Air India stops negotiation adopts new strategy
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I would actually agree with one of their key points - why train A320/A330 pilots on B787 when you have ready pilots from their B777 or perhaps B737s as well? AI is apparently neck deep in debt, and IMO they need to make some hard decisions on who actually should be trained and not who wants to be trained to save some money for the airline. But then again, have Indians ever made any sane choices with respect to their national carrier? My sympathy goes out to those unpaid folks, laying over on flights to Europe/USA without any money in their pockets. Such a disaster to be a pilot of an airline which cannot even provide basic sustanence. Shame!
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Anyone that accepts a job with A.I. while the pilots are on strike is a SCAB! You will be marked and you name will be broadcast. Good luck with that career decision.
My favorite is the staunch anti scab sentiment among the United Airlines pilots which has now merged into Continental. Quite a few UAL pilots of yesteryear were and are still venomous about their fellow co-workers who chose to cross their picket line in the mid 1980s. Continental Airlines also had an event too where some chose to cross the picket line too. The funny thing is that UAL pilots now flying in cockpits with Continental pilots who may have crossed their picket lines too. Oh well. such as life... or better yet get a life already.
At the end of the day, Geebz, I don't see expat crews who may fly for AI EX jumseating on Delta or United as they are no longer part of the PART 121 rat race. They left the US probably because they too got fed up with the crap they put up with when flying for US carriers.
Now... why didn't these Air India chappys call a sickout or go on strike for no pay??? Isn't pay a more important issue than who gets to play with the new toys? Myself, no pay no play. Or to quote a scene from the "Right Stuff"... "No bucks... no Buck Rogers". They could have had Air India by the balls. Oh well... such as life.
Now... as far as the excuse of "Career Progression"??? GMFB. Children can't play with the new toys first??? No wait... GMAFB! Now that was a battle far more important than pay
These children need a time out. These brats are funnier than the Three Stooges.
Last edited by captjns; 13th Jun 2012 at 11:36.
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SCAB LIST
Does this list even exists outside of the US?
Further, is it not illegal to maintain such a list? (I already know the answer to that question, certainly within the UK it would be illegal)
Further, is it not illegal to maintain such a list? (I already know the answer to that question, certainly within the UK it would be illegal)
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The list may be illegal (or not, I don't think any such rule exists to ban it), but it still exists here in the UK, perhaps even in India. I have come across quite a few pilots whose reputation have preceded them. Still, would you work for an organization who hasn't paid their workers? What guarantee would you have regarding your pay and adherence to your contract?
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In the United Kingdom it would fall foul of the Data Protection Act to compile such a list. If it was ever used to discrimate against someone's employment they could also sue.
I just had a look over the US (someone was kind enough to PM it to me) the entries on that list date back to the 80's. With nothing recent being on there.
Unless things have changed, the contract pilots at AI will get paid as the agency request between 1-3 months payments upfront.
I just had a look over the US (someone was kind enough to PM it to me) the entries on that list date back to the 80's. With nothing recent being on there.
Unless things have changed, the contract pilots at AI will get paid as the agency request between 1-3 months payments upfront.
Last edited by PT6A; 13th Jun 2012 at 13:11.
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Misfits and Mercinaries. Thats how I heard one guy explain contract pilots.
Certainly the misfits on this board are salivating at the chance to cross a picket line and STEAL a job. And yes, many US scabs work out of India, so it will come as no surprise that these parasites have no problem crossing a strike like. That's the Indian pilot's fault for being so ignorant about the subject and allowing those guys to get into the aviation market there in the first place.
What I'm trying to do is educate the younger generation that you don't go out and get excited about an aviation job just because that carrier's pilots are on strike. Honestly, most Indian aviators are absolutely clueless in regards to this concept. I worked there for many years and was surprised how little they actually knew about unity.
Some guys don't seem to understand what scabs do to the aviation profession. They undermine the pay and lifestyle that generations of aviators before us worked and fought so hard to establish. If the company sees that it can hire scabs to work for less, they will exploit that. To the point where even the scabs get their jobs farmed out to the lowest bidder. It's called the race to the bottom.
There's nothing illegal about maintaining any list, btw. You can sue for anything but the burden of proof is always on the plaintiff. So good luck with that.
And remember, the pilots of Air India are indeed striking over pay. Why it took them so long is beyond me. When I was working in India I would rag them in the airport for accepting no pay for 2-3 months. It took 6 months of no pay for them to finally say enough is enough. They share blame for letting it get that far.
And yet some on here have the audacity to call them whiners and children. Wake the fk up. Nobody can work for free... that's called slavery.
Certainly the misfits on this board are salivating at the chance to cross a picket line and STEAL a job. And yes, many US scabs work out of India, so it will come as no surprise that these parasites have no problem crossing a strike like. That's the Indian pilot's fault for being so ignorant about the subject and allowing those guys to get into the aviation market there in the first place.
What I'm trying to do is educate the younger generation that you don't go out and get excited about an aviation job just because that carrier's pilots are on strike. Honestly, most Indian aviators are absolutely clueless in regards to this concept. I worked there for many years and was surprised how little they actually knew about unity.
Some guys don't seem to understand what scabs do to the aviation profession. They undermine the pay and lifestyle that generations of aviators before us worked and fought so hard to establish. If the company sees that it can hire scabs to work for less, they will exploit that. To the point where even the scabs get their jobs farmed out to the lowest bidder. It's called the race to the bottom.
There's nothing illegal about maintaining any list, btw. You can sue for anything but the burden of proof is always on the plaintiff. So good luck with that.
And remember, the pilots of Air India are indeed striking over pay. Why it took them so long is beyond me. When I was working in India I would rag them in the airport for accepting no pay for 2-3 months. It took 6 months of no pay for them to finally say enough is enough. They share blame for letting it get that far.
And yet some on here have the audacity to call them whiners and children. Wake the fk up. Nobody can work for free... that's called slavery.
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Wannbe Flyer: "As a business owner if a person crosses the picket line and comes back to work after realizing the futility, I will look at them in a better light "
Are you kidding me? You know nothing about the labor side of owning a business. A successful business owner or exec sees his employees as assets of the organization and uses them as tools to thrive. Look at Southwest Airlines as an example. By contrast, mess with a pilot and their lack of morale will decimate the bottom line. Why, as business owner, would you piss off your most skilled labor?
Would you tell your Neurosurgeon what a useless fk-up he is and berate him just before goes in to do surgery on your brain? Would you treat your auto mechanic like crap and hope for a successful outcome of a major repair?
I've owned and ran 4 businesses throughout life. Each and every time I was all too aware that failing to manage my employees expectations could have dire consequences in terms of my success. Read the book: "Employees First, Customers Second." Ironically written by the chairman and CEO of one of India's largest companies.
You get what you pay for in life. You get the respect you give out. Air India mgmt created this situation by refusing the most basic human right in today's modern society, pay for services rendered. It should come as no surprise that the pilots have elected to shut down the airline. The only surprise is why it took so long for them to face reality, that management was never going to pay them.
Look, I'm no fan of Air India. I don't see why my hard-earned Indian tax dollars went to support an ailing government airline when I was there. Nor do I see it fair that my US taxes I pay now support A.I. by granting low-interest loans (US Taxpayer funded) on 777s and 787s. And I have equally come across many of the most arrogant Air India pilots in my travels there (to be fair, many many pleasant ones too). But my personal feelings don't bare any relevance to the situation at hand: a large corporate citizen withholding pay from it's employees. On that alone we should all be supporting the A.I. pilots in their strike.
Are you kidding me? You know nothing about the labor side of owning a business. A successful business owner or exec sees his employees as assets of the organization and uses them as tools to thrive. Look at Southwest Airlines as an example. By contrast, mess with a pilot and their lack of morale will decimate the bottom line. Why, as business owner, would you piss off your most skilled labor?
Would you tell your Neurosurgeon what a useless fk-up he is and berate him just before goes in to do surgery on your brain? Would you treat your auto mechanic like crap and hope for a successful outcome of a major repair?
I've owned and ran 4 businesses throughout life. Each and every time I was all too aware that failing to manage my employees expectations could have dire consequences in terms of my success. Read the book: "Employees First, Customers Second." Ironically written by the chairman and CEO of one of India's largest companies.
You get what you pay for in life. You get the respect you give out. Air India mgmt created this situation by refusing the most basic human right in today's modern society, pay for services rendered. It should come as no surprise that the pilots have elected to shut down the airline. The only surprise is why it took so long for them to face reality, that management was never going to pay them.
Look, I'm no fan of Air India. I don't see why my hard-earned Indian tax dollars went to support an ailing government airline when I was there. Nor do I see it fair that my US taxes I pay now support A.I. by granting low-interest loans (US Taxpayer funded) on 777s and 787s. And I have equally come across many of the most arrogant Air India pilots in my travels there (to be fair, many many pleasant ones too). But my personal feelings don't bare any relevance to the situation at hand: a large corporate citizen withholding pay from it's employees. On that alone we should all be supporting the A.I. pilots in their strike.
Last edited by Geebz; 13th Jun 2012 at 21:27.
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GEEBZ. Congratulations on running 4 business. Unfortunately I cannot boast of that experience, I have only a single business with over 400 employees for 12 years and not had them go on strike ever or even think of forming a union. Would assume it is relatively successful as I do not have banks chasing me.
Back to AI
Can you please highlight where in any document even one AI staff member is saying they are on strike because of non payment of dues. I am unable to find that reference. The only reference I am finding is their gripe on the 787 and as of today a feeling the erstwhile Indian Airlines staff are having too much say in day to day matters.
Now as you have said when you were in India you used to pull their leg on delayed payments. A question I have. After 5 years of delayed payments why did they choose to go on strike 30 days after the Old minister got the sack and the new one took over. Too get a clarity on that would suggest you look up the "non aviation" leader of the IPG which is striking, his track record and more importantly who is his boss.......... Let me help you........the sacked minister
, but do some reading.
Now if the courts have declared the strike legal and the airline has started paying the salary post the much hyped equity infusion that came in this month and has asked them to collect their entire salary and come back to work does that not address their demand as per you? If yes then why are the still striking?
It is no secret AI is broke. It was not secret that the govt was working out a package to bail them out. It is open news that the first tranche has just come in, it is open news that all outstanding have been settled except for the 340 on strike and the 101 terminated ones have been asked to come in and settle their dues. Where is the beef now?
Back to AI
Can you please highlight where in any document even one AI staff member is saying they are on strike because of non payment of dues. I am unable to find that reference. The only reference I am finding is their gripe on the 787 and as of today a feeling the erstwhile Indian Airlines staff are having too much say in day to day matters.
Now as you have said when you were in India you used to pull their leg on delayed payments. A question I have. After 5 years of delayed payments why did they choose to go on strike 30 days after the Old minister got the sack and the new one took over. Too get a clarity on that would suggest you look up the "non aviation" leader of the IPG which is striking, his track record and more importantly who is his boss.......... Let me help you........the sacked minister
, but do some reading.Now if the courts have declared the strike legal and the airline has started paying the salary post the much hyped equity infusion that came in this month and has asked them to collect their entire salary and come back to work does that not address their demand as per you? If yes then why are the still striking?
It is no secret AI is broke. It was not secret that the govt was working out a package to bail them out. It is open news that the first tranche has just come in, it is open news that all outstanding have been settled except for the 340 on strike and the 101 terminated ones have been asked to come in and settle their dues. Where is the beef now?
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I fully agree with my Mr. Geebz here. Aviation industry is business too, and you have to run it like one. If you don't pay your employees, or favor one section over another, there is bound to be chaos. The management and the workers always have to be in harmony in any organisation, if they wish to survive. It is the bare essential of running a business.
I'm sorry Mr. Wannabe Flyer, I would disagree on your points. There is indeed a charter of demands for the striking pilots, and it does include payment of dues on a higher priority than of the much infamous claim on 787s. It may not be available to the general public, which is why perhaps you have not seen it. The clause for 787s is not what you think, however. It states that if the narrow body pilots were to be given equal opportunity on the 787s as the wide body pilots, the door should also be open for a wide body pilot to go over to narrow body aircrafts too. This has been rejected by the narrow body pilots, thus reducing the career progression (command conversion mostly) chances of the wide body pilots, while the narrow body folks are making merry on their luck. I hope now you understand on how it affects the poor wide body pilots more. Besides, when the company is almost broke, if I were the CMD, I would rather send a Boeing fellow for a 787 conversion rather than a gentleman from Airbus, as the training for the latter would be more expensive. Boeing to Boeing conversion sounds like a better business decision, as it would mean more relief for the taxpayers like you who fund the airline, thereby leaving more money for the airline to pay their wages.
Secondly, from what I've know, only February salary is paid to non-striking pilots and not to the striking folks. March, April, May and June dues still stand. So, I must say that you have been misinformed by your sources. Terminated pilots have been given close to $1800 severance pay only with no reference or offer to their previous outstanding dues whatsoever. I would have a problem with that, if I was in their shoes. And the equity infusion that came went for the above mentioned February salary, as I mentioned, besides fuel/airport charges. No other dues have been cleared or are planned to. Another point, their wages are being delayed for the past 1 year alone, not 5 years. Once again I would say that I doubt your sources. Also, why delay their February salary? The so called "agitation" only started in May, right? They can be paid till that month, at least. Just a thought.
It would be a different ball-game if Air India were to magically come up with funds to clear all past dues to all employees. But they cannot do that as of now. So let's not hypothesise on "what might happen if...". You are talking of parallel universes there mate. Having said that, I wonder why they didn't go on for their planned strike in April on the non-payment of their wages. I guess perhaps they were indeed thinking for the company, but who knows? Maybe this 787 business was their last straw, as they claim. I mean, no pay + no career progression + the horrible work atmosphere, I would be feeling pretty down about it if I was one of them. I think I can say for myself, I support these guys.
I'm sorry Mr. Wannabe Flyer, I would disagree on your points. There is indeed a charter of demands for the striking pilots, and it does include payment of dues on a higher priority than of the much infamous claim on 787s. It may not be available to the general public, which is why perhaps you have not seen it. The clause for 787s is not what you think, however. It states that if the narrow body pilots were to be given equal opportunity on the 787s as the wide body pilots, the door should also be open for a wide body pilot to go over to narrow body aircrafts too. This has been rejected by the narrow body pilots, thus reducing the career progression (command conversion mostly) chances of the wide body pilots, while the narrow body folks are making merry on their luck. I hope now you understand on how it affects the poor wide body pilots more. Besides, when the company is almost broke, if I were the CMD, I would rather send a Boeing fellow for a 787 conversion rather than a gentleman from Airbus, as the training for the latter would be more expensive. Boeing to Boeing conversion sounds like a better business decision, as it would mean more relief for the taxpayers like you who fund the airline, thereby leaving more money for the airline to pay their wages.
Secondly, from what I've know, only February salary is paid to non-striking pilots and not to the striking folks. March, April, May and June dues still stand. So, I must say that you have been misinformed by your sources. Terminated pilots have been given close to $1800 severance pay only with no reference or offer to their previous outstanding dues whatsoever. I would have a problem with that, if I was in their shoes. And the equity infusion that came went for the above mentioned February salary, as I mentioned, besides fuel/airport charges. No other dues have been cleared or are planned to. Another point, their wages are being delayed for the past 1 year alone, not 5 years. Once again I would say that I doubt your sources. Also, why delay their February salary? The so called "agitation" only started in May, right? They can be paid till that month, at least. Just a thought.
It would be a different ball-game if Air India were to magically come up with funds to clear all past dues to all employees. But they cannot do that as of now. So let's not hypothesise on "what might happen if...". You are talking of parallel universes there mate. Having said that, I wonder why they didn't go on for their planned strike in April on the non-payment of their wages. I guess perhaps they were indeed thinking for the company, but who knows? Maybe this 787 business was their last straw, as they claim. I mean, no pay + no career progression + the horrible work atmosphere, I would be feeling pretty down about it if I was one of them. I think I can say for myself, I support these guys.
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Read a few posts earlier regarding a scab list.
Well, in AI , u don't have to maintain a list, U automatically become well-known for crossing the picket line.
Someone was posting about info over who would jump in place of this strikers. Check this thread out.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...737-777-a.html
As much as I know, pilots of AI itself have left and joined domestic airlines. About 15 to 20 of them have gone recently. So much so, even 2 executives have resigned from AI, even thou they were not part of the strikers. What say to that. I don't see anybody coming into this hell from domestic airlines.
The type-rated Ad is targeted specifically for the striking pilots to return on contract terms so they can't strike again and be placed at junior levels. Another arm twisting/ pressure tactic by the govt to break the union.
The expats vacancies are usually filled by agencies (someone has to get the kickbacks, rite). No expat in his right frame of mind would join AI.
AI had a lot of expats who have left now with no intentions to return.
Someone was talking about the strike being, for getting to play first on the 787. I think it was wannabe flyer and cactus225. Boys, with the decision of 1:1 pilots of AI:IC, the AI FOs will not see their command for 16-25 years. while the IC guys get their command in about 4 years. I would like to hear your version only if you were to sit on the RHS for the rest of your life. This is what they are fighting over, when they say career progression.
@wannabe flyer
Don't pay your 400 employees for 6 months and U will be fortunate to boast of that experience. U could even begin with violating some T&Cs of their agreement. And my 2 bits of advice would be, why even think about being a pilot when your business is doing well, unless of course, you want to call yourself a workman.
Well, in AI , u don't have to maintain a list, U automatically become well-known for crossing the picket line.
Someone was posting about info over who would jump in place of this strikers. Check this thread out.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...737-777-a.html
As much as I know, pilots of AI itself have left and joined domestic airlines. About 15 to 20 of them have gone recently. So much so, even 2 executives have resigned from AI, even thou they were not part of the strikers. What say to that. I don't see anybody coming into this hell from domestic airlines.
The type-rated Ad is targeted specifically for the striking pilots to return on contract terms so they can't strike again and be placed at junior levels. Another arm twisting/ pressure tactic by the govt to break the union.
The expats vacancies are usually filled by agencies (someone has to get the kickbacks, rite). No expat in his right frame of mind would join AI.
AI had a lot of expats who have left now with no intentions to return.
Someone was talking about the strike being, for getting to play first on the 787. I think it was wannabe flyer and cactus225. Boys, with the decision of 1:1 pilots of AI:IC, the AI FOs will not see their command for 16-25 years. while the IC guys get their command in about 4 years. I would like to hear your version only if you were to sit on the RHS for the rest of your life. This is what they are fighting over, when they say career progression.
@wannabe flyer
Unfortunately I cannot boast of that experience, I have only a single business with over 400 employees for 12 years and not had them go on strike ever or even think of forming a union
Last edited by unfAIR; 14th Jun 2012 at 15:33.
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edisontrent : I unfortunately have access to information on what is available on the public domain as well as interviews on TV with the heads of the Union and their comments. Rest of my experience is based on multiple travels on the carrier and the levels of staff commitment even when they were being paid and not merged.
Unfair: I agree, I pay my employees they perform I make money, I pay my employees they do not perform I loose money I fire/lay them off.
Unfortunately airlines in India especially AI do not have that option. 21 years and millions of miles later every experience from booking to flight on AI or IC has been forgettable purely due to staff apathy.
My business may be doing well it may also be linked to aviation, that does not stop one from being passionate about something outside their own profession and working towards developing that skill. Searched all my posts and my profile no where does it say I want to be a pilot. My handle says Wannabe Flyer but that could be just a pipe dream or a the wish to fly privately at my own cost. Las tI checked thousands of people do that and there is no restriction or hindrance to do so. Hence it is my prerogative to fly or not and would have to turn your 2 bits of advice down.
Unfair: I agree, I pay my employees they perform I make money, I pay my employees they do not perform I loose money I fire/lay them off.
Unfortunately airlines in India especially AI do not have that option. 21 years and millions of miles later every experience from booking to flight on AI or IC has been forgettable purely due to staff apathy.
My business may be doing well it may also be linked to aviation, that does not stop one from being passionate about something outside their own profession and working towards developing that skill. Searched all my posts and my profile no where does it say I want to be a pilot. My handle says Wannabe Flyer but that could be just a pipe dream or a the wish to fly privately at my own cost. Las tI checked thousands of people do that and there is no restriction or hindrance to do so. Hence it is my prerogative to fly or not and would have to turn your 2 bits of advice down.
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Mr. Wannabe Flyer, I did not mean to offend you nor disregard your sources. It appears that you did try to gather whatever information you could, which was a good effort, given the fact that you do not currently fly but would like to keep up with the news. I do not blame you, a common man, for not knowing the inner details of what goes on with your national airline, nor do I expect you to. In the name of aviation security, all personnel are banned from talking to the media except selected folks in most parts of the world. Which is why those striking folks cannot answer each and every query raised by the public, or clear any misconceptions that have arisen due to the media's selective vision. In my opinion though, you are too hard on these guys. Why don't you try to ponder over those points on how lack of wages for such a long time, zero career progression, and a very high handed management can drive someone on the brink of mental chaos and choose to take such an extreme step? Ask your employees on how they would feel, also ask them to speak freely. Perhaps then you may appreciate the situation from their perspective. Just a suggestion. Also, have you ever met or talked to a pilot from AI? I really do not understand why you would question their commitment if you haven't even met them. On behalf of the pilot community, I would urge you to show some compassion to these guys, I think they deserve some now.
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Edisontrent: Wow never realized that labor discussions could be considered a national security issue. Will continue researching it. yes I have spoken to some AI pilots and they have been very candid. A good % of them are being coaxed by their seniors and feel caught in a political game between the head of the union and the current stance taken by the new Minister. Unfortunately due to the scab list phenomenon that is alive and well in India their career progression will suffer more if they cross the picket line. Vindictiveness is embedded in the very soul of the Indian culture. A senior pilot will spend the rest of his waking moments ensuring the downfall of a scab or concentrating on how to pull down his right seat to ensure he does not get pulled down first.
Now to clarify on their wages from what I have been given to understand that unlike some of the private carriers who have given zilch money AI is holding off on Basic pay and is giving allowances for the past few months. The struggle for it to maintain cash flows is public knowledge. Hopefully with the bail out some funds will make their way to deserving crews. FYI across industry in this country currently payables have touched 90 days so not a new thing.
Now why i cannot show compassion so easily is that for 21 years I have on and off used AI and IC and every trip has been memorable for the wrong reason i.e. the crew. Even when they were the best paid I have seen them more interested in cutting deals, slipping thru customs and doing anything under the sky to supplement their incomes which have been higher than all airlines and the national average. Young impressionable kids who joined here got embedded into this culture of corruption and laziness and this is the root cause of problems in this air line and country. I am a strong believer that they have delivered to them a bankrupt airline where travelers deserted them in the best of time due to crappy service and absolute apathy of both the staff and the management not to discount the political class. The airline is bankrupt today cause no Indian wanted to fly them. I cannot comment for the behind the scenes crew but considering few planes of AI have fallen out of the sky over the past 30 years due to maintenance issues so I am assuming they are competent. Dwindling business, and routes means fewer options to grow. How many aircraft has AI indicted over the past 10 Years? They could have served notice and moved to the private carriers 5 years ago. Why didn't they?
Note: 3 family members are ex AI (not IC) covering the 70's 80's and upto recent. They were "pushed" out when they did not go with the masses. Forgive me if I am blunt and unsympathetic but you get what you deserve.
NOTE: No offense taken a healthy debate is always good, one learns something new everyday
Now to clarify on their wages from what I have been given to understand that unlike some of the private carriers who have given zilch money AI is holding off on Basic pay and is giving allowances for the past few months. The struggle for it to maintain cash flows is public knowledge. Hopefully with the bail out some funds will make their way to deserving crews. FYI across industry in this country currently payables have touched 90 days so not a new thing.
Now why i cannot show compassion so easily is that for 21 years I have on and off used AI and IC and every trip has been memorable for the wrong reason i.e. the crew. Even when they were the best paid I have seen them more interested in cutting deals, slipping thru customs and doing anything under the sky to supplement their incomes which have been higher than all airlines and the national average. Young impressionable kids who joined here got embedded into this culture of corruption and laziness and this is the root cause of problems in this air line and country. I am a strong believer that they have delivered to them a bankrupt airline where travelers deserted them in the best of time due to crappy service and absolute apathy of both the staff and the management not to discount the political class. The airline is bankrupt today cause no Indian wanted to fly them. I cannot comment for the behind the scenes crew but considering few planes of AI have fallen out of the sky over the past 30 years due to maintenance issues so I am assuming they are competent. Dwindling business, and routes means fewer options to grow. How many aircraft has AI indicted over the past 10 Years? They could have served notice and moved to the private carriers 5 years ago. Why didn't they?
Note: 3 family members are ex AI (not IC) covering the 70's 80's and upto recent. They were "pushed" out when they did not go with the masses. Forgive me if I am blunt and unsympathetic but you get what you deserve.
NOTE: No offense taken a healthy debate is always good, one learns something new everyday
Last edited by Wannabe Flyer; 15th Jun 2012 at 12:06.
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Sorry mate, I guess once more someone hasn't been giving you the correct picture. This agitation has been called on mostly by the juniors, as they are the ones who stand to lose out the most. Anyone telling you that seniors are dragging the first officers along is a load of BS, and why would someone say this is a mystery to me. The heads of the unions are just going with what the majority of the union, the first officers, want. So I guess you cannot state that people are being coaxed here, no sir! If the majority would want it to end, it will. I do not think that vindictiveness is relevant here.
And no, the last was their basic February pay. No allowances since January, or December, I'm not sure. Besides, the airline has been doing good business recently, or so I gather anyway. All that money unfortunately went down for paying fuel charges and airport charges and all that. But a 90 days of backlog with respect to wages is not a good thing, in any industry or region. They would have been sued here had it happened in Europe. I guess Indians score high on tolerance and patience, but then I'll say someone had to stand up to it eventually if all that is to end. A line has to be drawn.
Ah, so you do have a personal connection to AI. I have heard of many such stories, yes. But personally never came across any, in any airline that I have worked for that matter. You might be surprised on how much some of the Indian Customs guys might be involved too, but again, those are also stories that I've heard. Perhaps things will gradually improve, let's be optimists for a change. Corruption exists everywhere in the world, some you see, some you don't. Back to the subject, Air India has inducted about 25 or something 777s, 20 odd 737s, and about 50 odd 320s, besides another 25 or so 787s on order in the past 10 years. Back then, with a decent career opportunity as this, who would not join or leave AI? You may know the state of other carriers in India today, why would anyone jump from one hellhole to another now? Besides, if things do not work, it is better to fix it, is it not?
And aviation security means you do not talk about anything, and I mean anything. Be it the name of that CMD's secretary, negotiations with unions, or how many wheels a plane has. It is something that is taught worldwide, especially after that 9/11 debacle. So the gag order stands, strike or no strike.
And no, the last was their basic February pay. No allowances since January, or December, I'm not sure. Besides, the airline has been doing good business recently, or so I gather anyway. All that money unfortunately went down for paying fuel charges and airport charges and all that. But a 90 days of backlog with respect to wages is not a good thing, in any industry or region. They would have been sued here had it happened in Europe. I guess Indians score high on tolerance and patience, but then I'll say someone had to stand up to it eventually if all that is to end. A line has to be drawn.
Ah, so you do have a personal connection to AI. I have heard of many such stories, yes. But personally never came across any, in any airline that I have worked for that matter. You might be surprised on how much some of the Indian Customs guys might be involved too, but again, those are also stories that I've heard. Perhaps things will gradually improve, let's be optimists for a change. Corruption exists everywhere in the world, some you see, some you don't. Back to the subject, Air India has inducted about 25 or something 777s, 20 odd 737s, and about 50 odd 320s, besides another 25 or so 787s on order in the past 10 years. Back then, with a decent career opportunity as this, who would not join or leave AI? You may know the state of other carriers in India today, why would anyone jump from one hellhole to another now? Besides, if things do not work, it is better to fix it, is it not?
And aviation security means you do not talk about anything, and I mean anything. Be it the name of that CMD's secretary, negotiations with unions, or how many wheels a plane has. It is something that is taught worldwide, especially after that 9/11 debacle. So the gag order stands, strike or no strike.
Last edited by edisontrent; 15th Jun 2012 at 16:45.
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Been watching and reading about this with great interest.Normally,I lean towards labour as there is a history of exploitation of labour throughout history and in aviation.
There are always two sides to a story in a labour dispute.There is always rhetoric and whining on both sides and accusations and counter accusations are hurled.The truth and the solution is typically in the middle.
It is bad enough when private corporations or individuals (owners) get into a urinary olympiad with labour.Throw Government in the mix and voila, you have Air India.
It is time to get rid of government control of AI and start from scratch.That sentiment has been expressed here by different folks.But,given the long standing adulterous relationship between Govt and AI,it will never happen.So,right now both entities are in a death spiral clinging to each other and going down.
Farewell,Maharaja.It was nice knowing you.
Alt3
There are always two sides to a story in a labour dispute.There is always rhetoric and whining on both sides and accusations and counter accusations are hurled.The truth and the solution is typically in the middle.
It is bad enough when private corporations or individuals (owners) get into a urinary olympiad with labour.Throw Government in the mix and voila, you have Air India.
It is time to get rid of government control of AI and start from scratch.That sentiment has been expressed here by different folks.But,given the long standing adulterous relationship between Govt and AI,it will never happen.So,right now both entities are in a death spiral clinging to each other and going down.
Farewell,Maharaja.It was nice knowing you.
Alt3
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edisontrent: I whole heartedly agree with you that there is corruption everywhere. I know Indian customs are hand in glove. I have also seen some of the stricter policies jet has on Cc in regards to baggage etc.
Good to get clarifications on the pay. I will also re discuss your points on senior and junior and seek a clarification from the messenger.
In regards to the number of aircraft. in the last 10 years
1) 737 for AI express: were they 20? I thought the number was much smaller.
2) 320 for AI: I thought IC had not inducted any new 320 and was leasing a few while the aging ones were repaired
3) 25 777: No that does not seem correct. There were a few leased ones that were returned but purchased 25......?
4) 787 yet to come.
Therefore as per my last count in the last 10 years 777 and 737 (new aircraft put together maybe 20 of them have been inducted but also 747 and the 330 and 310 were pulled off so actual incremental count excluding AIE is actually not there in AI.
I guess i was trying to point out incremental climb in number of aircraft not replacement.
Good to get clarifications on the pay. I will also re discuss your points on senior and junior and seek a clarification from the messenger.
In regards to the number of aircraft. in the last 10 years
1) 737 for AI express: were they 20? I thought the number was much smaller.
2) 320 for AI: I thought IC had not inducted any new 320 and was leasing a few while the aging ones were repaired
3) 25 777: No that does not seem correct. There were a few leased ones that were returned but purchased 25......?
4) 787 yet to come.
Therefore as per my last count in the last 10 years 777 and 737 (new aircraft put together maybe 20 of them have been inducted but also 747 and the 330 and 310 were pulled off so actual incremental count excluding AIE is actually not there in AI.
I guess i was trying to point out incremental climb in number of aircraft not replacement.
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Looking at it from outside, as usual the labor unions running these sick outs have done a miserable job dealing with the media. This is why the general public is not on your side. The pilots should have sick outed much sooner and told the press they weren't being paid. End of story everybody understands no pay no work, but when the media is saying sick out because life's not fare, not much sympathy is coming from a guy living on 20000 rupees a month. This is the umpteenth sickout that has no direction or proper leadership to manage this to a respectable outcome. You can't start the sickout for one reason and then change the reason later when you realize things aren't going how you planned them. If you have a legit reason that the average guy understands your outcome will be much better. Otherwise keep it in house.
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To management chappies who were part of the problem have decided to bail out. What a shock
Where were these gebronies when the work force were deprived of their justified dues?
Two Air India pilots resign, cite fatigue and stress; Ajit Singh to gauge tiredness level now - The Economic Times
Where were these gebronies when the work force were deprived of their justified dues?
Two Air India pilots resign, cite fatigue and stress; Ajit Singh to gauge tiredness level now - The Economic Times
Last edited by captjns; 22nd Jun 2012 at 00:37.
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Nepotism
Most of the Exec Pilots have their offsprings in AI as pilots and these kids are among the striking pilots.
I would second everything that wannabeflyer says, being an ex- AI employee myself it is extremely disgusting to witness the calibre of some of the AI crew. Like wbflyer, i frequent AI for the nostalgia. I had joined AI not too long after the nationalisation. I got a glimpse of its old world charm and chutzpah. I still reminisense in the experience of the Mughal windows, the maharaja and the mughal paintings on the interior sidewalls and bulkheads. Not to mention the food.
I had sussed out alongwith nearly 100 of my collegues the tragic path this airline was heading into, literally a CFIT, we made our decision to call it a day and headed for the gulf in the 80s and early 90s. AI was being looted left, right and centre. You either joined the marauding lot or you suffered in isolation, we chose to jump ship.
This airline enabled me and i am gratefull to it for that and hence i fly it as a fare paying pax, now that i am living in UK and am not an airline employee anymore. Last summer i had to speak to a AME institute of over 100 students in India. Most of them were disheartened and dejected about their future in India due to the dismal state of the industry, many had invested their parents hard earned money into the course. Unfortunately in the hands of the GOI and manned by these unscrupulous characters AI/IA has turned into vicious parasite that is killing aviation in India.
The whole country is witnessing a sense of Schadenfreude, looking at these AI folks. Its sad but true.
Till date i sincerely hope this airline is revived under a Pvt ownership, preferably TATAs.
I would second everything that wannabeflyer says, being an ex- AI employee myself it is extremely disgusting to witness the calibre of some of the AI crew. Like wbflyer, i frequent AI for the nostalgia. I had joined AI not too long after the nationalisation. I got a glimpse of its old world charm and chutzpah. I still reminisense in the experience of the Mughal windows, the maharaja and the mughal paintings on the interior sidewalls and bulkheads. Not to mention the food.
I had sussed out alongwith nearly 100 of my collegues the tragic path this airline was heading into, literally a CFIT, we made our decision to call it a day and headed for the gulf in the 80s and early 90s. AI was being looted left, right and centre. You either joined the marauding lot or you suffered in isolation, we chose to jump ship.
This airline enabled me and i am gratefull to it for that and hence i fly it as a fare paying pax, now that i am living in UK and am not an airline employee anymore. Last summer i had to speak to a AME institute of over 100 students in India. Most of them were disheartened and dejected about their future in India due to the dismal state of the industry, many had invested their parents hard earned money into the course. Unfortunately in the hands of the GOI and manned by these unscrupulous characters AI/IA has turned into vicious parasite that is killing aviation in India.
The whole country is witnessing a sense of Schadenfreude, looking at these AI folks. Its sad but true.
Till date i sincerely hope this airline is revived under a Pvt ownership, preferably TATAs.
Last edited by jethrotull; 24th Jun 2012 at 00:24.
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Sorry guys... Had to wipe the coffee off my screen and keyboard after reading this tidbit from the Times of India.
Full story
Air India pilots go on hunger strike - The Times of India
Children... you gotta love them
. The children of Air India are still pissed off because the Indian Airlines pilots are getting their shot at the 787 before them
.
I wonder how many of the hunger strikers will lose enough weight to have the "MUST LOSE WEIGHT" stamp from the Indian medicals? But yet, I wonder how many will actually forego their daily repasts
?
AI pilots to go on hunger strike: The striking pilots of the erstwhile Air India are expected to go on a hunger strike, beginning on Sunday, in Delhi and Mumbai to put pressure on the government to meet their demands
The striking pilots of the erstwhile Air India are expected to go on a hunger strike, beginning on Sunday, in Delhi and Mumbai to put pressure on the government to meet their demands
Air India pilots go on hunger strike - The Times of India
Children... you gotta love them
. The children of Air India are still pissed off because the Indian Airlines pilots are getting their shot at the 787 before them.I wonder how many of the hunger strikers will lose enough weight to have the "MUST LOSE WEIGHT" stamp from the Indian medicals
? But yet, I wonder how many will actually forego their daily repasts?
Last edited by captjns; 24th Jun 2012 at 06:29.