Employment opportunities outside Singapore
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Employment opportunities outside Singapore
Good day all,
I've been trawling through the forum to find any information I can get about Singaporean citizens finding work abroad with a CAAS CPL/IR, minimum hours and no rating.
Most snippets of information however, seem a little dated and hence, am posting this in hope for more current information pertaining to job opportunities abroad, be it instructing, bush flying, mail runs in any part of the world.
I don't expect prospects to be very optimistic, seeing how many reported unemployed pilots there are in the EU / US, etc. Getting a visa for work is as unlikely as finding work here.
Any information will be greatly appreciated!
I've been trawling through the forum to find any information I can get about Singaporean citizens finding work abroad with a CAAS CPL/IR, minimum hours and no rating.
Most snippets of information however, seem a little dated and hence, am posting this in hope for more current information pertaining to job opportunities abroad, be it instructing, bush flying, mail runs in any part of the world.
I don't expect prospects to be very optimistic, seeing how many reported unemployed pilots there are in the EU / US, etc. Getting a visa for work is as unlikely as finding work here.
Any information will be greatly appreciated!
There are a few Singaporeans flying in Indonesia with various airlines and Susi Air but they got in before the '250 hour on type' rule. Your best bet is to try the part 135 operators like Susi Air as the 250 hour rule doesn't apply to them. Other countries have strict labour laws that prevent non Citizens and non residents from working there so that leaves very few options. On the other hand, I've heard of Singaporeans getting a start at Tiger through contacts so being able to network is a key factor. Good luck.
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Originally Posted by Mark_SG
I've been trawling through the forum to find any information I can get about Singaporean citizens finding work abroad with a CAAS CPL/IR, minimum hours and no rating.
Originally Posted by Mark_SG
Most snippets of information however, seem a little dated and hence, am posting this in hope for more current information pertaining to job opportunities abroad, be it instructing, bush flying, mail runs in any part of the world.
1. Malaysia. Must be a Malaysian Citizen. Too many pilots
2. India. Must be Indian Nationals and too many pilots.
3. Thailand. Must be a Thai Citizen.
4. Vietnam. Must be a Vietnamese. No way to get in.
5. Hong Kong. Must be a Hong Kee to secure an interview.
6. Taiwan. Must be ROC Citizen.
7. Indonesia. Low timer might get in. Not easy as it used to be! Priority for Indonesians.
8. China. Mainlander Chinese get in easy!
Where can you go with CAAS IR?
Last edited by Droste; 6th Oct 2013 at 00:26.
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Singapore is applying the ICAO Article 32b of the annex for Singaporeans
"Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to
recognise, for the purpose of flight above its own territory,
certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its
nationals by another contracting State".
"Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to
recognise, for the purpose of flight above its own territory,
certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its
nationals by another contracting State".
Last edited by Nimas; 6th Oct 2013 at 04:04.
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Thank you all for your replies.
Droste, yes, that was what I was afraid of. I find it a little disheartening that the government here doesn't seem to be doing enough to protect jobs for the locals. If everyone else is doing the same, where does it leave the Singaporean pilots?
smiling monkey, I'm currently in university and I reckon getting into Tiger / Jetstar Asia's ab initio programmes without a degree would be pretty difficult. I'm hence exploring the alternative, which is to attain a CPL privately and find some way, any way, to build sufficient hours to be even considered by them. If this option is not viable, I'd probably complete university and then hope to get picked up by an airline into their ab initio programmes.
Nimas, I'm afraid I can't find any more information about that. Mind telling me more?
Droste, yes, that was what I was afraid of. I find it a little disheartening that the government here doesn't seem to be doing enough to protect jobs for the locals. If everyone else is doing the same, where does it leave the Singaporean pilots?
smiling monkey, I'm currently in university and I reckon getting into Tiger / Jetstar Asia's ab initio programmes without a degree would be pretty difficult. I'm hence exploring the alternative, which is to attain a CPL privately and find some way, any way, to build sufficient hours to be even considered by them. If this option is not viable, I'd probably complete university and then hope to get picked up by an airline into their ab initio programmes.
Nimas, I'm afraid I can't find any more information about that. Mind telling me more?
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Hi Mark.
The CAAS CPL/IR is just like any CPL/IR for that matter, the basic requirement for a flying job. The added advantage here is that you can get a job in Singapore if you are successful to be employed locally. Failing which, even with a CPL/IR, you will face employment issues overseas due to resident status and the lack of flying hours/experience and not because of the quality of the CAAS licence.
Will be good that you finish your bachelor degree 1st. This gives you a baseline in case the SG airline does not shortlist you or if you are in but "sway" and got terminated for whatever reasons. And you will also need to plan beyond flying if you can't fly for a living in the future.
For the ICAO annex I've posted, it is related to what Droste had linked in the flow chart with regards to Singaporeans converting to CAAS licence from a foreign state licence.
CAAS is exercising it's rights to refuse recognition of foreign licence by Singaporeans. That's my interpretation of the ICAO Annex.
Try the cadet or even the airforce route 1st. That should be Plan A. You can plan to get your flying qualification (Plan B) if Plan A fails BUT you shouldn't go ahead with A thinking you have a Plan B, you will lose focus.
Plan B is not for everyone. Financially and mentally, especially mentally..
The CAAS CPL/IR is just like any CPL/IR for that matter, the basic requirement for a flying job. The added advantage here is that you can get a job in Singapore if you are successful to be employed locally. Failing which, even with a CPL/IR, you will face employment issues overseas due to resident status and the lack of flying hours/experience and not because of the quality of the CAAS licence.
Will be good that you finish your bachelor degree 1st. This gives you a baseline in case the SG airline does not shortlist you or if you are in but "sway" and got terminated for whatever reasons. And you will also need to plan beyond flying if you can't fly for a living in the future.
For the ICAO annex I've posted, it is related to what Droste had linked in the flow chart with regards to Singaporeans converting to CAAS licence from a foreign state licence.
"Each contracting State reserves the right to refuse to
recognise, for the purpose of flight above its own territory,
certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its
nationals by another contracting State".
recognise, for the purpose of flight above its own territory,
certificates of competency and licenses granted to any of its
nationals by another contracting State".
Try the cadet or even the airforce route 1st. That should be Plan A. You can plan to get your flying qualification (Plan B) if Plan A fails BUT you shouldn't go ahead with A thinking you have a Plan B, you will lose focus.
Plan B is not for everyone. Financially and mentally, especially mentally..
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Ah, I see. Yes, I do plan on staying in university. If I happen to be accept by an airline I might consider dropping out.
The Air Force is a closed door unfortunately due to physical restrictions. I've exceeded the maximum height limit.
With regard to license conversion, I don't think I'd have much problem there because I probably would only go for a CAAS CPL.
The Air Force is a closed door unfortunately due to physical restrictions. I've exceeded the maximum height limit.
With regard to license conversion, I don't think I'd have much problem there because I probably would only go for a CAAS CPL.
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Read the thread: "Singaporean self-sponsored CPL..."
get an idea of how tough it is for these guys -even writing to the minister didn't help!
Some have taken the initiative and signed for exciting times at Susi just to get in the game [PNG mountain flying is great for SA]
My advice.. finish Uni then access your options.
Fact: Walk-in for interview with your degree,zero hours, but with lots of enthusiasm has shorter odds than even an FATPL,250hrs.
Wanna to know why? read the thread.
get an idea of how tough it is for these guys -even writing to the minister didn't help!
Some have taken the initiative and signed for exciting times at Susi just to get in the game [PNG mountain flying is great for SA]
My advice.. finish Uni then access your options.
Fact: Walk-in for interview with your degree,zero hours, but with lots of enthusiasm has shorter odds than even an FATPL,250hrs.
Wanna to know why? read the thread.
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When I was out training in Melbourne a few years back, ran into about 5 singaporeans who were training with several different uni programs, RMIT, and swinburne. As of today, they could'nt get jobs as pilots, because the Australians won't hire them as they cannot get the right to work in Australia, and back in singapore because the CAAS won't recognise their licenses. Yes, they have the options of joining Susi, or some P2F scheme, but sadly these guys ran out of money. One works at a car dealership, the other went back into his daddy's business, and the last one works at some crappy flight sim for kids place.
If you want to get a a flying job in singapore, it's a cadet program or the air force.
If you want to get a a flying job in singapore, it's a cadet program or the air force.
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The CPL/IR route is risky and fraught with obstacles outside of your control, compounded when you hold a licence of a country you have no right to live/work in.
I agree with the sentiments expressed here by many others: cadet scheme sponsored or otherwise, or the air force. For CPL/IR, be prepared to dig really deep when things do not work out.
I agree with the sentiments expressed here by many others: cadet scheme sponsored or otherwise, or the air force. For CPL/IR, be prepared to dig really deep when things do not work out.
Last edited by glideapproach; 9th Oct 2013 at 10:09.
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Originally Posted by CodyBlade
Read the thread: "Singaporean self-sponsored CPL..."
get an idea of how tough it is for these guys -even writing to the minister didn't help!
get an idea of how tough it is for these guys -even writing to the minister didn't help!
There are many poor Singaporeans holding foreign license who are unable to convert CAAS license and this gentleman (picture) is not doing job for local pilots/citizens. Can somebody (parents or wife or yourself) please send him continous reminder through facebook messaging [click]? Certainly must 'squeeze' him before GE 2016, so that he can feel that there is a huge pool of negelected local jobless pilots (including those who are unable to convert license). Otherwise, keeping silence is not going to help.
Originally Posted by wonderland
When I was out training in Melbourne a few years back, ran into about 5 singaporeans who were training with several different uni programs, RMIT, and swinburne. As of today, they could'nt get jobs as pilots, because the Australians won't hire them as they cannot get the right to work in Australia, and back in singapore because the CAAS won't recognise their licenses.
Singapore Government wants to be number one in the world and jobs must attract tip-top overseas researchers and attracting foreign investors. Thererfore, job employment for foreigners is must to sustain the economic labour growth and that is the price of being number 1 and a powerful A.S.E.A.N leader.
Nonetheless, other countries are willing to convert foreign license for their own citizens without much hassle. However, Singapore does not work that way in favouring their citizens. No wonder more Singaporeans fed-up with Government.
Originally Posted by wonderland
Yes, they have the options of joining Susi, or some P2F scheme, but sadly these guys ran out of money. One works at a car dealership, the other went back into his daddy's business, and the last one works at some crappy flight sim for kids place.
Being a Singapore Citizen is nothing special/outstanding comparing between a permanent resident or foreigner. Local pilot job opportunities are not protected for their own people.
Originally Posted by wonderland
If you want to get a a flying job in singapore, it's a cadet program or the air force.
Originally Posted by wonderland
The CPL/IR route is risky and fraught with obstacles outside of your control, compounded when you hold a licence of a country you have no right to live/work in.
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I know a few former SFC instructors (Australian nationals with CASA licenses) who were able to convert their licenses to the CAAS equivalent. They are now flying with Silk Air. So this suggests that it is possible to convert a CASA license to the CAAS but I guess there must be a stipulation on minimum hours before this is possible.
Is this correct? And if so, then what are the minimums?
Is this correct? And if so, then what are the minimums?
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A little research might do you some good
200 total time
10 hours night
35 hours multi
100 hours PIC (of which only 15 can be PICUS)
50 hours x-country (one 300NM flight)
40 hours instrument (5 can be sim)
That and 14 ATPL papers.
Just those I remember off the top of my head.
Conversion is entirely possible, but only if a local outfit is willing to sponsor your conversion.
Catch-22. Low chance of your resume making it pass the inbox without a CAAS license but the only way to get a CAAS conversion is to get pass the inbox.
200 total time
10 hours night
35 hours multi
100 hours PIC (of which only 15 can be PICUS)
50 hours x-country (one 300NM flight)
40 hours instrument (5 can be sim)
That and 14 ATPL papers.
Just those I remember off the top of my head.
Conversion is entirely possible, but only if a local outfit is willing to sponsor your conversion.
Catch-22. Low chance of your resume making it pass the inbox without a CAAS license but the only way to get a CAAS conversion is to get pass the inbox.
Last edited by mynameisjon; 10th Oct 2013 at 03:28.
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A little research might do you some good
That and 14 ATPL papers.
Just those I remember off the top of my head.
That and 14 ATPL papers.
Just those I remember off the top of my head.
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From the above document, On page chapter 12-6, section 16, you're exempted from the 14 ground theory examinations, except for Air Law, HPL and Performance if you meet the following stipulations;
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16: Notwithstanding 15, an applicant for a CPL(A) who does not meet any one of the following requirements shall be required to pass the theoretical knowledge examinations:
(a) At least 700 total flying hours as pilot of aeroplanes
(b) At least 200 hours as pilot in command of aeroplanes
(c) At least 10 hours flying cross country at night or by sole reference to instruments
---------
So, if you meet any of the above, then you don't need to do the ground theory exams except for those specified in paragraph 15 (Air Law, HPL and Performance).
And from section paragraph 15, you may be exempted from the Performance exam if you have more than 3000 hours of which 500 hours is on multi-crew type aircraft.
Which leaves only Air Law and HPL exams required for the conversion from a foreign ATPL to a CAAS ATPL, if you meet the above stipulations.
--------
16: Notwithstanding 15, an applicant for a CPL(A) who does not meet any one of the following requirements shall be required to pass the theoretical knowledge examinations:
(a) At least 700 total flying hours as pilot of aeroplanes
(b) At least 200 hours as pilot in command of aeroplanes
(c) At least 10 hours flying cross country at night or by sole reference to instruments
---------
So, if you meet any of the above, then you don't need to do the ground theory exams except for those specified in paragraph 15 (Air Law, HPL and Performance).
And from section paragraph 15, you may be exempted from the Performance exam if you have more than 3000 hours of which 500 hours is on multi-crew type aircraft.
Which leaves only Air Law and HPL exams required for the conversion from a foreign ATPL to a CAAS ATPL, if you meet the above stipulations.
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14 papers assumes you're in the situation most local guys who went the self sponsored route find themselves in. 200 hours and a CPL.
So I'd say just assumed you're gonna have to take 14 papers. Assume the worst and you'll always be prepared for whatever comes.
So I'd say just assumed you're gonna have to take 14 papers. Assume the worst and you'll always be prepared for whatever comes.
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14 papers assumes you're in the situation most local guys who went the self sponsored route find themselves in. 200 hours and a CPL.
The initial target for the original poster then is to aim to have 700 hours TT with 200 hours in command (of which 100 can be PIC/US) and 10 hours night or IFR cross-country, and from there, he can then narrow the type of operations he should be seeking.
A realistic possibility for the type of operation that such experience can be gained is in part 135 operations in places like Indonesia where some Singaporeans are already working (some are even in part 121 operations and others in 141).
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Originally Posted by training wheels
I know a few former SFC instructors (Australian nationals with CASA licenses) who were able to convert their licenses to the CAAS equivalent. They are now flying with Silk Air.
Originally Posted by training wheels
So this suggests that it is possible to convert a CASA license to the CAAS but I guess there must be a stipulation on minimum hours before this is possible. Is this correct? And if so, then what are the minimums?
I am sure everbody knows about the Australia's employment right typically in aviation industry. the Australian Government only allow the air-operator (in this case, Singapore Flying College), hires Australian or Aussie PR and they strictly do not issue work visa to anybody (including Singaporeans) to work as Flight Instructor. Isn't it great that the Australian Government is doing a good job to protect their local pilot employment?!
Anyway, the Aussie flight instructors in SFC are given 100% priority to join SIA/Silkair after they finished their contract. There are a few reasons why SFC did this.
For these Aussie flight instructors doing CAAS license conversion is a piece of cake. They are required to take CAAS Air Law plus a few papers and that's about it. They trained silkair/SIA cadets and meeting with the in-house examiner all the time, hence, it is extremely difficult for them to fail in license conversion. Furthermore, the in-house examiner has the authority to assess since he is highly paid by SFC. See chart [click].
For Singaporeans holding CASA license (or other foreign licenses) is a terrible nightmare to undergo license conversion. Any Singapore Citizen (and foreigner) is not allowed to convert their license unless a Singapore air-operator willing to hire him/her. On the other hand, Singapore air-operator only hire applicant holding CAAS license. This is a very good catch-22 example, whereby, how to expect an applicant to get hired without license converted?
I knew many Singaporeans holding foreign licenses with beautiful hours but it is tough for them to be employed by local air-operator. CAAS license conversion is a torturing, painful and expensive process (especially to Singaporeans holding foreign license). Singapore is the first and only country in the world that make it impossible for their own citizens to convert license. I suggest poor jobless Singaporean pilots should call "Gov't hotlines" , afterall they are being paid to solve problem.
There were a handful of pilots slipped through the net and license was successfully converted without meeting the CAAS minimums. For your case, self-funded to get CAAS license converted is very difficult.
Last edited by Droste; 10th Oct 2013 at 14:44.