Air India scams and inefficiency - hilarious!
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Wait for the blow: Subsidised economies are set to die one day. Market forces will tell later, seen that on the Globe the past decades several times.
To face reality is not easy and it takes a long way to develop wealth thru a society. There are alot of challenges in India and it takes a long time to overcome the pride and look over the fence. Arrogance is there, it now takes intelligence to convert that into success.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
To face reality is not easy and it takes a long way to develop wealth thru a society. There are alot of challenges in India and it takes a long time to overcome the pride and look over the fence. Arrogance is there, it now takes intelligence to convert that into success.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
Paxing All Over The World
B737NG
They will always exist somewhere on the planet. It is true some countries my move between the two extremes - but across an extended period of time. It might take another 100 years for India to be more market led, or longer.
For our life times, you can expect there to be a mixture of both types in ALL countries ranging from 1%~99%. Just as it always has been in the world.
Subsidised economies are set to die one day.
For our life times, you can expect there to be a mixture of both types in ALL countries ranging from 1%~99%. Just as it always has been in the world.
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Wearbear, unfortunately the Indian government does nothing but hinder the private carriers in India. Fuel is heavily taxed, airport fees in Delhi alone were allowed to be increased 775 percent, ticket prices are closely controlled by the government, most of the money provided to upgrade atc systems and airports is diverted to the politicians and their friends pockets causing much wasted fuel in orbits and delays on the ground as well as complete approaches even on nice days.
The government then reports delay stats in the papers, tv making the airlines responsible for said delay, fines are levied and votes gathered for a great cm who is looking out for the little guy.
FDI is being debated but who in there right mind would want to invest into a system like this.
The country just recently started to allow tanking fuel in from the gulf. Welcome to Indian aviation 101.
The government then reports delay stats in the papers, tv making the airlines responsible for said delay, fines are levied and votes gathered for a great cm who is looking out for the little guy.
FDI is being debated but who in there right mind would want to invest into a system like this.The country just recently started to allow tanking fuel in from the gulf. Welcome to Indian aviation 101.
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Drive 73
It is very easy to blame a government for everything and anything. This is an easy way out. Now to analyze your points
1) Fuel is heavily taxed: Correct it is especially at the state level and every city is different. However there are some states and cities that have dropped taxes to assist. Taxes on fuel are applicable only on domestic flights and there is low or no tax on international flights.
2) delhi Airport is a private operation with govt as a stake holder. After the billions that were spent on it a method to recover them is needed. Yes fees have been raised 775% but when the base number was so low ($1 or less in some cases) why don't we do an apples to apples comparison on a global basis as to what others charge. Same for landing fees which have been raised to the higher side. Cost of improving infrastructure when the country is broke due to people not paying their taxes.
3) Politicians lining their pockets instead of spending on infrastructure. Oxymoron actually as they cannot steal directly. Bribes work if they award contracts and these guys are spiffy and are ensuring they award good contracts and take money. However in Delhi airport case it is a private project so confident politicians lined their pockets once while awarding it to GMR and now it is chugging along.
Indian operators have suffered because of various issues and inefficiencies built into the way they operate. Most of them are working on the ego of their owners with little or no experience. For all that is said of Indigo they are not cheap but marginally cheaper on some routes than others and in some cases strip you naked with their monopoly, yet they seem to be surviving. KF, GO, Spice are suffering from owner whose mind is distracted in several projects. Jet the little mans ego is too big for his own good and he is pulling along because of cash flows and AI inefficiencies. However he is one of the biggest lobbyist against FDI in Civil Aviation as his skeletons will come tumbling out.
In a nut shell while India is a tough environment to operate in, it is possible to make money if rational thoughts prevail and not 1 buck fairs and market share and brand valuation thoughts. Each Indian airline has suffered due to ego problems and the one that is pulling thru has played low key and kept out of the lime lite. Said on this forum earlier and rightfully
It is very easy to blame a government for everything and anything. This is an easy way out. Now to analyze your points
1) Fuel is heavily taxed: Correct it is especially at the state level and every city is different. However there are some states and cities that have dropped taxes to assist. Taxes on fuel are applicable only on domestic flights and there is low or no tax on international flights.
2) delhi Airport is a private operation with govt as a stake holder. After the billions that were spent on it a method to recover them is needed. Yes fees have been raised 775% but when the base number was so low ($1 or less in some cases) why don't we do an apples to apples comparison on a global basis as to what others charge. Same for landing fees which have been raised to the higher side. Cost of improving infrastructure when the country is broke due to people not paying their taxes.
3) Politicians lining their pockets instead of spending on infrastructure. Oxymoron actually as they cannot steal directly. Bribes work if they award contracts and these guys are spiffy and are ensuring they award good contracts and take money. However in Delhi airport case it is a private project so confident politicians lined their pockets once while awarding it to GMR and now it is chugging along.
Indian operators have suffered because of various issues and inefficiencies built into the way they operate. Most of them are working on the ego of their owners with little or no experience. For all that is said of Indigo they are not cheap but marginally cheaper on some routes than others and in some cases strip you naked with their monopoly, yet they seem to be surviving. KF, GO, Spice are suffering from owner whose mind is distracted in several projects. Jet the little mans ego is too big for his own good and he is pulling along because of cash flows and AI inefficiencies. However he is one of the biggest lobbyist against FDI in Civil Aviation as his skeletons will come tumbling out.
In a nut shell while India is a tough environment to operate in, it is possible to make money if rational thoughts prevail and not 1 buck fairs and market share and brand valuation thoughts. Each Indian airline has suffered due to ego problems and the one that is pulling thru has played low key and kept out of the lime lite. Said on this forum earlier and rightfully
Arrogance is there, it now takes intelligence to convert that into success.
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Confirm ...through security!
A bit off the subject but what is it with the Indian airports/controllers that, every time you ask for clearance you have to state the number of pax "through security"
I get the number of pax bit....but I still don't get the "through security" bull
!.
Is there any other answer they are expecting other than "affirm" or is there another way for the pax to get on without going through security?
What would happen if you say no!
Maybe its time they get over their antiquated ways and just accept the pax actually do have to go through security prior to getting on those big metal things we so lovingly refer to as airplanes!
I get the number of pax bit....but I still don't get the "through security" bull
!.Is there any other answer they are expecting other than "affirm" or is there another way for the pax to get on without going through security?
What would happen if you say no!
Maybe its time they get over their antiquated ways and just accept the pax actually do have to go through security prior to getting on those big metal things we so lovingly refer to as airplanes!
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Funny...
There's a lot of nonsensical, hilarious, downright useless things in the Incredible!...
Just keep in mind that they inherited century XVIII British bureaucracy, on its worse, and made it even more terrible with local creativity.
Another example: read local newspapers, there's a lot of words and expressions abolished long time ago from western English spoken countries. Some good 100 years will be necessary to fix this and many other things.
Just keep in mind that they inherited century XVIII British bureaucracy, on its worse, and made it even more terrible with local creativity.
Another example: read local newspapers, there's a lot of words and expressions abolished long time ago from western English spoken countries. Some good 100 years will be necessary to fix this and many other things.
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Dr... I did hear an overseas airline once telling BOM clearance that he could not confirm how the passengers got to the airbridge. They did not seem to see the humor in his comments!
Just like how Indian runways are never anything more than wet... Even in a monsoon rain and they are un grooved.... You can see the wheels kicking up the water as an aircraft passes... Yet they insist it is only "damp" or "wet"
Couple this with rubber all over the runway and screams to "expedite" from the controller...... Fine stuff, fine stuff!
Just like how Indian runways are never anything more than wet... Even in a monsoon rain and they are un grooved.... You can see the wheels kicking up the water as an aircraft passes... Yet they insist it is only "damp" or "wet"
Couple this with rubber all over the runway and screams to "expedite" from the controller...... Fine stuff, fine stuff!
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Wannabe,
While I agree management and ego has much to due with the problems with Indian airlines, I think you would agree the government does nothing but kick them when they are down.
Yes the airport authorities of India can charge what the want for fees, but they have many streams of revenue and it doesn't seem smart to raise fees on the fiscally poor performing airlines which are the reason the other revenue streams exist.
Politicians in India always find a way to line there pockets. You know the bids for those airports done by private contractors are most likely over bid and kickbacks given for the contract as is one of the usual tactics. Not enough tracking by the public into where the money is going in public projects.
Indigo is interesting because they don't have to give financials to the public. They are 49 percent owned by a US company and who knows what kind of sweetheart deal they have with airbus. JetBlue made much money it's first five years while it enjoyed no payments and maintanence costs, but when that deal ended they started having to work like the rest to survive.
One of the biggest money suckers is government red tape and the insufficient atc system which is the responsibility of the government. I wish I would have tracked the amount of holds, orbits, delay vectors, min clean speeds and turn it into a cost to the airlines figure. I can't tell you how many times I watched guys sitting on the ground completly unproductive because they had some medical issue that had nothing to do with affecting flight. How many guys sit on the ground because the dgca has lost their paperwork again... it's the perfect storm of incompetence, ego, and corruption that will keep a country of very nice people on their knees for many years to come.
While I agree management and ego has much to due with the problems with Indian airlines, I think you would agree the government does nothing but kick them when they are down.
Yes the airport authorities of India can charge what the want for fees, but they have many streams of revenue and it doesn't seem smart to raise fees on the fiscally poor performing airlines which are the reason the other revenue streams exist.
Politicians in India always find a way to line there pockets. You know the bids for those airports done by private contractors are most likely over bid and kickbacks given for the contract as is one of the usual tactics. Not enough tracking by the public into where the money is going in public projects.
Indigo is interesting because they don't have to give financials to the public. They are 49 percent owned by a US company and who knows what kind of sweetheart deal they have with airbus. JetBlue made much money it's first five years while it enjoyed no payments and maintanence costs, but when that deal ended they started having to work like the rest to survive.
One of the biggest money suckers is government red tape and the insufficient atc system which is the responsibility of the government. I wish I would have tracked the amount of holds, orbits, delay vectors, min clean speeds and turn it into a cost to the airlines figure. I can't tell you how many times I watched guys sitting on the ground completly unproductive because they had some medical issue that had nothing to do with affecting flight. How many guys sit on the ground because the dgca has lost their paperwork again...
it's the perfect storm of incompetence, ego, and corruption that will keep a country of very nice people on their knees for many years to come.
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Drive: I agreed with you on the point that kickbacks must have been given at the time of awarding the airport contract, however once that is done and in private hands, doubt the politician has an locus stand to ask for a kick back on say the Equipment being installed.
In regards to kick the management, every attempt is met with chest thumping and "public outcry". It is not easy to lay off 2,000 people for a private airline like Jet airways (the chairmen claimed that his dead mother came to him in his dreams and asked him to take back the people he had laid off!!!) so how can you imagine a govt organization laying of 25,000 people. I think the new aviation minister has done the correct thing by letting the 400 strikers bake in the heat and wear them down.
Yes Indigo is interesting and I did not know they are 49% US owned as to the best of my knowledge FDI in Aviation is not permitted. Will need to check that to confirm so a citation would be helpful. However as far as cutting sweet heart deals, no one stopped the other airlines from doing that and that is business nothing to do with the government.
Now I do not entirely disagree with you that the government is not doing enough to bolster the aviation sector, however i think some of the moves the aviation sector made initially are also partly responsible for the mess they are in. Where was the need for a Rs 1 fare, Why was your ego so big you had to buy Sahara, why did you have to buy a Deccan? If these guys had let these airlines die a natural death their balance sheet would have been much healthier today.
ALlow a natural selection and elimination to happen, government should make a serious attempt to revive and make AI an efficient airline and take some hard decisions. After Flying AI after a gap of 10 years last month I can definitely say the government has spent good money on air craft and offering, unfortunately the staff are entirely responsible for the mess and I would fire each and every one of those who was on the aircraft on that flight.
Corruption is in every country especially at the higher level. In India the problem is the "common man" himself is extremely corrupt and un ethical.
In regards to kick the management, every attempt is met with chest thumping and "public outcry". It is not easy to lay off 2,000 people for a private airline like Jet airways (the chairmen claimed that his dead mother came to him in his dreams and asked him to take back the people he had laid off!!!) so how can you imagine a govt organization laying of 25,000 people. I think the new aviation minister has done the correct thing by letting the 400 strikers bake in the heat and wear them down.
Yes Indigo is interesting and I did not know they are 49% US owned as to the best of my knowledge FDI in Aviation is not permitted. Will need to check that to confirm so a citation would be helpful. However as far as cutting sweet heart deals, no one stopped the other airlines from doing that and that is business nothing to do with the government.
Now I do not entirely disagree with you that the government is not doing enough to bolster the aviation sector, however i think some of the moves the aviation sector made initially are also partly responsible for the mess they are in. Where was the need for a Rs 1 fare, Why was your ego so big you had to buy Sahara, why did you have to buy a Deccan? If these guys had let these airlines die a natural death their balance sheet would have been much healthier today.
ALlow a natural selection and elimination to happen, government should make a serious attempt to revive and make AI an efficient airline and take some hard decisions. After Flying AI after a gap of 10 years last month I can definitely say the government has spent good money on air craft and offering, unfortunately the staff are entirely responsible for the mess and I would fire each and every one of those who was on the aircraft on that flight.
Corruption is in every country especially at the higher level. In India the problem is the "common man" himself is extremely corrupt and un ethical.
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FDI only applies to publicly traded companies in India and indigo is not publicly traded, hence the foreign 49 percent.
You still are not addressing the poor infrastructure, atc, red tape costing these airlines millions and promoting poor public images. In my four years in India I saw only a handfull of delays due to company issues. The government posts delay stats in the paper and fines airlines for habitually delayed flights, which are delayed due to atc and facility problems which the government controls. They put a stat on the news that jet has the most delays out of Mumbai without qualifying they have the most flights out of Mumbai. No percentages or reasons for the delay.
The latest government demand under review is for all airlines to have feeder aircraft to connect to smaller cities, without even an ounce of thought towards costs of buying new aircraft, staffing, maintaining, operating. Having this much control over the private sector business is not going to build a healthy industry ego or no ego.
I agree the ego played a major role in the impending demise of kingfisher and the financial problems of jet, but they are not only two suffering and the government in India makes it more difficult every step of the way. Have you been to the dgca office? It would be condemned as an unsafe fire hazard in most parts of the world. In no way can a efficient administration be run in a building like this. The tax money for these kinds of things isn't going where it should be. Ego in the government is just as big if not bigger than the CEOs of these airlines.
You still are not addressing the poor infrastructure, atc, red tape costing these airlines millions and promoting poor public images. In my four years in India I saw only a handfull of delays due to company issues. The government posts delay stats in the paper and fines airlines for habitually delayed flights, which are delayed due to atc and facility problems which the government controls. They put a stat on the news that jet has the most delays out of Mumbai without qualifying they have the most flights out of Mumbai. No percentages or reasons for the delay.
The latest government demand under review is for all airlines to have feeder aircraft to connect to smaller cities, without even an ounce of thought towards costs of buying new aircraft, staffing, maintaining, operating. Having this much control over the private sector business is not going to build a healthy industry ego or no ego.
I agree the ego played a major role in the impending demise of kingfisher and the financial problems of jet, but they are not only two suffering and the government in India makes it more difficult every step of the way. Have you been to the dgca office? It would be condemned as an unsafe fire hazard in most parts of the world. In no way can a efficient administration be run in a building like this. The tax money for these kinds of things isn't going where it should be. Ego in the government is just as big if not bigger than the CEOs of these airlines.
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Drive
I think you need to check your information about FDI and publicly traded companies only. FDI IN Civil Aviation Sector should help you understand it is sector agnostic and has nothing to do with public or private.
Note: FDI upto 49% was allowed in civil aviation public or private in the form of FII but direct participation of foreign airlines was and continues to be banned. I also am unable to find any information to show Indigo or parent company have FDI in them. However the 49% is applicable to all airlines and even Jet has 49% Foreign money in them directly or in directly so in a nut shell again a level playing field for all.
I agree on the poor infrastructure, however as is witnessed at Delhi the situation is now far better than when it was under the government. However this has come at a cost which one should be willing to bear. I am sure once Mumbai and other cities open up it will also improve. Note I am speaking only of that infrastructure that has been privatized. Also note that government only penalizes an airline for issues such as cancellations without informing and for combining flights or keeping passengers on board without facilities. I have not heard of an airline being penalized for having a bad on time performance.
.
Yes they are asking for feeder aircraft to better connect cities and do note smaller aircraft have lower or no landing fees and different fuel pricing structure. Also trust me when I say in 5 more years these feeder aircraft will carry in full pads of people from small villages as they become more affluent and need to connect internationally. I feel a great business opportunity is vein wasted away by many an airline here and not capitalizing on it fully.
Have you been to any government office in India? they are piss holes and fire hazards. This is the pure apathy towards other peoples money the users of these offices have and the mentality to release tenders to get work done as cheap as possible with no standards and quality. I am a strong proponent of governments not to be in business of making money but running countries. However much like Delhi and Bangalore airport, once private industry comes in and ups the quotient then the prices go up and the complaining on prices start. Chicken and egg story but no pain no gain.
An Indian will remember the Rs 1 fare of air deccan but will forget how the aircraft smelled, you had to fight for a seat, half the time a flight would be cancelled if the load factor was not there and all the other stupid quirks that actually made it a pissall experience to fly. 10 years later this is still quoted as a miracle man who made the common man fly. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
I think you need to check your information about FDI and publicly traded companies only. FDI IN Civil Aviation Sector should help you understand it is sector agnostic and has nothing to do with public or private.
Note: FDI upto 49% was allowed in civil aviation public or private in the form of FII but direct participation of foreign airlines was and continues to be banned. I also am unable to find any information to show Indigo or parent company have FDI in them. However the 49% is applicable to all airlines and even Jet has 49% Foreign money in them directly or in directly so in a nut shell again a level playing field for all.
I agree on the poor infrastructure, however as is witnessed at Delhi the situation is now far better than when it was under the government. However this has come at a cost which one should be willing to bear. I am sure once Mumbai and other cities open up it will also improve. Note I am speaking only of that infrastructure that has been privatized. Also note that government only penalizes an airline for issues such as cancellations without informing and for combining flights or keeping passengers on board without facilities. I have not heard of an airline being penalized for having a bad on time performance.
.
Yes they are asking for feeder aircraft to better connect cities and do note smaller aircraft have lower or no landing fees and different fuel pricing structure. Also trust me when I say in 5 more years these feeder aircraft will carry in full pads of people from small villages as they become more affluent and need to connect internationally. I feel a great business opportunity is vein wasted away by many an airline here and not capitalizing on it fully.
Have you been to any government office in India? they are piss holes and fire hazards. This is the pure apathy towards other peoples money the users of these offices have and the mentality to release tenders to get work done as cheap as possible with no standards and quality. I am a strong proponent of governments not to be in business of making money but running countries. However much like Delhi and Bangalore airport, once private industry comes in and ups the quotient then the prices go up and the complaining on prices start. Chicken and egg story but no pain no gain.
An Indian will remember the Rs 1 fare of air deccan but will forget how the aircraft smelled, you had to fight for a seat, half the time a flight would be cancelled if the load factor was not there and all the other stupid quirks that actually made it a pissall experience to fly. 10 years later this is still quoted as a miracle man who made the common man fly. I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
Last edited by Wannabe Flyer; 6th Jun 2012 at 11:01.
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Look up caelum investments in Virginia, they are 48 percent holders of indigo. Your correct I am not up to speed on the inner workings of FDI in India, but find it odd that the dgca is working on a plan (maybe) for FDI for the public companies and not for a private indigo. It most likely deals with shareholders and their expectations and voting rights and rights as holders of company stock.
Delhi is one of the only places in india with proper radar. Ground delays are only half the battle, pilots sequence themselves sometimes between three different control facilities at the same time, due to lack of coordination and infrastructure. There are excellent atc models available which don't need reinvented, but will be because of that ego you speak of.
It's not that feeder aircraft are a bad idea, it's the fact that the government shouldn't be requiring private companies to do it. They should stay out of ticket pricing and operations period. If they want to connect the villages and keep ticket prices low for the commen man, they run air India, go crazy, let the private companies die or survive on there own without the government pushing the knife in deeper.
I think we generally agree, I just see more government culpability than you. As an expat I dealt and saw the bs red tape and lost revenue for the airlines and there was nothing the airline could do to fix it. I have witnessed a pretty well run aviation industry from a government stand point as well as India's, so I may see more of the lost revenue. I can't tell you one properly managed airline on the other hand. It's a horribly money, infrastructure, labor intensive industry that grows itself into losses. As you said, how can you possibly make money selling tickets for 1 rs or even 200 usd? They just canabalize themselves and whoever has the most cash at the end wins.
Delhi is one of the only places in india with proper radar. Ground delays are only half the battle, pilots sequence themselves sometimes between three different control facilities at the same time, due to lack of coordination and infrastructure. There are excellent atc models available which don't need reinvented, but will be because of that ego you speak of.
It's not that feeder aircraft are a bad idea, it's the fact that the government shouldn't be requiring private companies to do it. They should stay out of ticket pricing and operations period. If they want to connect the villages and keep ticket prices low for the commen man, they run air India, go crazy, let the private companies die or survive on there own without the government pushing the knife in deeper.
I think we generally agree, I just see more government culpability than you. As an expat I dealt and saw the bs red tape and lost revenue for the airlines and there was nothing the airline could do to fix it. I have witnessed a pretty well run aviation industry from a government stand point as well as India's, so I may see more of the lost revenue. I can't tell you one properly managed airline on the other hand. It's a horribly money, infrastructure, labor intensive industry that grows itself into losses. As you said, how can you possibly make money selling tickets for 1 rs or even 200 usd? They just canabalize themselves and whoever has the most cash at the end wins.
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I visited the site with the article and it is "suspended" However HT has an article that elaborates
Surprise! Nearly half of IndiGo foreign-owned - Hindustan Times
From what I can understand Calieum investments is owned by an NRI who was also the ex CEO of US air. About the similar pattern 9W had before it went public and not breaking any rules.
DGCA is working on a plan for FDI from foreign carriers regardless of public or private. I have searched their website for a reference to what you are mentioning but cannot find that.
A private exercise in Delhi seems to have helped so lets hope the other airports get privatized soon.
DGCA has in past 18 months stopped the control of ticket prices to a great extent so that is behind us and fares have zoomed up.
That said the new minister seems to be taking some tough calls to send a message out so fingers crossed.
I still stand by my assertion it is the people and the system and not the government.
Surprise! Nearly half of IndiGo foreign-owned - Hindustan Times
From what I can understand Calieum investments is owned by an NRI who was also the ex CEO of US air. About the similar pattern 9W had before it went public and not breaking any rules.
DGCA is working on a plan for FDI from foreign carriers regardless of public or private. I have searched their website for a reference to what you are mentioning but cannot find that.
A private exercise in Delhi seems to have helped so lets hope the other airports get privatized soon.
DGCA has in past 18 months stopped the control of ticket prices to a great extent so that is behind us and fares have zoomed up.
That said the new minister seems to be taking some tough calls to send a message out so fingers crossed.
I still stand by my assertion it is the people and the system and not the government.
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If you look further into the chaps departure from US Air and the deals with Airbus... You might find it interesting.
Last edited by PT6A; 10th Jun 2012 at 13:30.
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Actually, petrol prices are among the most expensive in India, FYI.
Now Diesel is a different story
Comparison of Global Petrol Prices across the world with India
