VNA incident yesterday
it's putting the rest of us to sleep.
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The A321 is the most changeling one of the A320 Family. You have to be careful on the approach as it can only do one thing, decelerate or descend. Either way, if the previous posts are correct landing with autobrake low on runway with standing water wouldn't be my choice. I wonder what flap setting they were using...
Since this is a rumour network, I will do what it shouldn't be done on aircraft accident investigation which is jump into conclusions without a proper analysis of all the data. My bet goes to using the recommended procedure by the fleet for an approach on a normal day (no major weather) in order to save some fuel (low flap setting) and landing a little bit hot with also a low autobraking selection. The rest is history, but it raises the experience factor in order to have a good judgement on fleet recommended procedures.
Bets are on..
Check Six, Krueger
Since this is a rumour network, I will do what it shouldn't be done on aircraft accident investigation which is jump into conclusions without a proper analysis of all the data. My bet goes to using the recommended procedure by the fleet for an approach on a normal day (no major weather) in order to save some fuel (low flap setting) and landing a little bit hot with also a low autobraking selection. The rest is history, but it raises the experience factor in order to have a good judgement on fleet recommended procedures.
Bets are on..
Check Six, Krueger
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landing a little bit hot with also a low autobraking selection. The rest is history
I think I'll take up quarterbacking but first I've got to discover what they do
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A321 is by far the easiest 320 series to land. By a huge margin. It does land faster, but autobrakes kick in earlier and harder to compensate. Sweet.
Probably landed in a microburst. Again. I have seen the Viets take off and land in them routinely. Even worse. 25R/07L has the first half of RW 25R completely glazed over with rubber. In the wet, braking action is "nil". Nada. Zero. If you land 07L when wet you better have it sorted by the half way point or you are going for a Baja run. You will not stop.
If I could have guessed what would have been VNA's next bad accident, this would have been my number one and number two guess. Number one is taking off and landing in microbursts, number two is going 4 wheeling due to braking action nil in the wet on 25R/07L.
Luckily it sounds like no one was hurt. They dodged a bad one. Again. Won't last forever. Lucky streaks always end.
Probably landed in a microburst. Again. I have seen the Viets take off and land in them routinely. Even worse. 25R/07L has the first half of RW 25R completely glazed over with rubber. In the wet, braking action is "nil". Nada. Zero. If you land 07L when wet you better have it sorted by the half way point or you are going for a Baja run. You will not stop.
If I could have guessed what would have been VNA's next bad accident, this would have been my number one and number two guess. Number one is taking off and landing in microbursts, number two is going 4 wheeling due to braking action nil in the wet on 25R/07L.
Luckily it sounds like no one was hurt. They dodged a bad one. Again. Won't last forever. Lucky streaks always end.
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No indication in the Bus that the autobrake was kicked off.
Just no blue "on" and no green "decel" lights in the push button any more.
Just no blue "on" and no green "decel" lights in the push button any more.
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Well, a strong cough or sneeze can cause these folks to lose control....
to land. Caution crosswind!" on my last trip down there just a
while back.
I asked 'em three times what the hell they were blabbering on
about. Never got a reply of course.
If it had to happen better it had hapened with a local , not with a foreigner.
these days if the local captain stuffs up. Is that true?
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External distractions, lack of warning that something is amiss, busy bees trying to do their job in non-ideal circumstances..
DL
DOVE
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Wonderful!
I was amused by long discussions about metar, taf (they were actual meteo conditions!), about the A321 peculiarties, its autobrake, etc.; but only one: USMCProbe, mentioned the microbust. Apparently it has become a habit, to get into cumulonimbus and to operate take off and landings (like in this case) during a thunderstorm or in vicinity of a Cb. Perhaps I’m too old, but it seems that out there are too many bold.
For me and for all the airlines I flew with, always was (and still is), PROHIBITED.
They have been lucky not to finish into a smoking hole;
Thy went off the end of a 3000 mt long Rwy!
Fly Safe
DOVE
I was amused by long discussions about metar, taf (they were actual meteo conditions!), about the A321 peculiarties, its autobrake, etc.; but only one: USMCProbe, mentioned the microbust. Apparently it has become a habit, to get into cumulonimbus and to operate take off and landings (like in this case) during a thunderstorm or in vicinity of a Cb. Perhaps I’m too old, but it seems that out there are too many bold.
For me and for all the airlines I flew with, always was (and still is), PROHIBITED.
They have been lucky not to finish into a smoking hole;
Thy went off the end of a 3000 mt long Rwy!
Fly Safe
DOVE
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Word I get up here is they're back to blaming the foreign FO
these days if the local captain stuffs up. Is that true?
these days if the local captain stuffs up. Is that true?
It's become so bad that I will not put my family on any VNA flight. Nepotism in Flight Operations and Maintenance does not build a safe airline.
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Apparently it has become a habit, to get into cumulonimbus and to operate take off and landings (like in this case) during a thunderstorm or in vicinity of a Cb. Perhaps I’m too old, but it seems that out there are too many bold. For me and for all the airlines I flew with, always was (and still is), PROHIBITED.
Bold and arrogant! This is what they kids are. They will continue to do this until someone gets killed. Then, they're all gonna sit back and say, "...but that how my instructor tell me to do..." and the fact is, that this is what their "instructors" have been teaching! Mind you, those instructors have just slightly more experience than those four year captains, and graduated from the same place, the University of Nepotism.
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I refer to the Incident: Vietnam A321 at Ho Chi Minh on May 6th 2012, runway excursion. I was the captain of the aircraft following the said aircraft involved in the incident. My aircraft was about 10 miles behind the Airbus. Passed through a moderate shower of rain about 7 miles from touchdown but in clear conditions by 1500'. Good visibility from then on with wind from about 210° at 10 kts. (as per METAR) Runway looked wet associate with recent heavy rain. Needless to say we were instructed to carry out a Go-around. Landed about 20 minutes later on RWY 25L.
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Thanks for the post, exactly as the WX was described to me by another witness, basically no raining at all at the time. Have seen many FO's kick off auto brake many times when they anticipate a long roll out in places like DAD 35L and SGN 07L.
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I don't understand why your emphasis of A/B Mr Land - does
that mean you'd go around if it wasn't working?
Your kids sound much like our kids, but long rollouts on DRY
runways doesn't require A/B use down to 20kts and trundling
along for 10 mins to exit the runway. Maybe VNA policy but I
can't see the practicality.
Just been going over 07L in my log book - its a bitch when its
wet alright.
that mean you'd go around if it wasn't working?
Your kids sound much like our kids, but long rollouts on DRY
runways doesn't require A/B use down to 20kts and trundling
along for 10 mins to exit the runway. Maybe VNA policy but I
can't see the practicality.
Just been going over 07L in my log book - its a bitch when its
wet alright.
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It sounds to me like it went something like this….
The F/O was the landing pilot. He briefed the captain, "…blah blah blah, Auto-Brake Low, blah blah blah"
The captain was expecting the auto-brake to bring the aircraft to taxi speed, so after touch down he (as PNF) made all SOP calls, "…spoiler…reverser green…decel..." and then did what they always do after touch down; disengage the Auto-Brake, and…..
...Light up a cigarette, turn on phone, send message to GF/Wife and start packing stolen beer into flight bag….
By the time the captain had all this stuff done, those eleven seconds were up and he realized that the F/O was doing exactly the same things as him (stolen beer,etc) because he, the F/O, thought that the captain had control of said aircraft. Then, he (Captain) panicked and stood on the brakes…Sorry, by Vina engrish…."...stood on the BREAKS…" Aircraft then loses tires and skids off runway… of course, the newspaper reads, "…blah blah blah….nothing happened…blah blah blah"
it's all quite simple when you look at the "…normal viet SOP…"
After dust settles, viet Captain calls VP or Chief Pilot and says that because foreigner pilot landing before him, the foreigner pilot leave air in unstable condition, so this broken airplane must be foreigner pilot fault. :roll eyes:
The F/O was the landing pilot. He briefed the captain, "…blah blah blah, Auto-Brake Low, blah blah blah"
The captain was expecting the auto-brake to bring the aircraft to taxi speed, so after touch down he (as PNF) made all SOP calls, "…spoiler…reverser green…decel..." and then did what they always do after touch down; disengage the Auto-Brake, and…..
...Light up a cigarette, turn on phone, send message to GF/Wife and start packing stolen beer into flight bag….
By the time the captain had all this stuff done, those eleven seconds were up and he realized that the F/O was doing exactly the same things as him (stolen beer,etc) because he, the F/O, thought that the captain had control of said aircraft. Then, he (Captain) panicked and stood on the brakes…Sorry, by Vina engrish…."...stood on the BREAKS…" Aircraft then loses tires and skids off runway… of course, the newspaper reads, "…blah blah blah….nothing happened…blah blah blah"
it's all quite simple when you look at the "…normal viet SOP…"
After dust settles, viet Captain calls VP or Chief Pilot and says that because foreigner pilot landing before him, the foreigner pilot leave air in unstable condition, so this broken airplane must be foreigner pilot fault. :roll eyes:
Last edited by PappyJ; 9th May 2012 at 06:56.
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Im sensing a promotion? A Management position perhaps or even a "Training capt" position? Medal, new BMW, and lots of commendations about "saving" all those pax lives in terribly adverse conditions??? Another HERO of the Communist republic of Vietnam............ Straight to the 777 fleet for you!
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What is that phrase.."Slippery when wet"...So..it seems to apply to runways too eh!!!
Boeing777-200ER..you little devil you.!...
Boeing777-200ER..you little devil you.!...
