More captains busted !
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guys i know this is a stupid question ,but when these fraudsters get caught and get blacklisted by DGCA , are these folks eligible to apply for a foreign airline and start fresh in another country, if they fake the documents like letter from previous employer n stuff ? i know its a lame question but curisoity got the best of me 
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the trouble with people like masalama is that they dont realise the gravity of the situation. this is a problem amongst many Indian pilots, who think that any issue is an 'indian pilot vs foreign pilot one.'
something has to be done quickly to address the situation. but everyone knows the Indian style and pace of doing things. this problem has been there for years, and only surfaced thanks to the nosewheel touchdowns of the lady captain, and the no nonsense approach of Zaidi and Bhusan.
you can be rest assured that there are many more fakes in the system, some of whom may fly your own family, masalama.
but then, maybe you are a fake too!!!
go clean your house before pointing fingers
i wish i could say, have a safe flight
something has to be done quickly to address the situation. but everyone knows the Indian style and pace of doing things. this problem has been there for years, and only surfaced thanks to the nosewheel touchdowns of the lady captain, and the no nonsense approach of Zaidi and Bhusan.
you can be rest assured that there are many more fakes in the system, some of whom may fly your own family, masalama.
but then, maybe you are a fake too!!!
go clean your house before pointing fingers
i wish i could say, have a safe flight
The Bumblebee
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rdr,
I was trying to stay away from this thread but I didn't like the tone of your post. I fully agree with Masalama, you cannot generalise and say that all Indians hold fake license. I am sure a few Indians are not the first ones to fake paper work, there had been many cases in the world with people flying with fake license.
Yes, we have worked hard to get our license. I hold FAA, JAA, DGCA (India) and now Vietnamese license. Are you telling me that I acquired all these with fake paper work? May be every time a pilot is caught doing something wrong we can stamp all the pilots from the same country as culprits! Next time an American/European pilot is caught drunk at an airport the rest of the world should stop the rest of the American/European pilots from flying over their countries?
Masalama never said that people who faked their license/paper work should not be punished. All he is said is that one should not generalise the whole nation for the action of a few pilots.
Happy landings.
I was trying to stay away from this thread but I didn't like the tone of your post. I fully agree with Masalama, you cannot generalise and say that all Indians hold fake license. I am sure a few Indians are not the first ones to fake paper work, there had been many cases in the world with people flying with fake license.
Yes, we have worked hard to get our license. I hold FAA, JAA, DGCA (India) and now Vietnamese license. Are you telling me that I acquired all these with fake paper work? May be every time a pilot is caught doing something wrong we can stamp all the pilots from the same country as culprits! Next time an American/European pilot is caught drunk at an airport the rest of the world should stop the rest of the American/European pilots from flying over their countries?
Masalama never said that people who faked their license/paper work should not be punished. All he is said is that one should not generalise the whole nation for the action of a few pilots.
Happy landings.
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there are brilliant pilots in India, just like any other country in the world. this is not about any Indian pilot. it is about the systemic disgrace we call aviation in India. Indian pilots have to stand up to the truth about what the DGCA, MOCA, etc are all about. it is sad to see this sort of thing being posted time and again in this forum.
as for my tone and generalisation, perhaps its wake up time after all.
btw, 57 pilots were caught for DUI last year.
as for my tone and generalisation, perhaps its wake up time after all.
btw, 57 pilots were caught for DUI last year.
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Sad state of affairs
..and another one bites the dust. Yet there isn't a follow-up done on this issue by the media. It is very disappointing to see that in every thread regarding Indian Aviation, we end up blaming the system (in this case, the DGCA). It is about time the DGCA comes clean. No-nosense approaches by Mr.Zaidi and Mr.Bhushan have triggered fear among the 'unqualified' babus within the DGCA who think they can get away with everything. I just hope the investigation cracks down on some of these people and many more of the pilots who fly our airlines carrying fake licences (CPL and ATPL). Our non-transparent exam system, outdated syllabus, hefty bribes being paid to clear the exams - this is such a disgrace to our aviation industry. I'm pretty sure the 'highly influential' ones will go scot free regarding this issue - of course, what are bribes for? How frustrated can you get when you think some guy who doesn't even bother to prepare for these exams, shows up at the exam centre with so much confidence knowing he would pass the exam when his 'big-shot Daddy' has taken care of the situation already. God help us. This has to stop. Even if there is a petition signed against the exam system and the syllabus by the 3000 odd pilots, we can bring about a change - a change for good.
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Chuck,
Not sure what years or fleets you're referring to specifically, but during the period I was there (2000-2005) there was little if any of what you've referred to going on the fleet I was involved with (A330). The Alteon instructors then were mostly top notch, particularly BV & DB who both put a lot into providing a good training experience.
Likewise, there were no obvious "fakers" on the fleet though there were certainly some who were not as strong as others. Overall the experience level was high and there were very few who ran into problems on a proficiency level. Now, relationships with the company and with some of the Korean pilots, that was another story that sounds like is still going on.
Not sure where things are at these days, but if KE is attracting more than its share of fakes and posers there may be a good reason for that. If you want those with experience and options to look your way you need to be offering a decent and positive work environment. From friends still there it seems that's something that still isn't too high up the to do list for Chairman Cho's minions.
ELAC
Not sure what years or fleets you're referring to specifically, but during the period I was there (2000-2005) there was little if any of what you've referred to going on the fleet I was involved with (A330). The Alteon instructors then were mostly top notch, particularly BV & DB who both put a lot into providing a good training experience.
Likewise, there were no obvious "fakers" on the fleet though there were certainly some who were not as strong as others. Overall the experience level was high and there were very few who ran into problems on a proficiency level. Now, relationships with the company and with some of the Korean pilots, that was another story that sounds like is still going on.
Not sure where things are at these days, but if KE is attracting more than its share of fakes and posers there may be a good reason for that. If you want those with experience and options to look your way you need to be offering a decent and positive work environment. From friends still there it seems that's something that still isn't too high up the to do list for Chairman Cho's minions.
ELAC
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one more air india pilot has been arrested .same old story....
Now, Air India pilot arrested for forging papers - The Times of India
Now, Air India pilot arrested for forging papers - The Times of India
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The real question is when are the dgca members involved going to get arrested? I find it very interesting they are arresting pilots only, but don't seem to be worried about the other side of the transaction. As usual the dgca can do no wrong.
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drfive73
You are right. Whats the use of DCGA? This authority have to check your initial licence and then after issuing tha ATPL. And how can a company employe you without scrutinizing your licence? This shows there is a syndicate between the concerned party.
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I am an Indian pilot, trained in the USA, with completely legit papers.
Firstly, pilots with any form of fake papers are committing grave mistakes, because unlike in other professions, proper qualifications are required not just for your safety but for hundreds depending on you.
Having said that, everyone should realise that this would have been impossible had their been a stronger administration controlling this. To be frank, DGCA is a joke. Its corruption runs as deep as its ignorance to anything related to flying. Simple matters such as fake marks sheets can be cross-shecked so easily if someone bothered or cared, but no, money talks.
We have all been cribbing about DGCA and its shameful standards for a while now; isn't there anything we can do?
Firstly, pilots with any form of fake papers are committing grave mistakes, because unlike in other professions, proper qualifications are required not just for your safety but for hundreds depending on you.
Having said that, everyone should realise that this would have been impossible had their been a stronger administration controlling this. To be frank, DGCA is a joke. Its corruption runs as deep as its ignorance to anything related to flying. Simple matters such as fake marks sheets can be cross-shecked so easily if someone bothered or cared, but no, money talks.
We have all been cribbing about DGCA and its shameful standards for a while now; isn't there anything we can do?
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On a daily basis, there articles concerning unqualified pilots are appearing in news papers in India, ie... Times of India, Hidu Times. It appears, on the surface, there is a clear and present danger that there are far more unqualified airmen acting as PIC then meets the eye.
It appears this is an increasing systemic problem coming to the surface. Perhaps other countries should consider scrutiny equal to that of Indonesia carriers and their pilots too.
Airlines establish and or emphasize procedures when one or two pilots err from the straight and narrow or find themselves in trouble.
Countries ban foreign carriers from there soil if their is evidence of violations of safety of operation too.
This situation deserves attention by other countries as it is evident that malfeasance is afoot. I feel bad for those who may be put under undo scrutiny because of the few who were so arrogant to think that the regulations promulgated by the DGCA does not appy to them.
If the DGCA won't take action then the aviation authorities around the world should.
It appears this is an increasing systemic problem coming to the surface. Perhaps other countries should consider scrutiny equal to that of Indonesia carriers and their pilots too.
Airlines establish and or emphasize procedures when one or two pilots err from the straight and narrow or find themselves in trouble.
Countries ban foreign carriers from there soil if their is evidence of violations of safety of operation too.
This situation deserves attention by other countries as it is evident that malfeasance is afoot. I feel bad for those who may be put under undo scrutiny because of the few who were so arrogant to think that the regulations promulgated by the DGCA does not appy to them.
If the DGCA won't take action then the aviation authorities around the world should.
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Banning Indian carriers in other countires will never happen. Why? Simple economics.First, Boeing and Airbus are falling over themselves to sell Indian carriers airplanes by the dozen. You need to just pick up any Aviation Week & Space Technolgy to confirm that.All the Indian govt has to do is to ask the private carriers to cancel their multi billion dollars worth of orders and both Boeing and Airbus will cry foul to their respective governments. The carriers will not be affected. They will simply buy Embraers from Brazil and keep on trucking.Who loses?
Second, the retalition from the Indian govt.will be swift. Foreign carriers will have to submit the bonafides of their pilots for the carriers to continue operations to and from India. If we take the emotion out and look at this scenario objectively, we will have to acknowledge that India will not be the loser.
The solution is in taking baby steps. I believe the DGCA ,under the current leadership,is doing just that. Scrutinize and punish the defaulters (Pilots and Airlines who hired them included) .Tighten the oversight. Make the ATPL exam a little more realistic and do away with the very subjective Oral part.Ultimately, the tide will turn.Clean house. But one room at a time. As to changing the corrupt culture.That will never happen. You see the Indian philosophy is : the end justifies the means.
And ,finally, might I dare suggest, all this talk of banning Indian carriers to operate into other countries is a bad case of schadenfruede?A lot of expats are smarting at the new DGCA medical requirements and the fact that the FATA is on it's way out and Indian (un)qualified pilots are being accomodated at the cost of the expats jobs and so on. Guys ,I feel for you.But I also know ,you want nothing more than to see Indian Aviation fall flat on it's face. A.KA. The Smoking Hole.
Fire at will.
Alt3
Second, the retalition from the Indian govt.will be swift. Foreign carriers will have to submit the bonafides of their pilots for the carriers to continue operations to and from India. If we take the emotion out and look at this scenario objectively, we will have to acknowledge that India will not be the loser.
The solution is in taking baby steps. I believe the DGCA ,under the current leadership,is doing just that. Scrutinize and punish the defaulters (Pilots and Airlines who hired them included) .Tighten the oversight. Make the ATPL exam a little more realistic and do away with the very subjective Oral part.Ultimately, the tide will turn.Clean house. But one room at a time. As to changing the corrupt culture.That will never happen. You see the Indian philosophy is : the end justifies the means.
And ,finally, might I dare suggest, all this talk of banning Indian carriers to operate into other countries is a bad case of schadenfruede?A lot of expats are smarting at the new DGCA medical requirements and the fact that the FATA is on it's way out and Indian (un)qualified pilots are being accomodated at the cost of the expats jobs and so on. Guys ,I feel for you.But I also know ,you want nothing more than to see Indian Aviation fall flat on it's face. A.KA. The Smoking Hole.
Fire at will.
Alt3
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The real Indian issue.
Thanks for a clean tread (almost) without the usual "racist" BS associated with discussing these grave and urgent issues. Thanks also for some post nailing some of the problems.
Unfortunately, the real issue is not if someone is "improving" his or hers papers. The real issue is:
1.-The DGCA papers are in-comprehensive and without relevance to safe flying.
2.-The no-"fee"/no result system.
3.-The Light Prop directly to Medium Jet transition.
4.-The Indian Aviation Klondike scene.
1.- Minimum requirement is a syllabus + relevant study material + known question types (within the syllabus). If genuine results does not improve your competence as a pilot, then bogus papers or not does not make a difference. Google JAR FCL or FAA to see how it shall be done. Sadly, the Brits left the Indians with an academic system based on "Memory Items Only" which, to this very day, has preventing them from "learning-by-understanding", and by making the tests in-comprehensive DGCA (and learning institutions in general) believes that they are at a higher academic level.
2.-And this opens for a market where for a small fee (actually less than the regular fee when taking the JAR ATPL theory exam) you can slip through. I know only of a handfull Indian colleagues who skipped the bribe and battled it out. The ongoing investigations may produce the wonder that the exams will be clean; I doubt, though.
3.-You cannot tell if an Indian pilot is a fake or not, because the entire Airline Ops Training is missing. I can tell within 10 minutes if my new co-pilot has flown abroad with a "real" airline, mostly because they have their operational priorities right. Those who come straight home with a fresh CPL from "Cheap Billīs Flying School" and start directly in the 737 right seat do not have a clue about anything ("This line represent True North, son") except "Yes,Sir".
"Unstabilised...Go Around"....?? On the moon!
Many of the young Indian pilots actually do a wonderful job after a short while, but the point is that they could in reality have done their training on MS Flight Sim and you cannot tell the difference, because they push the buttons well, know all the limits but dunno how to use them.
The big fraud is that these guys are offered a job WITHOUT PROPER TRAINING, and whatever little training they may get is based on.....You guest it: Endless recitations.
Memorise and repeat alone is NOT what makes a safe pilot.
4.-I failed an F/O on his captains upgrade as he could not answer correctly one single of many elementary and easy questions. The company passed him on grounds that they needed him "and we have to use whatever is available". That makes my blood freeze (I am no longer doing captain selections), and it demonstrates The Real Problem: Demand greatly outnumbers supply of qualified pilots here (I know you wannabes feel differently), so we have to do with whatever is available. This is not only an Indian thing; over the years there have been peaks in World Pilot Recruitment where we saw some very marginal pilots landing an airline job, but nothing compared to present day India. And they were given rigorous training once they had joined the airlines.
No, I do not endorse bogus hours/exams/competence, but my real worry is an environment where you have to land repeatedly on the nose wheel to be singled out.
Be careful out there, T.
Unfortunately, the real issue is not if someone is "improving" his or hers papers. The real issue is:
1.-The DGCA papers are in-comprehensive and without relevance to safe flying.
2.-The no-"fee"/no result system.
3.-The Light Prop directly to Medium Jet transition.
4.-The Indian Aviation Klondike scene.
1.- Minimum requirement is a syllabus + relevant study material + known question types (within the syllabus). If genuine results does not improve your competence as a pilot, then bogus papers or not does not make a difference. Google JAR FCL or FAA to see how it shall be done. Sadly, the Brits left the Indians with an academic system based on "Memory Items Only" which, to this very day, has preventing them from "learning-by-understanding", and by making the tests in-comprehensive DGCA (and learning institutions in general) believes that they are at a higher academic level.
2.-And this opens for a market where for a small fee (actually less than the regular fee when taking the JAR ATPL theory exam) you can slip through. I know only of a handfull Indian colleagues who skipped the bribe and battled it out. The ongoing investigations may produce the wonder that the exams will be clean; I doubt, though.
3.-You cannot tell if an Indian pilot is a fake or not, because the entire Airline Ops Training is missing. I can tell within 10 minutes if my new co-pilot has flown abroad with a "real" airline, mostly because they have their operational priorities right. Those who come straight home with a fresh CPL from "Cheap Billīs Flying School" and start directly in the 737 right seat do not have a clue about anything ("This line represent True North, son") except "Yes,Sir".
"Unstabilised...Go Around"....?? On the moon!
Many of the young Indian pilots actually do a wonderful job after a short while, but the point is that they could in reality have done their training on MS Flight Sim and you cannot tell the difference, because they push the buttons well, know all the limits but dunno how to use them.
The big fraud is that these guys are offered a job WITHOUT PROPER TRAINING, and whatever little training they may get is based on.....You guest it: Endless recitations.
Memorise and repeat alone is NOT what makes a safe pilot.
4.-I failed an F/O on his captains upgrade as he could not answer correctly one single of many elementary and easy questions. The company passed him on grounds that they needed him "and we have to use whatever is available". That makes my blood freeze (I am no longer doing captain selections), and it demonstrates The Real Problem: Demand greatly outnumbers supply of qualified pilots here (I know you wannabes feel differently), so we have to do with whatever is available. This is not only an Indian thing; over the years there have been peaks in World Pilot Recruitment where we saw some very marginal pilots landing an airline job, but nothing compared to present day India. And they were given rigorous training once they had joined the airlines.
No, I do not endorse bogus hours/exams/competence, but my real worry is an environment where you have to land repeatedly on the nose wheel to be singled out.
Be careful out there, T.
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Capt Turbo....
super cool....yeah u r right...
everything is about an Indian Issue!!
the whole system is to blame...straight from cpl to right seat of the jets..
cant begin to land properly and the sole thot is to move seats already.
move left and then move rapidly up the ladder.check pilot and the like.
competence is not the issue here.just the requirement.
And there is no wonder why people will not pay for fake papers and exam resiult fixing.Because if u wait for the exams the right and transparent way it cud mean a lifetime with all the paperwork and wait involved.(month and more to get licence issue) and now u know the verification processes involved are also ineffective!!
wait every three months to answer and get results for ATPL/viva
fixing seemed the easy way out considering the rapid progress after.
And also for all the Indian vs expat issue..
so much for the indians pointing to wanting the expats out of there.
they(companies) have much more experienced expats doing the same jobs for much lesser the amount of money what with retainer sals for turbo props commanders.only in india there can be such a huge discrepancy of salaries between nationalities doing same jobs!! (racist u wud say in other countries?)
but noone seems to be complaining!!
its the Indian Issue alright!!
super cool....yeah u r right...
everything is about an Indian Issue!!
the whole system is to blame...straight from cpl to right seat of the jets..
cant begin to land properly and the sole thot is to move seats already.
move left and then move rapidly up the ladder.check pilot and the like.
competence is not the issue here.just the requirement.
And there is no wonder why people will not pay for fake papers and exam resiult fixing.Because if u wait for the exams the right and transparent way it cud mean a lifetime with all the paperwork and wait involved.(month and more to get licence issue) and now u know the verification processes involved are also ineffective!!
wait every three months to answer and get results for ATPL/viva
fixing seemed the easy way out considering the rapid progress after.
And also for all the Indian vs expat issue..
so much for the indians pointing to wanting the expats out of there.
they(companies) have much more experienced expats doing the same jobs for much lesser the amount of money what with retainer sals for turbo props commanders.only in india there can be such a huge discrepancy of salaries between nationalities doing same jobs!! (racist u wud say in other countries?)
but noone seems to be complaining!!
its the Indian Issue alright!!
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Dear Capt Turbo,
As an experienced pilot(?) do you really believe in media rubbish that the pilot landed repeatedly on nose wheel? If not then please don't propogate these idiotic reports circulated by scribes who have no clue what landing a jet is all about.
As an experienced pilot(?) do you really believe in media rubbish that the pilot landed repeatedly on nose wheel? If not then please don't propogate these idiotic reports circulated by scribes who have no clue what landing a jet is all about.
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By the looks of things the reporters are just as qualified to fly under the DGCA banner as anyone else.
Turbo: great post. These fools have not witnessed it and therefore deny it. Head in the sand mentality. I witnessed similar events to you and resigned. Just look at the level of grammar used in a lot of the posts to gauge the standard of what an apparent professional airman is considered as.
What's worse is that they do see a lot of the crap but accept and believe it as normal and standard.
As mentioned earlier, I / we would like to say "stay safe", "safe flying" or "happy [nose wheel] landings" but best to say "be lucky".
Turbo: great post. These fools have not witnessed it and therefore deny it. Head in the sand mentality. I witnessed similar events to you and resigned. Just look at the level of grammar used in a lot of the posts to gauge the standard of what an apparent professional airman is considered as.
What's worse is that they do see a lot of the crap but accept and believe it as normal and standard.
As mentioned earlier, I / we would like to say "stay safe", "safe flying" or "happy [nose wheel] landings" but best to say "be lucky".
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Put these guys / girls photo's , names , personal and license details in the newspapers and on TV , make it known what'll happen when people do things like faking their licenses and endangering the lives of normal passengers and permanently revoke their licenses for life , no more licenses period . Make an example for those who think they'll get away with it , just do it and see what happens