse to allow entry into their airspace ever again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...dents-in-china




This is the "Administrative Procedure" only been in force for a little over a year. A few international carriers have been caught, a few local airlines, pilots grounded, ATC sacked, airports fined, and airlines being forced to stop expanding. And some business jets refused entry ever again.

https://fsop.caac.gov.cn/files/1411-...20Carriage.pdf
Thanks, at the moment just doing BKK-HKG-BKK every night which is sometimes A202 from Hanoi through Sanya and Guangzhou FIRs to Hong Kong FIR and sometimes A1 from Hanoi through Sanya straight to Hong Kong, same on the reverse. Sanya is not usually bothering to change us to metric flight levels, granted we are passing through at around midnight and 4 AM local times. If we pass through Guangzhou they will usually issue a metric level.
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 05:23   #12 (permalink)
 
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As stated above , remind ATC @40/50 mile to the boundary should suffice.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 05:01   #13 (permalink)
 
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So far, Sanya doesn't seem to really care but...I have it marked down on my cheat sheet for certain frequently used routes. If you can't figure it out and don't have the frequency, ask the present ATC what the next frequency is. Seems to work. Just in case the government has an issue with the government of the country your airline is from and wanting to make an issue as they did with Emirates...just CYA and call when required.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 02:41   #14 (permalink)
 
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I like how the guy just screams "CALL AGAIN DONDA!!!"

He has zero f***s to give.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 03:17   #15 (permalink)
 
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Have operated in/out/through Sanya for over 25 years.Feel free to call them prior to entry to the FIR but they never seem interested until you actually arrive AT the entry point.130:2 is the most common frequency.Be ready for the usual "offset 3 miles romeo side" sometimes "lima side", whatever, local methods, who cares.Seems safe enough.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 02:32   #16 (permalink)
 
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They never seem to care too much , offset 3 R the usual.

HK on the other hand do appreciate the call into their FIR but cannot issue clearances whilst in mainland airspace
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 02:44   #17 (permalink)
 
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You need to call Sanya ATC early. 130.2 is your best bet.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 06:08   #18 (permalink)
 
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Simple!! Just ask the Current ATC Unit you are flying with that what frequency is Sanya/Guangzhou using at that particular time.
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