Korean Air for expats
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OK San Pedro and Kilda. It has been some 14-15 years and most of the guys have moved on. In year 1999, two friends were recruited into KAL and were undergoing line training, so called OE training together with some 3 Malaysians. Unbeknownst tothem, it was actually a sham with them being set up to be culled at the final checks. I knew this because I was close to the local Korean managing VP of flight operations who was also on the MD-11 fleet. He confided in me that a rogue group instructors and checkers who had stong ties to the KMOT ( Korean Transport Ministry ) check airmen were planning to fail all the expat trainees at the final moment as a warning to prospective recruits.
One of the expat trainees was related to a close relative and my Korean MVP friend told me that he can only helped get rid of those rogue Korean instructors and checkers if he had very very good reasons to. Basically his hands were tied due to their MOT ties.
As it so happened, a new group of Malaysian pilot recruits came for their pre-employment checks and 95% were failed!! We latched onto this to see if we can get a volunteer amongst the Malaysians to stir up the recruitment agencies to force KAL and MOT to move against those rogues. We managed to contact an earlier successful Malaysian applicant to voluntarily sent some anonymous letter to one of the failees hoping that this must come to the attention of the pilot recruitment agencies with the proviso that he leave enough clues to let the finger point to him alone ( as a sacrificial scapegoat ) should the plan go pear shape. It was planned as such since he had not committed to signing up for KAL yet. So no aspersion can be cast on any of the then existing foreign pilot trainees.
To cut a long and complicated story ( the plan almost derailed when some overzealous Malaysian pilots failed to see through the highly convoluted scheme ) short, it was partly successful. The agencies put pressure on KAL and MOT, the KAL flight ops MVP was able to remove some of the rogue instructors. Our plan to have all of them removed failed, but the hard core ones were warned and the removal of some stalled their plans to cull those expats who were then in training...in the end all of them passed!
The MVP was able to help recruit scores more foreign pilots after that. However, the long arm of those rogue elements from the ROK Air Force academy 2 and the navy ensured that his tenure as MVP did not last long. He was toppled from that position a year later.
The rogue elements of the KAL local pilot force come mainly from the second Air Force Academy who have strong ties to their Aviation University and the MOT. I suppose they are now maintaining their influence and stranglehold. I may be wrong as I left almost a decade ago.
When dealing with the stubborn Korean psyche, one needs to be creative and brutal when need be. Someone need to take up the cudgel.
One of the expat trainees was related to a close relative and my Korean MVP friend told me that he can only helped get rid of those rogue Korean instructors and checkers if he had very very good reasons to. Basically his hands were tied due to their MOT ties.
As it so happened, a new group of Malaysian pilot recruits came for their pre-employment checks and 95% were failed!! We latched onto this to see if we can get a volunteer amongst the Malaysians to stir up the recruitment agencies to force KAL and MOT to move against those rogues. We managed to contact an earlier successful Malaysian applicant to voluntarily sent some anonymous letter to one of the failees hoping that this must come to the attention of the pilot recruitment agencies with the proviso that he leave enough clues to let the finger point to him alone ( as a sacrificial scapegoat ) should the plan go pear shape. It was planned as such since he had not committed to signing up for KAL yet. So no aspersion can be cast on any of the then existing foreign pilot trainees.
To cut a long and complicated story ( the plan almost derailed when some overzealous Malaysian pilots failed to see through the highly convoluted scheme ) short, it was partly successful. The agencies put pressure on KAL and MOT, the KAL flight ops MVP was able to remove some of the rogue instructors. Our plan to have all of them removed failed, but the hard core ones were warned and the removal of some stalled their plans to cull those expats who were then in training...in the end all of them passed!
The MVP was able to help recruit scores more foreign pilots after that. However, the long arm of those rogue elements from the ROK Air Force academy 2 and the navy ensured that his tenure as MVP did not last long. He was toppled from that position a year later.
The rogue elements of the KAL local pilot force come mainly from the second Air Force Academy who have strong ties to their Aviation University and the MOT. I suppose they are now maintaining their influence and stranglehold. I may be wrong as I left almost a decade ago.
When dealing with the stubborn Korean psyche, one needs to be creative and brutal when need be. Someone need to take up the cudgel.
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Hey Frenk, heard about it from an ex MD 11 guy who was formerly with Eastern. Were you guys co-conspirators
? Ha ha ha, he refused to elaborate because the protagonists were still in employ there in kimchiland.
The whole local Korean Air pilot group are losers with a lot of infighting. The Air Force Academy ones gripe about the Academy 2 guys surpassing them, the ex Navy pilots tried to sabotage some air force guys when the MVP was an ex-Navy guy. The ex-Army fella conspire with their cohorts at KCASA to do others in. The ex Jeju cadets were forever planning strikes or leaving KAL. The expats were the ones that get them to fight together! They only unite because of the expats!
? Ha ha ha, he refused to elaborate because the protagonists were still in employ there in kimchiland.The whole local Korean Air pilot group are losers with a lot of infighting. The Air Force Academy ones gripe about the Academy 2 guys surpassing them, the ex Navy pilots tried to sabotage some air force guys when the MVP was an ex-Navy guy. The ex-Army fella conspire with their cohorts at KCASA to do others in. The ex Jeju cadets were forever planning strikes or leaving KAL. The expats were the ones that get them to fight together! They only unite because of the expats!
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Frenk...interesting account. I like most of the Malaysian guys, very knowledgeable and easygoing especially loony loong! But I was always uneasy with the pipe smoking fella and that chap who can't speak proper English but try write volumes in his audit reports. So now it bears out that people in the sandpit are pissed with their mafia fast tracking the pipe smoking taliban type,my guts were right.
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Hello Frenk...my hubby is running into a bit of trouble now with some nasty ZlCPs whilst OE training up in SEL. Can you elaborate further on your stealthy contacts or ways to get the nasties to ease off? It has been a terrible 5 months for him to be holed up there only to be subjected to the crap dished up on almost every training sortie. Many thanks.
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Yelena, please check your pm in a week. I think the main protagonist is in employ with KAL and I need to clear up a few things before I can give you further advice. Be cool.
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And more
I got this new pearl. I could have written verbatim some of the statements myself. It's long but if you or someone you know is considering Korean Air, is worth reading. Things have not changed a bit.
All pilots: Re: Korean Air. Please forward this to your agencies as well as all other pilots on your email lists. My initial report to Korea Air is included in this email.
Dear Chairman CHO;
Thank you for your response. I respect your position and will not reply to you again unless you request it.
Forgive me for not knowing how to work within your “official channel”. I am not Korean. I am not familiar with the “Official Korean Air Channel” and will gladly submit this report according to your rules. If you are concerned about the future of Korean Air, please guide me.
I have submitted this report to many persons in the Korean Air Operations Department including T K Kang and Y D Lee and have not received a response. Therefore, I do not know if it reached your “official channel” or even if it reached the intended recipients. I am curious if these persons have informed you of my report. Are you aware of the problems?
Since I do not think you are receiving the truthful facts, I am only trying to make you aware that Korean Air is wasting a lot of money needlessly and is creating a very bad reputation with some of the world’s best pilots. I have received many, many, supportive emails and telephone calls regarding my report from other Korean Air pilots as well as from pilots at many other airlines from around the world. You can rest assured that in this “World Economy” news travels very fast, especially when I have thousands of email address. Professional pilots have an obligation to share their negative training experiences at other airlines in the interest of flight safety. Your airlines improper interpretation and application of Boeing procedures by substituting them with their own Korean Air “techniques” is NOT SAFE. As an example, you brought an Airbus representative to Incheon from Europe recently (in early 2008) to asses the destruction done to one of your Airbuses. I personally spoke that representative at Incheon. The cause was pilot error. The pilot did not apply the proper crosswind controls. His landing was so hard it destroyed the landing gear strut and wing spar. Luckily no one was killed. Crosswind controls is a basic and fundamental pilot skill. The lack of your pilot’s ability to recognize a crosswind in spite of what the ATIS said, is indicative of just one of the many shortfalls of your “training program”. It is also another good reason for hiring Foreign Captains with extensive flight experience to protect against loss of life and hull loss. As you know from past Korean Air history, accidents are very expensive. They will cause a loss of reputation and can bankrupt your company. One example of past bad press: Cho Yang-Ho, chairman and CEO, Korean Air - CNN.com
Additionally, poor treatment and unfair practices imposed by your airline upon the pilots is not forgotten. You should be VERY concerned, especially since you are Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Korean Air. It may be that your “official channels” are not telling you of these problems. They don’t want to loose their job. Since I have nothing to loose, I can tell you the truth.
As another example of your poor treatment, (see my report for other examples) Korean Air cheated me out of travel passes that were properly submitted during the term of my employment. A request for those passes was also sent to Korean Air by GAP Aviation. Your administration department refuses to issue them. I submitted my request for those passes in a timely manner during the term of my employment. I earned them. Please issue them.
If you don’t want to handle this yourself, maybe you could forward this to the “Official Korean Air Channel” for me. They will listen to you.
Very Sincerely,
From: CHO YANG HO [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 5:47 PM
To: (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)
Subject: RE: Korean Air/CASA conspiracy to keep the B-777 grounded
IF YOU ARE RIGHT,USE OFFICIAL CHANEL LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.
From: (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 12:11 AM
To: DDY
Subject: Korean Air/CASA conspiracy to keep the B-777 grounded
I tried to see you personally but you were busy. I spoke with the gentleman in the first office on the left in the Executive Offices on March 27, 2008. If you have not seen this, you need to. They are intentionally trying to stop you from flying the B-777 with foreign captains.
Date: April 18, 2008
Subject: CORRUPTION INVOLVING B-777 ‘TRAINING’ by a CASA GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL and/or KOREAN AIR.
To: President of Korean Air
This report is submitted to inform you of the corruption involving B-777 ‘training’ by Korean Air and/or a CASA government official. Please advise all B-777 pilot applicants to Korean Air that they have a very poor chance of passing a Korean Air check ride causing a blemish on their professional record.
Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class.
As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:
There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007 B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains. Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the class previous to ours didn’t succeed in making it through their check rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resumes. That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away your time and money. I have no doubt that they will simply say ‘[we] were not qualified’ and/or did not live up to Korean Air Standards or didn’t follow the POM/FOM. It is not true! Do not believe it. Here is why:
My credentials: I passed the Korean Air Law Test, the Korean Air Oral Exam, the Korean Air simulator check ride, the Korean Air ETOPS check ride, the recommendation ride and the CASA oral exam. I have never failed a check ride in 34 years of flying. I starting flying Gliders in 1974 and was flying C-130’s in the U.S. Air Force by 1976. I have flown for 34 years without accidents, incidents or any violations. I have received awards for flight safety including the Delta Air Lines 2005 Safety Award. I have been an instructor with thousands of hours of instructor time and I have been a Line Check Pilot. I have more than 15,000 hours of total flying experience. I have FAA ratings on the B-777; B-767; B-757; MD88; and L-382 (C-130). I am a graduate of one of the hardest academic schools in the world, the United States Air Force Academy. I was employed at Delta Air Lines, Inc. for over 21 years and have flown as Captain for 16 years (including Air Force).
New Hire Status: When Korean Air offered me a conditional job based upon obtaining the B-777 rating at my own expense, I paid for and received the B-777 rating from Boeing / Alteon in Seattle, Washington, USA. I passed all oral examinations and rating rides in the simulator at Boeing/Alteon in Seattle, Washington. Although it was a new type rating, I was highly qualified and have been a Captain on the B-767/ 757 for eight years and have over 7,000 hours of PIC time at Delta (much more if you include Air Force time). I started ground school class with Korean Air in Seoul, Korea on December 3, 2007 and started my Operational Experience (OE) training on February 11th 2008.
“No Notes” and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8 trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn’t understand him. It could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite line was “Do you understand!!?” in a booming voice. No, I didn’t understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn’t believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years! Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for frequencies, PA’s etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and flown with at Korean Air has told me they used their notes to learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34 years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while flying. The absurdity of his ‘no notes’ concept is - if they wanted us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the ‘Airport Analysis Charts’ in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change. It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to the ‘losing face’ issue). That difficult choice was only made after a lot of consultation.
Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting training class at Korean Air in order to assist them in getting a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new instructor ‘inspired’ constant changes to the techniques and “the script”. Even on my check ride.
The Final Check Ride:
I received my CASA Check ride by CASA Captain Hwang Sa Sik. He is a former senior Korean Air Captain.
Captain Choi Mu Yeol was the LCP in the right seat acting as First officer who was worried for his job. He did not support me throughout the flight or in the debriefing because he would certainly fail his next check ride if he spoke on my behalf. He therefore remained silent while CASA Captain Hwang talked. He apologized to me for not supporting me after CASA Hwang departed.
I contend that my check ride result was predetermined long before I left the ground. It was a hoax and a farce. The results had nothing to do with my performance. CASA Captain Hwang lied about the events. He fabricated the reasons for failing me on my check ride which I will discuss later in this report. As far as I am concerned I passed in every department. I have never failed a check ride in my life and this was no exception. I admit there were a few debriefing items (because it is impossible to do all Korean techniques), but absolutely nothing was unsafe and my landings we picture perfect smooth landings with cross winds. It is obvious that Captain Hwang, SA-SIK – a CASA government official, is intentionally failing foreign B-777 pilots on their check rides. He either has a personal agenda or is being instructed to fail us by someone at Korean Air. I think he is failing foreign pilots because he was a former Korean Air Captain himself. He either has a ‘bone to pick’ with Korean Air due to possible forced early retirement or is helping his union pilot friends at Korean Air by keeping the B-777’s grounded without foreign captains to fly them. Maybe he is just trying to ensure Korean Captains upgrade faster than Foreign Captains. I don’t know which answer is correct, but I would bet my career on the fact that the failure rate of domestic Korean Captains is nowhere close to the dismal failure rate of foreign Captains. I think Captain Hwang is intentionally countering the Korean Air’s President Jong-Hee Lee’s push to hire more foreign Captains. His dishonorable actions are both personal and political and foreign Captains are being caught in the middle as victims who spent precious time and money pursuing an unachievable dream with potentially dire consequences to their professional reputation. The check ride was a hoax and a farce. Korean Air is lending credibility to this farce by terminating the employment of the foreign Captains after not passing the CASA check ride. This treatment of Foreign Captains does not appear to be happening as often on any other fleet. Everyone else (in my class) on all EXCEPT the B-777 has passed their check ride – (They probably had other CASA officials as the check pilot).
Additional details of the check ride:
Prior to the check ride I had not been given any time for route study since my oral was less than 24 hours prior to flight. After passing my oral with a high score, CASA Capt Hwang requested my log book. He expressed that he wanted to confirm my hours. I told him I did not have my pilot log book in Korea (except for the Korean Air log book I had started) and offered to give him a letter the following day from Delta Air Lines, my former employer, which gave a break down of my flight time.
On the morning of my check ride I showed up 3 hours prior to push back time for route study. Captain Choi, the LCP, showed up VERY late and did not even know a check ride had been scheduled. I was frantic and only had 15 minutes to brief him before going to the aircraft for the ‘Joint Briefing’.
CASA Capt Hwang met us at the aircraft and requested my OE training record upon arrival. I also presented him with the copy of the letter from Delta Air Lines. (Early into the flight to Hong Kong, he actually took my OE training record from me and then proceeded to reference the FOM as he started writing. Apparently he needed help from the FOM and my OE training record in developing his reasons for failing me. It was too early in the check ride to start writing because at that point, nothing had happened.) It would be impossible for anyone to maintain an objective and neutral opinion after reading anyone’s OE training record. He is human and would become biased to look for past weaknesses - even if he saw you do everything right on your check ride. This biased process would never be allowed in most ICAO nations.
At the end of a very long day, according to CASA Captain HWANG SA SIK, a previous 30 year Korean Air Captain, I failed my check ride. I do not accept his appraisal and am insulted by his masquerade of fairness. His business card has the audacity to display “Trust Builder” in its title. This CASA official lied and exaggerated events regarding many of the events of my flight. Because of this action he is corrupt and is involved in an unknown personal agenda. Why did he do this? Maybe he was forced to retire from Korean Air at an early age and this is a grudge. Maybe he is still sympathetic to the union activities at Korean Air. Since everyone else on all the other fleets passed their check ride, the results of the B-777 are too unusual and suspicious to ignore. Statistically, if the check ride was a fair and unbiased evaluation, it would be impossible that most Foreign Captains fail the check ride from the same CASA Hwang. Grounding the B-777’s because there are not enough pilots to fly them is a more likely scenario and certain to make a statement. CASA Hwang graded me on techniques that he insisted were procedures. I will go into the details later in this report. As you know, there are no more second chances after your Operational Experience (OE) 12 + 4 sectors. There are no more training rides given and since there is only one CASA pilot giving the check rides on this aircraft, chances of a successful recheck would be infinitesimally small. Based on Korean Air past practice, most pilots have been fired after failing the check ride and attending the obligatory/compulsory meeting. Excellent pilots have been cheated by CASA and KOREAN Air and sent home after 4 months of extremely hard work. Needless to say, I was angry at the result but not shocked! I knew the chances of success were slim based on the statistical results of the previous two B-777 classes. You shouldn’t expect to pass if statistically only one in your class will make the grade. However, I have never failed a check ride in my 30 years of flying and in my opinion; this should have been no exception. I will admit it wasn't perfect by Korea Air Standards, but, as all of you know from your own experience, how could it be? Many standards are an unknown moving target. For instance, have you seen check ride criteria from CASA? Does it exist? If it does exist, does it live up to the farcical written English standard of the CASA Korean Air Law test? Could it be read and understood by the person taking the check ride? No standards were briefed to me by CASA and he certainly did not live up to mine. The pilot world should know of this corruption before wasting their time and effort in Korea.
In the spirit of trying to do my best, I tried to brief endlessly and never stopped saying "check" in meaningless fashion. In the end it didn’t count because CASA says I failed and that is all that matters in Korea. There were no safety issues on my check ride, although according to CASA he tried very hard to create some by making up a story about me turning on the wrong taxi way in Hong Kong (although I wrote the instructions down and it was verbally verified correct by the LCP in the right seat). I’ve been taxing for 34 years and even if it did happen, (which it did not), it would have been a NON-EVENT. There were no other airplanes on the taxiway and we were not involved with crossing any runways or creating a traffic conflict. He CREATED the story to fail me. He created even more stories that night AFTER my debriefing was finished in order to solidify his position in his report - which was written in Korean. I have no doubt he would have created more if needed. He harassed me from the minute I got into the cockpit in Incheon airport with questions (I had taken the oral less than 24 hours earlier - the calendar day prior) and even on several occasions commanded that I take certain action during the flight which I can't find in any book anywhere. I have been surprised on every KAL flight with something new and different so I took it all in stride hoping that at the end of the day he would still be reasonable and I would become a Korean Air pilot. I maintained my composure and temperament until the end of the check ride debriefing following the two flights. At the end of the day I was mistaken. Reason and sanity did not prevail.
CASA Hwang intentionally and selectively neglected standard procedures. He had total disregard for cockpit security by freely opening and closing the cockpit door in flight without following the established procedures in the FOM. He did not follow the security procedures briefed by me during the Joint Briefing. He also said we didn't have to put on our oxygen masks when going to the bathroom even though we were at FL 360. He said we could eat at the same time (which I didn’t), anyway, you get the picture. He followed the rules HE wanted to follow and disregarded those that didn't suit him. He violated MANY Korean Air procedures….. and then he had the nerve to grade ME poorly.
He fabricated the facts - blatantly lied, and even added things to my check ride form after he left the room. OE Chief Pilot Captain Kang met with me two days later and read to me the new items. For instance, I couldn’t believe that CASA Hwang had added that I didn’t do one of the checklists. Absolutely incredible! He had not mentioned that to me on the day of the check ride. I know for a fact that I called for every checklist. (I did call for the climb checklist 1000’ too early passing transition altitude (9000’ and climbing at 2500’/min out of Hong Kong), but it was NOT forgotten. I guess he must have realized that there wasn’t enough bad stuff on the original evaluation to justify failing me so he just added some more lies. I couldn’t read the form since it was in Korean. It wouldn’t matter anyway. I asked both CASA Captain Hwang and OE Chief Pilot Captain Kang for the voice tapes from the aircraft (if available), and Hong Kong ground control. They refused.
CASA Hwang summed it up best in the debriefing following my check ride. After I had objected to his statements that had no basis of truth he said: "They are true! I am CASA". Spoken loudly as if he were GOD.
Regarding techniques taught as “procedures”: On my check ride I learned of even more techniques that were taught as “procedures”. These were procedures that I had never heard of from my FIVE previous Korean Air instructors.
FATIGUE: CASA required me to do the walk around and the cockpit FMC preparation with no time for rest. It was a 12 hour day with me doing everything. EVERYTHING. Every minute was consumed with updating the heading bug or some other ‘make work’ event. It was not a test of knowledge or your ability to fly an aircraft safely. It was an ENDURANCE test. I am 56 years old. It would have been nice to have been able to relax for a few minutes and collect my thoughts as they were doing. Both CASA and the LCP had a break. No one works as hard as I worked - even on an ocean crossing your maximum on duty time is much less than 12 straight hours. The LCP did nothing too help. He didn’t even start the APU at the gate as though they were trying to catch me unprepared for push back. (I caught the omission). I had to command everything. I thought Boeing had designed this aircraft as a two pilot aircraft. It was designed and built to require two qualified pilots with the same objective to fly it. Not just a captain trying to do everything by himself while the other one was trying to resist and create an environment for mistakes. That would be mutiny. Was he briefed to do this by CASA or does he do this on every check ride? The conditions being created were unrealistic, unsafe and unfair. I have never had a check ride like this in my life anywhere. The goal of a check ride should be to fly safely to your destination and assess the pilot’s ability while doing it. I have been an instructor and check airman for more than 3000 hours. I learned very early in my career that as an instructor you can easily create a situation which could cause a pilot to fail his check just by distracting him from the task at hand. This is exactly what CASA Hwang was doing. This check ride was the most bizarre sham I have ever been through. It was not a legitimate evaluation.
SUMMARY: I have never studied so hard in all my life and come up so short on anyone’s performance expectations. I DON’T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS FLYING THE AIRCRAFT. My problems stem from having to learn new techniques that are being taught as procedures just to satisfy every new instructor. They are techniques that have nothing to do with operating an aircraft safely. I tried very hard. I stayed in my room studying for 4 months straight trying to learn method # 1—49 wrong ways. I didn’t watch TV, or party. All I did was study and chair fly. After the unfairness of my check ride I can only arrive at one conclusion. CASA and the operations department is part of the problem. I am not. Myself and the rest of my class that are no longer at Korean Air tried our best to be part of the solution. From my perspective, and the perspective of many others, you are risking your professional reputation by accepting a position at Korean Air.
Misc Notes:
· As a Delta pilot for 22 years, Korean Air procedures bear very little resemblance to Delta Procedures. They are completely different. Even their FOM and POM bears little resemblance. For instance, Delta Pilots only repeat critical changes to FMA status such as “LOC capture”, “Land 3” etc. and otherwise maintain a quiet sterile cockpit concept below 10,000’. The constant Korean Air callouts of FMA changes and constant cockpit response chatter such as “check” are a distraction from flying. This breaches the quiet cockpit concept and causes missed radio calls and jeopardize safety. There is entirely too much cockpit chatter below 10,000. This is a very big problem at Korean Air and a safety issue. I can hardly hear ATC instructions over the F/O’s chant of FMA changes and my required responses of saying “check”. It is very distracting.
· Fatigue. I worked too hard being required to do everything (alone) for a 12 hour day.
· Techniques taught as procedure: (Example: constant update of the heading bug – even to one degree.) You can’t be expected to know techniques without training.
· There is severely inadequate training at Korean Air. English instructors are needed.
· Needless callouts for everything imaginable. “Check” is overused and meaningless.
· Endless briefings of questionable value.
· Constant, needless ATIS updates.
· Required to MEMORIZE the POM, FOM, when it says in those books that the only memory items should be Recall items and limitations.
· Requiring the Captain to do the F/O job of loading the FMC and loading it with much more than required by Boeing - and then do the walk around as well. Doing the Captains job as well as the first officer’s job – what is the point of this?
· Not abiding by FOM cockpit security rules and regulations.
· Not abiding by FOM oxygen requirements when one pilot leaves the cockpit.
· Not abiding by FOM avoiding eating at the same time requirements.
· Treating every waypoint as compulsory.
· Korean Air spent time trying to build loyalty to their company with the initial indoctrination program and then caused distrust and even anger with the way we were treated in OE. All foreign Captains can see what is happening to these pilots. Poor treatment by Korean Air treatment instills mistrust and disdain in their workforce.
Blue Skies and good luck
Captain (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)
All pilots: Re: Korean Air. Please forward this to your agencies as well as all other pilots on your email lists. My initial report to Korea Air is included in this email.
Dear Chairman CHO;
Thank you for your response. I respect your position and will not reply to you again unless you request it.
Forgive me for not knowing how to work within your “official channel”. I am not Korean. I am not familiar with the “Official Korean Air Channel” and will gladly submit this report according to your rules. If you are concerned about the future of Korean Air, please guide me.
I have submitted this report to many persons in the Korean Air Operations Department including T K Kang and Y D Lee and have not received a response. Therefore, I do not know if it reached your “official channel” or even if it reached the intended recipients. I am curious if these persons have informed you of my report. Are you aware of the problems?
Since I do not think you are receiving the truthful facts, I am only trying to make you aware that Korean Air is wasting a lot of money needlessly and is creating a very bad reputation with some of the world’s best pilots. I have received many, many, supportive emails and telephone calls regarding my report from other Korean Air pilots as well as from pilots at many other airlines from around the world. You can rest assured that in this “World Economy” news travels very fast, especially when I have thousands of email address. Professional pilots have an obligation to share their negative training experiences at other airlines in the interest of flight safety. Your airlines improper interpretation and application of Boeing procedures by substituting them with their own Korean Air “techniques” is NOT SAFE. As an example, you brought an Airbus representative to Incheon from Europe recently (in early 2008) to asses the destruction done to one of your Airbuses. I personally spoke that representative at Incheon. The cause was pilot error. The pilot did not apply the proper crosswind controls. His landing was so hard it destroyed the landing gear strut and wing spar. Luckily no one was killed. Crosswind controls is a basic and fundamental pilot skill. The lack of your pilot’s ability to recognize a crosswind in spite of what the ATIS said, is indicative of just one of the many shortfalls of your “training program”. It is also another good reason for hiring Foreign Captains with extensive flight experience to protect against loss of life and hull loss. As you know from past Korean Air history, accidents are very expensive. They will cause a loss of reputation and can bankrupt your company. One example of past bad press: Cho Yang-Ho, chairman and CEO, Korean Air - CNN.com
Additionally, poor treatment and unfair practices imposed by your airline upon the pilots is not forgotten. You should be VERY concerned, especially since you are Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Korean Air. It may be that your “official channels” are not telling you of these problems. They don’t want to loose their job. Since I have nothing to loose, I can tell you the truth.
As another example of your poor treatment, (see my report for other examples) Korean Air cheated me out of travel passes that were properly submitted during the term of my employment. A request for those passes was also sent to Korean Air by GAP Aviation. Your administration department refuses to issue them. I submitted my request for those passes in a timely manner during the term of my employment. I earned them. Please issue them.
If you don’t want to handle this yourself, maybe you could forward this to the “Official Korean Air Channel” for me. They will listen to you.
Very Sincerely,
From: CHO YANG HO [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 5:47 PM
To: (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)
Subject: RE: Korean Air/CASA conspiracy to keep the B-777 grounded
IF YOU ARE RIGHT,USE OFFICIAL CHANEL LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.
From: (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 12:11 AM
To: DDY
Subject: Korean Air/CASA conspiracy to keep the B-777 grounded
I tried to see you personally but you were busy. I spoke with the gentleman in the first office on the left in the Executive Offices on March 27, 2008. If you have not seen this, you need to. They are intentionally trying to stop you from flying the B-777 with foreign captains.
Date: April 18, 2008
Subject: CORRUPTION INVOLVING B-777 ‘TRAINING’ by a CASA GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL and/or KOREAN AIR.
To: President of Korean Air
This report is submitted to inform you of the corruption involving B-777 ‘training’ by Korean Air and/or a CASA government official. Please advise all B-777 pilot applicants to Korean Air that they have a very poor chance of passing a Korean Air check ride causing a blemish on their professional record.
Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class.
As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:
There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007 B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains. Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the class previous to ours didn’t succeed in making it through their check rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resumes. That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away your time and money. I have no doubt that they will simply say ‘[we] were not qualified’ and/or did not live up to Korean Air Standards or didn’t follow the POM/FOM. It is not true! Do not believe it. Here is why:
My credentials: I passed the Korean Air Law Test, the Korean Air Oral Exam, the Korean Air simulator check ride, the Korean Air ETOPS check ride, the recommendation ride and the CASA oral exam. I have never failed a check ride in 34 years of flying. I starting flying Gliders in 1974 and was flying C-130’s in the U.S. Air Force by 1976. I have flown for 34 years without accidents, incidents or any violations. I have received awards for flight safety including the Delta Air Lines 2005 Safety Award. I have been an instructor with thousands of hours of instructor time and I have been a Line Check Pilot. I have more than 15,000 hours of total flying experience. I have FAA ratings on the B-777; B-767; B-757; MD88; and L-382 (C-130). I am a graduate of one of the hardest academic schools in the world, the United States Air Force Academy. I was employed at Delta Air Lines, Inc. for over 21 years and have flown as Captain for 16 years (including Air Force).
New Hire Status: When Korean Air offered me a conditional job based upon obtaining the B-777 rating at my own expense, I paid for and received the B-777 rating from Boeing / Alteon in Seattle, Washington, USA. I passed all oral examinations and rating rides in the simulator at Boeing/Alteon in Seattle, Washington. Although it was a new type rating, I was highly qualified and have been a Captain on the B-767/ 757 for eight years and have over 7,000 hours of PIC time at Delta (much more if you include Air Force time). I started ground school class with Korean Air in Seoul, Korea on December 3, 2007 and started my Operational Experience (OE) training on February 11th 2008.
“No Notes” and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8 trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn’t understand him. It could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite line was “Do you understand!!?” in a booming voice. No, I didn’t understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn’t believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years! Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for frequencies, PA’s etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and flown with at Korean Air has told me they used their notes to learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34 years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while flying. The absurdity of his ‘no notes’ concept is - if they wanted us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the ‘Airport Analysis Charts’ in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change. It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to the ‘losing face’ issue). That difficult choice was only made after a lot of consultation.
Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting training class at Korean Air in order to assist them in getting a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new instructor ‘inspired’ constant changes to the techniques and “the script”. Even on my check ride.
The Final Check Ride:
I received my CASA Check ride by CASA Captain Hwang Sa Sik. He is a former senior Korean Air Captain.
Captain Choi Mu Yeol was the LCP in the right seat acting as First officer who was worried for his job. He did not support me throughout the flight or in the debriefing because he would certainly fail his next check ride if he spoke on my behalf. He therefore remained silent while CASA Captain Hwang talked. He apologized to me for not supporting me after CASA Hwang departed.
I contend that my check ride result was predetermined long before I left the ground. It was a hoax and a farce. The results had nothing to do with my performance. CASA Captain Hwang lied about the events. He fabricated the reasons for failing me on my check ride which I will discuss later in this report. As far as I am concerned I passed in every department. I have never failed a check ride in my life and this was no exception. I admit there were a few debriefing items (because it is impossible to do all Korean techniques), but absolutely nothing was unsafe and my landings we picture perfect smooth landings with cross winds. It is obvious that Captain Hwang, SA-SIK – a CASA government official, is intentionally failing foreign B-777 pilots on their check rides. He either has a personal agenda or is being instructed to fail us by someone at Korean Air. I think he is failing foreign pilots because he was a former Korean Air Captain himself. He either has a ‘bone to pick’ with Korean Air due to possible forced early retirement or is helping his union pilot friends at Korean Air by keeping the B-777’s grounded without foreign captains to fly them. Maybe he is just trying to ensure Korean Captains upgrade faster than Foreign Captains. I don’t know which answer is correct, but I would bet my career on the fact that the failure rate of domestic Korean Captains is nowhere close to the dismal failure rate of foreign Captains. I think Captain Hwang is intentionally countering the Korean Air’s President Jong-Hee Lee’s push to hire more foreign Captains. His dishonorable actions are both personal and political and foreign Captains are being caught in the middle as victims who spent precious time and money pursuing an unachievable dream with potentially dire consequences to their professional reputation. The check ride was a hoax and a farce. Korean Air is lending credibility to this farce by terminating the employment of the foreign Captains after not passing the CASA check ride. This treatment of Foreign Captains does not appear to be happening as often on any other fleet. Everyone else (in my class) on all EXCEPT the B-777 has passed their check ride – (They probably had other CASA officials as the check pilot).
Additional details of the check ride:
Prior to the check ride I had not been given any time for route study since my oral was less than 24 hours prior to flight. After passing my oral with a high score, CASA Capt Hwang requested my log book. He expressed that he wanted to confirm my hours. I told him I did not have my pilot log book in Korea (except for the Korean Air log book I had started) and offered to give him a letter the following day from Delta Air Lines, my former employer, which gave a break down of my flight time.
On the morning of my check ride I showed up 3 hours prior to push back time for route study. Captain Choi, the LCP, showed up VERY late and did not even know a check ride had been scheduled. I was frantic and only had 15 minutes to brief him before going to the aircraft for the ‘Joint Briefing’.
CASA Capt Hwang met us at the aircraft and requested my OE training record upon arrival. I also presented him with the copy of the letter from Delta Air Lines. (Early into the flight to Hong Kong, he actually took my OE training record from me and then proceeded to reference the FOM as he started writing. Apparently he needed help from the FOM and my OE training record in developing his reasons for failing me. It was too early in the check ride to start writing because at that point, nothing had happened.) It would be impossible for anyone to maintain an objective and neutral opinion after reading anyone’s OE training record. He is human and would become biased to look for past weaknesses - even if he saw you do everything right on your check ride. This biased process would never be allowed in most ICAO nations.
At the end of a very long day, according to CASA Captain HWANG SA SIK, a previous 30 year Korean Air Captain, I failed my check ride. I do not accept his appraisal and am insulted by his masquerade of fairness. His business card has the audacity to display “Trust Builder” in its title. This CASA official lied and exaggerated events regarding many of the events of my flight. Because of this action he is corrupt and is involved in an unknown personal agenda. Why did he do this? Maybe he was forced to retire from Korean Air at an early age and this is a grudge. Maybe he is still sympathetic to the union activities at Korean Air. Since everyone else on all the other fleets passed their check ride, the results of the B-777 are too unusual and suspicious to ignore. Statistically, if the check ride was a fair and unbiased evaluation, it would be impossible that most Foreign Captains fail the check ride from the same CASA Hwang. Grounding the B-777’s because there are not enough pilots to fly them is a more likely scenario and certain to make a statement. CASA Hwang graded me on techniques that he insisted were procedures. I will go into the details later in this report. As you know, there are no more second chances after your Operational Experience (OE) 12 + 4 sectors. There are no more training rides given and since there is only one CASA pilot giving the check rides on this aircraft, chances of a successful recheck would be infinitesimally small. Based on Korean Air past practice, most pilots have been fired after failing the check ride and attending the obligatory/compulsory meeting. Excellent pilots have been cheated by CASA and KOREAN Air and sent home after 4 months of extremely hard work. Needless to say, I was angry at the result but not shocked! I knew the chances of success were slim based on the statistical results of the previous two B-777 classes. You shouldn’t expect to pass if statistically only one in your class will make the grade. However, I have never failed a check ride in my 30 years of flying and in my opinion; this should have been no exception. I will admit it wasn't perfect by Korea Air Standards, but, as all of you know from your own experience, how could it be? Many standards are an unknown moving target. For instance, have you seen check ride criteria from CASA? Does it exist? If it does exist, does it live up to the farcical written English standard of the CASA Korean Air Law test? Could it be read and understood by the person taking the check ride? No standards were briefed to me by CASA and he certainly did not live up to mine. The pilot world should know of this corruption before wasting their time and effort in Korea.
In the spirit of trying to do my best, I tried to brief endlessly and never stopped saying "check" in meaningless fashion. In the end it didn’t count because CASA says I failed and that is all that matters in Korea. There were no safety issues on my check ride, although according to CASA he tried very hard to create some by making up a story about me turning on the wrong taxi way in Hong Kong (although I wrote the instructions down and it was verbally verified correct by the LCP in the right seat). I’ve been taxing for 34 years and even if it did happen, (which it did not), it would have been a NON-EVENT. There were no other airplanes on the taxiway and we were not involved with crossing any runways or creating a traffic conflict. He CREATED the story to fail me. He created even more stories that night AFTER my debriefing was finished in order to solidify his position in his report - which was written in Korean. I have no doubt he would have created more if needed. He harassed me from the minute I got into the cockpit in Incheon airport with questions (I had taken the oral less than 24 hours earlier - the calendar day prior) and even on several occasions commanded that I take certain action during the flight which I can't find in any book anywhere. I have been surprised on every KAL flight with something new and different so I took it all in stride hoping that at the end of the day he would still be reasonable and I would become a Korean Air pilot. I maintained my composure and temperament until the end of the check ride debriefing following the two flights. At the end of the day I was mistaken. Reason and sanity did not prevail.
CASA Hwang intentionally and selectively neglected standard procedures. He had total disregard for cockpit security by freely opening and closing the cockpit door in flight without following the established procedures in the FOM. He did not follow the security procedures briefed by me during the Joint Briefing. He also said we didn't have to put on our oxygen masks when going to the bathroom even though we were at FL 360. He said we could eat at the same time (which I didn’t), anyway, you get the picture. He followed the rules HE wanted to follow and disregarded those that didn't suit him. He violated MANY Korean Air procedures….. and then he had the nerve to grade ME poorly.
He fabricated the facts - blatantly lied, and even added things to my check ride form after he left the room. OE Chief Pilot Captain Kang met with me two days later and read to me the new items. For instance, I couldn’t believe that CASA Hwang had added that I didn’t do one of the checklists. Absolutely incredible! He had not mentioned that to me on the day of the check ride. I know for a fact that I called for every checklist. (I did call for the climb checklist 1000’ too early passing transition altitude (9000’ and climbing at 2500’/min out of Hong Kong), but it was NOT forgotten. I guess he must have realized that there wasn’t enough bad stuff on the original evaluation to justify failing me so he just added some more lies. I couldn’t read the form since it was in Korean. It wouldn’t matter anyway. I asked both CASA Captain Hwang and OE Chief Pilot Captain Kang for the voice tapes from the aircraft (if available), and Hong Kong ground control. They refused.
CASA Hwang summed it up best in the debriefing following my check ride. After I had objected to his statements that had no basis of truth he said: "They are true! I am CASA". Spoken loudly as if he were GOD.
Regarding techniques taught as “procedures”: On my check ride I learned of even more techniques that were taught as “procedures”. These were procedures that I had never heard of from my FIVE previous Korean Air instructors.
FATIGUE: CASA required me to do the walk around and the cockpit FMC preparation with no time for rest. It was a 12 hour day with me doing everything. EVERYTHING. Every minute was consumed with updating the heading bug or some other ‘make work’ event. It was not a test of knowledge or your ability to fly an aircraft safely. It was an ENDURANCE test. I am 56 years old. It would have been nice to have been able to relax for a few minutes and collect my thoughts as they were doing. Both CASA and the LCP had a break. No one works as hard as I worked - even on an ocean crossing your maximum on duty time is much less than 12 straight hours. The LCP did nothing too help. He didn’t even start the APU at the gate as though they were trying to catch me unprepared for push back. (I caught the omission). I had to command everything. I thought Boeing had designed this aircraft as a two pilot aircraft. It was designed and built to require two qualified pilots with the same objective to fly it. Not just a captain trying to do everything by himself while the other one was trying to resist and create an environment for mistakes. That would be mutiny. Was he briefed to do this by CASA or does he do this on every check ride? The conditions being created were unrealistic, unsafe and unfair. I have never had a check ride like this in my life anywhere. The goal of a check ride should be to fly safely to your destination and assess the pilot’s ability while doing it. I have been an instructor and check airman for more than 3000 hours. I learned very early in my career that as an instructor you can easily create a situation which could cause a pilot to fail his check just by distracting him from the task at hand. This is exactly what CASA Hwang was doing. This check ride was the most bizarre sham I have ever been through. It was not a legitimate evaluation.
SUMMARY: I have never studied so hard in all my life and come up so short on anyone’s performance expectations. I DON’T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS FLYING THE AIRCRAFT. My problems stem from having to learn new techniques that are being taught as procedures just to satisfy every new instructor. They are techniques that have nothing to do with operating an aircraft safely. I tried very hard. I stayed in my room studying for 4 months straight trying to learn method # 1—49 wrong ways. I didn’t watch TV, or party. All I did was study and chair fly. After the unfairness of my check ride I can only arrive at one conclusion. CASA and the operations department is part of the problem. I am not. Myself and the rest of my class that are no longer at Korean Air tried our best to be part of the solution. From my perspective, and the perspective of many others, you are risking your professional reputation by accepting a position at Korean Air.
Misc Notes:
· As a Delta pilot for 22 years, Korean Air procedures bear very little resemblance to Delta Procedures. They are completely different. Even their FOM and POM bears little resemblance. For instance, Delta Pilots only repeat critical changes to FMA status such as “LOC capture”, “Land 3” etc. and otherwise maintain a quiet sterile cockpit concept below 10,000’. The constant Korean Air callouts of FMA changes and constant cockpit response chatter such as “check” are a distraction from flying. This breaches the quiet cockpit concept and causes missed radio calls and jeopardize safety. There is entirely too much cockpit chatter below 10,000. This is a very big problem at Korean Air and a safety issue. I can hardly hear ATC instructions over the F/O’s chant of FMA changes and my required responses of saying “check”. It is very distracting.
· Fatigue. I worked too hard being required to do everything (alone) for a 12 hour day.
· Techniques taught as procedure: (Example: constant update of the heading bug – even to one degree.) You can’t be expected to know techniques without training.
· There is severely inadequate training at Korean Air. English instructors are needed.
· Needless callouts for everything imaginable. “Check” is overused and meaningless.
· Endless briefings of questionable value.
· Constant, needless ATIS updates.
· Required to MEMORIZE the POM, FOM, when it says in those books that the only memory items should be Recall items and limitations.
· Requiring the Captain to do the F/O job of loading the FMC and loading it with much more than required by Boeing - and then do the walk around as well. Doing the Captains job as well as the first officer’s job – what is the point of this?
· Not abiding by FOM cockpit security rules and regulations.
· Not abiding by FOM oxygen requirements when one pilot leaves the cockpit.
· Not abiding by FOM avoiding eating at the same time requirements.
· Treating every waypoint as compulsory.
· Korean Air spent time trying to build loyalty to their company with the initial indoctrination program and then caused distrust and even anger with the way we were treated in OE. All foreign Captains can see what is happening to these pilots. Poor treatment by Korean Air treatment instills mistrust and disdain in their workforce.
Blue Skies and good luck
Captain (I deleted the name since I have no permission from him to post it but he clearly identified himself on the report)
Last edited by cediazf; 31st Jul 2013 at 15:14. Reason: Requested by my partner who i mentiones in the first line of the message, the one being deleted.
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An excellent description of what is STILL going on today.
The only comfort I can offer is: you failed to meet their standard. I'm proud of you that you could not stoop that low.
The only comfort I can offer is: you failed to meet their standard. I'm proud of you that you could not stoop that low.
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Cediazf,
I read your issue between the lines. It is beyond training & skills.
If you have never been working outside of USA or 1st world countries, the local mind need to be deciphered prior to joining.
You are dealing with Korean military "heros" or local Koreans who may still remember the Koeran War with foreigners, specifically Americans, echoing a bad déjà vu memory. You may be faced with protectionist vs openess in a strong nationalistic spirit in the legacy American GIs leave behind them : http://askakorean.********.ca/2008/0...-about-us.html
Foreigners are never equal & will never be treated as equal nor fairly treated in Asia, whereas in "civilized countries" open to immigrants from around the globe, all would be treated on an equal footing in spite of uncovered unassumed ostracism xenophobia, unless openly racism.
Besides, your impressive resume may challenge them or intimidate many of the less experienced gentlemen who are driven to vicious self-defense. They may be intrigued with your skills and study you till the very end - to learn from you ? - instead of eliminating you right away.
Wish you could size the real dimension of a cheap testosterone war and shrugg it off. PM me if you want to discuss further. Best.
I read your issue between the lines. It is beyond training & skills.
If you have never been working outside of USA or 1st world countries, the local mind need to be deciphered prior to joining.
You are dealing with Korean military "heros" or local Koreans who may still remember the Koeran War with foreigners, specifically Americans, echoing a bad déjà vu memory. You may be faced with protectionist vs openess in a strong nationalistic spirit in the legacy American GIs leave behind them : http://askakorean.********.ca/2008/0...-about-us.html
Foreigners are never equal & will never be treated as equal nor fairly treated in Asia, whereas in "civilized countries" open to immigrants from around the globe, all would be treated on an equal footing in spite of uncovered unassumed ostracism xenophobia, unless openly racism.
Besides, your impressive resume may challenge them or intimidate many of the less experienced gentlemen who are driven to vicious self-defense. They may be intrigued with your skills and study you till the very end - to learn from you ? - instead of eliminating you right away.
Wish you could size the real dimension of a cheap testosterone war and shrugg it off. PM me if you want to discuss further. Best.
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Bay Bong. Thanks for the comment. I indeed also flew in south america and later with a taiwanese airline for 8 years all over the world. I found some of what you describe there but had nothing to do in my opinion with any war. There is just so much fear of losing face or allow anybody to look better than them. But to be fair, I found nice people in those cultures too. I met some of the regular korean and taiwanese pilots not involved in training who were really pleasant and nice. But some of these guys like in many places in addition with some of them not liking foreigners, once they get some power they feel like they are better than anyone. I also met other non flying staff there in korean and they were nice people. But the training department in korean air with the possible exception of the 747 where the failure rate is lower could be a living hell, especially during OE training. I just want others out there to be better informed than me and others were before making the decision.
Best wishes for you too
Best wishes for you too
Guys, I would like to know why somebody flying in a well reputed company like Delta or LH, wants to fly for Korean Airlines
I can understand that from a pilot flying for a LCC or living in a country with economy and/or political problems.
I can understand that from a pilot flying for a LCC or living in a country with economy and/or political problems.
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Too bad about the failure. The landing briefing is often given well before T/D due to a variety of reasons. Weather, traffic, ATC so it not unusual to complete it early. Too bad you were not aware of that information.
Any minor failure during the training process will put you under the magnifying glass and its hard to get out of that situation. Once instructors see this on your file, any future errors can get blown out of proportion.
Also the biggest issue is "will you fit in with the Korean crews". If they have determined you will not, every small mistake will be highlighted and its probably not going to end well.
Having been involved with hiring, training and supervising pilots at other airlines, I can see that this may have been part of your problem. Not your experience level or flying skills, but how you interacted with them. It's a huge part of the process at KAL and those who have made it through, for whatever reason, managed to demonstrate the required attitude. It's not right or wrong, it's just the way it is.
The up side is you still have a type rating with some hours on the aircraft.....shop yourself around and good luck.
bd
Any minor failure during the training process will put you under the magnifying glass and its hard to get out of that situation. Once instructors see this on your file, any future errors can get blown out of proportion.
Also the biggest issue is "will you fit in with the Korean crews". If they have determined you will not, every small mistake will be highlighted and its probably not going to end well.
Having been involved with hiring, training and supervising pilots at other airlines, I can see that this may have been part of your problem. Not your experience level or flying skills, but how you interacted with them. It's a huge part of the process at KAL and those who have made it through, for whatever reason, managed to demonstrate the required attitude. It's not right or wrong, it's just the way it is.
The up side is you still have a type rating with some hours on the aircraft.....shop yourself around and good luck.
bd
Last edited by blues deville; 14th Jun 2013 at 03:27.
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I went there and I think there's something seriously wrong with that company.
The (many, many) advertisements of KAL looks nice with great benefits right? How on earth is it possible that a company screws up that much that you're feeling a martyr for that money?
My opinion: the ego of the koreans (from instructors to the board). They are so incredibly reluctant to decrease the hierarchy between cpt & f/o that they have to increase checks/double checks/confirmations/double confirmations/long briefings to 'maintain' ICAO's level of safety. Because of their low safety level years ago ICAO made it mandatory that they hire more expats to increase CRM and therefore increase safety. So they are hiring more expats, but to keep them longer than their training (or max a few years)? No way! They don't want those noisy & assertive western people in their precious company.
And so you get that weird atmosphere that you don't bent or handshake first to your instructor, you DON'T refuse dinner in your 15min sim break, you laugh when he tells you to laugh and also... you only use the automation & managed guidance of the aircraft! Because they rather have a triple increase of their stresslevels when the automation fails, than disconnecting the AP above 1000' and using selected speed when there's no need... you just don't do that... EVER! If you do? They tell you: "Please go back to where you & your jetlag come from, ASAP!"
The (many, many) advertisements of KAL looks nice with great benefits right? How on earth is it possible that a company screws up that much that you're feeling a martyr for that money?
My opinion: the ego of the koreans (from instructors to the board). They are so incredibly reluctant to decrease the hierarchy between cpt & f/o that they have to increase checks/double checks/confirmations/double confirmations/long briefings to 'maintain' ICAO's level of safety. Because of their low safety level years ago ICAO made it mandatory that they hire more expats to increase CRM and therefore increase safety. So they are hiring more expats, but to keep them longer than their training (or max a few years)? No way! They don't want those noisy & assertive western people in their precious company.
And so you get that weird atmosphere that you don't bent or handshake first to your instructor, you DON'T refuse dinner in your 15min sim break, you laugh when he tells you to laugh and also... you only use the automation & managed guidance of the aircraft! Because they rather have a triple increase of their stresslevels when the automation fails, than disconnecting the AP above 1000' and using selected speed when there's no need... you just don't do that... EVER! If you do? They tell you: "Please go back to where you & your jetlag come from, ASAP!"
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: far enough
Age: 58
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Interesting reading.
I am glad I din't send my application yet.
An other good question is: why have they been advertising every single day for over than 2 years?
Smells bad. Stay away.
I am glad I din't send my application yet.
An other good question is: why have they been advertising every single day for over than 2 years?
Smells bad. Stay away.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ceduna
Age: 71
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Heard from mates still holed up in ICN that some guys actually had a pay cut or at the very best, a miserly increment based on the much acclaimed " pay rise ". Apparently all previous agreed to increments are now totally deducted with the current pay structure so much so that some guys who are with agencies which take a bigger cut ended up with an actual net pay reduction. Absolutely ludicruous to have your hard earned previous increments totally deducted!!! Only in KAL, kimchi crap!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hilo
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What? I read somewhere else that it was gonna be a substantial payrise of several thousand quids! Tricks and more tricks by KAL management; guys over there must be pretty sore. Hey, wth...vote with your feet!