Miles Above in Unsafe Hands
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Of course there are more chances of becoming a president if you are president's son. History proves that.
At the same time, if you had Garima Passi for your friend and you happen to have a medium size car, you will think twice before letting her drive it.
But we don't seem to think the same way when fare paying passengers are flown in a commercial jet.
BTW nobody seems to be proposing the theory you say you don't agree to.
At the same time, if you had Garima Passi for your friend and you happen to have a medium size car, you will think twice before letting her drive it.
But we don't seem to think the same way when fare paying passengers are flown in a commercial jet.
BTW nobody seems to be proposing the theory you say you don't agree to.
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This naming of names has to stop. I am surprised the moderators have permitted it.
No one here has any right to do so unless this has already been released to the public showing credibility and evidence as to the person's credentials or lack there of. The original post was an excerpt from a published and researched, supported article. To speculate and bring down someone else on an ANONYMOUS forum is cowardly.
Sure, all the "beliefs" seem to point to one direction but unless you have cold, hard FACTS that have already been made public then you have no right to do it here.
And if you feel the need to do so then try to make it some kind of level playing field and allow the world to know who the accusers are. Please release YOUR NAME. To slander someone on a global forum under the guise of anonymity does not wash.
There are few more critical of the Indian Aviation sector than myself, but I have never publicly named names.
And for once I do agree with Jimmygill: if you're the son of, say, a doctor, politician or pilot then you are naturally more exposed to that field, that profession and that environment than most. That will aid you in your preparation, your study techniques, etc. Now, I am am by NO WAY defending or claiming that these mentioned people are innocent but to label them guilty without hard FACTS other than a parental commonality is just not cricket, as you guys will say.
No one here has any right to do so unless this has already been released to the public showing credibility and evidence as to the person's credentials or lack there of. The original post was an excerpt from a published and researched, supported article. To speculate and bring down someone else on an ANONYMOUS forum is cowardly.
Sure, all the "beliefs" seem to point to one direction but unless you have cold, hard FACTS that have already been made public then you have no right to do it here.
And if you feel the need to do so then try to make it some kind of level playing field and allow the world to know who the accusers are. Please release YOUR NAME. To slander someone on a global forum under the guise of anonymity does not wash.
There are few more critical of the Indian Aviation sector than myself, but I have never publicly named names.
And for once I do agree with Jimmygill: if you're the son of, say, a doctor, politician or pilot then you are naturally more exposed to that field, that profession and that environment than most. That will aid you in your preparation, your study techniques, etc. Now, I am am by NO WAY defending or claiming that these mentioned people are innocent but to label them guilty without hard FACTS other than a parental commonality is just not cricket, as you guys will say.
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HY Samant is CFOI.. Chief Flight Operations Inspector, If I had witnessed Aditi Samant crashing a C-150 and repeatedly failing even FAA writtens, and getting Indian CPL way before me, and getting hired during the downturn of industry. And if I want my license to be secure and I go and report it with my signatures in highlight, I shall not be called brave, I should be called stupid.
Bravery matters when the battle is fair, in an unfair battle tact is more important.
Remember I cannot go back to states and hope for a flying career there instead of here.
Seems you believe the original article was a researched piece and what has been mentioned here by others is worthless, I respect your right to have that belief. At the same time every reader here has a right to bring his/her interpretation and figure out what is truth and what not.
Equating anonymity with cowardice could have been an acceptable idea in middle ages not in 21st century.
Bravery matters when the battle is fair, in an unfair battle tact is more important.
Remember I cannot go back to states and hope for a flying career there instead of here.
Seems you believe the original article was a researched piece and what has been mentioned here by others is worthless, I respect your right to have that belief. At the same time every reader here has a right to bring his/her interpretation and figure out what is truth and what not.
Equating anonymity with cowardice could have been an acceptable idea in middle ages not in 21st century.
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And we disagree (again) then....
To publicly name someone under the cloak of anonymity where there is no onus to provide facts or innocence is cowardly. I DO NOT equate anonymity with cowardice. I equate the use of anonymity to slander anothers' charactor as such.
Who's to say that this anonymity is not used to further a campaign based on other (outside aviation) agendas? A personal dislike or vendetta?
If you cannot back it up, don't stand it up. And if one's integrity is so low as to stoop to accusations behind closed doors then a "professional" career in any industry will not become you.
There are laws protecting "slander" and pprune has in the past walked a fine line and has had legal cases bought against it for this reason.
If you have the desire to bring about FACTS that can be supported then do so. Anger at being unemployed and publicly naming those whom you believe to be not as good as yourself does not justify trying to ruin a person's name and credibility. Sure, the belief suggests a true accusation, but without evidence it is hollow and reeks of "sour grapes."
I respect research, I respect integrity and professionalism. I do not respect gossip and anonymous backstabbing.
(PS: I know of a few GA's operators who hired pilots due to the fact that they had had a wheels up landing, or kept employing a pilot who did the same. The views of these owner/operators was that these guys will never do the same again due that experience.)
To publicly name someone under the cloak of anonymity where there is no onus to provide facts or innocence is cowardly. I DO NOT equate anonymity with cowardice. I equate the use of anonymity to slander anothers' charactor as such.
Who's to say that this anonymity is not used to further a campaign based on other (outside aviation) agendas? A personal dislike or vendetta?
If you cannot back it up, don't stand it up. And if one's integrity is so low as to stoop to accusations behind closed doors then a "professional" career in any industry will not become you.
There are laws protecting "slander" and pprune has in the past walked a fine line and has had legal cases bought against it for this reason.
If you have the desire to bring about FACTS that can be supported then do so. Anger at being unemployed and publicly naming those whom you believe to be not as good as yourself does not justify trying to ruin a person's name and credibility. Sure, the belief suggests a true accusation, but without evidence it is hollow and reeks of "sour grapes."
I respect research, I respect integrity and professionalism. I do not respect gossip and anonymous backstabbing.
(PS: I know of a few GA's operators who hired pilots due to the fact that they had had a wheels up landing, or kept employing a pilot who did the same. The views of these owner/operators was that these guys will never do the same again due that experience.)
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Most of you are wrong! Please excuse.
You lot are barking up the wrong tree!!
The person in question has passed the DGCA medical. That person probably has at least one university degree.
Where do flying skills and competence come into the equation?? As long as they stay miles above my head I will be happy!
The person in question has passed the DGCA medical. That person probably has at least one university degree.
Where do flying skills and competence come into the equation?? As long as they stay miles above my head I will be happy!
Last edited by weido_salt; 18th Aug 2010 at 03:44.
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So if I book a seat on a VT reg aircraft am I more likely to be served by a competent & highly professional crew void of corrupted training & standards, or the opposite; statistically speaking?
Besides safety, the concern is also about 'fairness'.
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If anonymity is not a acceptable in accusing, than whats the moral bases of Litigation in Anonymity accepted in so many countries with a modern judicial system.
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@aditya104,
I am a part of Indian Aviation System, Yes. But I am not yet a part of the Indian Airline System. And going by the trend, things are but gloomy.
@Toptup,
Every post that you write, there is something I learn from it. I wonder how it would be to fly with you.
But well. Anonymity or Taking names, Our views on this website, or any other, are not going to change a lot of things for the ones being criticized. But when I think about it, there is nothing else I can do. Because If i question the operator, they will repeat the reason you stated
But then Again, No persons integrity is worth any less than another.
It is a complicated situation.
@silent_scream u r already part of the system, believe it or not!
@Toptup,
Every post that you write, there is something I learn from it. I wonder how it would be to fly with you.
But well. Anonymity or Taking names, Our views on this website, or any other, are not going to change a lot of things for the ones being criticized. But when I think about it, there is nothing else I can do. Because If i question the operator, they will repeat the reason you stated
The views of these owner/operators was that these guys will never do the same again due that experience
It is a complicated situation.
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calm down guys
know a thing or two about indian aviation...faa comm 1996...indian 1997..finally employed 2002..first command 2006...second in 2008..currently on the bus..
prop strike in ab initio trg....landing on a taxiway/wrong runway...failing an faa exam...failing a checkride/recurrent sim...do any of the above mean you are incapable of making it as a pilot..a big NO!
guys all Training caters for "corrective training" which helps trainees/line crew to get upto the standards required by faa/dgca/airlines by imparting extra training flights/sim sessions...at the same time getting your first solo within 6hrs does not make you Top Gun...
yes we are all concerned about safety standards in the aftermath of the mangalore tragedy..but lets not trivialise the issue and take names of sons/daughters of dgca officials...being unemployed for 6 six long frustrating yrs, i share the pain of our out of job cpl holders...all i can say is hang in there..keep trying...aviation offers no shortcuts..you cant fault rahul gandhi for entering politics or abhishek into bollywood...
at the same time..please do not doubt the training standards of airlines or the trainers..we do fail people..not everyone has the same learning curve ...be assured you are SAFE when you fly in a commercial airliner in a VT aircraft (whoever made that comment needs to be.
...)...also a mere atpl does not overnight make you a captain...there are other reqts and a whole lot of training and checks..SAFETY is a big issue and we have come a long way in implementing a lot of safe practices..it will take time...
finally...not every flight is a mission against the Taliban even though some flights are challenging..short fields/critical fields ...
most flights are totally uneventful and very pleasant..yes you do get shaken up once a month..thats when you need to perform and keep your wits about you...I let my 250 hr fo's land under condtions specified in the car and co. sop..most do a fine job..some dont...you correct them or take over (bus drivers need to press and take over!!)...SIMPLE!
prop strike in ab initio trg....landing on a taxiway/wrong runway...failing an faa exam...failing a checkride/recurrent sim...do any of the above mean you are incapable of making it as a pilot..a big NO!
guys all Training caters for "corrective training" which helps trainees/line crew to get upto the standards required by faa/dgca/airlines by imparting extra training flights/sim sessions...at the same time getting your first solo within 6hrs does not make you Top Gun...
yes we are all concerned about safety standards in the aftermath of the mangalore tragedy..but lets not trivialise the issue and take names of sons/daughters of dgca officials...being unemployed for 6 six long frustrating yrs, i share the pain of our out of job cpl holders...all i can say is hang in there..keep trying...aviation offers no shortcuts..you cant fault rahul gandhi for entering politics or abhishek into bollywood...
at the same time..please do not doubt the training standards of airlines or the trainers..we do fail people..not everyone has the same learning curve ...be assured you are SAFE when you fly in a commercial airliner in a VT aircraft (whoever made that comment needs to be.
...)...also a mere atpl does not overnight make you a captain...there are other reqts and a whole lot of training and checks..SAFETY is a big issue and we have come a long way in implementing a lot of safe practices..it will take time...finally...not every flight is a mission against the Taliban even though some flights are challenging..short fields/critical fields ...
most flights are totally uneventful and very pleasant..yes you do get shaken up once a month..thats when you need to perform and keep your wits about you...I let my 250 hr fo's land under condtions specified in the car and co. sop..most do a fine job..some dont...you correct them or take over (bus drivers need to press and take over!!)...SIMPLE!
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TopTup
The article was released on Sunday in the DNA Newspaper 15th August 2010 and the name is clearly written on it of the so called said person who you all are discussing.
And yes the article is very true because am a Flight Instructor and we have been updated about it a few months ago with our FAA Advisory Council.
The article was released on Sunday in the DNA Newspaper 15th August 2010 and the name is clearly written on it of the so called said person who you all are discussing.
And yes the article is very true because am a Flight Instructor and we have been updated about it a few months ago with our FAA Advisory Council.
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Top,
You are right, I don't have much confidence in actual flying skills of a great many guys I fly with. Fortunatly they seem to be able to upgrade and have succesful careers, incedent free. I have seen a couple who I wouldn't want my family flying with, but it has been a couple of years and neither has had problems. These were guys who would flare and stop flying, letting the airplane just get blown off the runway. Or flare at 50ft and stop flying. But again no problems in 2 years so I don't know what to make other than the upgrade training must be descent. Whatever is happening they seem to be as safe as anyother country out there. I guess time will tell, but most are very smart and I think this coupled with extensive use and understanding of automation makes them safe.
You are right, I don't have much confidence in actual flying skills of a great many guys I fly with. Fortunatly they seem to be able to upgrade and have succesful careers, incedent free. I have seen a couple who I wouldn't want my family flying with, but it has been a couple of years and neither has had problems. These were guys who would flare and stop flying, letting the airplane just get blown off the runway. Or flare at 50ft and stop flying. But again no problems in 2 years so I don't know what to make other than the upgrade training must be descent. Whatever is happening they seem to be as safe as anyother country out there. I guess time will tell, but most are very smart and I think this coupled with extensive use and understanding of automation makes them safe.
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I know of a few GA's operators who hired pilots due to the fact that they had had a wheels up landing, or kept employing a pilot who did the same. The views of these owner/operators was that these guys will never do the same again due that experience
). Scorpilot... Good stuff !
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Silent: If we flew together then I would trust it would be professional and "fun". I would respect you, as I would trust you me as we would both operate as per the SOP's to alleviate the second guessing of each other. And, I will guarantee that sometimes I will, as you may, make some mistakes. I would not abuse you for correcting me, but thank you, and I trust (try always) to set a good cockpit environment for you to question me. No flight is "perfect" in every sense. On landing we'd go to the hotel, meet at the lobby, head out for some beers and some laughs and do it all over again.
drive73: Yes, "automation": the DUMB YET DUTIFUL device we place all out misconceived trust in (Weiner & Nagel, 1988). I agree with you regarding the "statistics" but the REALITY is more of luck than of safety. So, these guys get "lucky" because they stop flying at 50 ft. One day, perhaps, this will all come undone and people will again be wondering..."Who saw this coming!!"
So, a person runs with bulls year in, year out at Pamplona. Never been gored, but a few close calls that were neither reported in the media or to the hospital. Is what this person does or how he/she behaves classed as "safe"? No, it is "risky" and the very least. "LUCKY" at best. And that is the appeal of the event. These adrenalin trips and close calls, or foolhardy ignorance have no place in aviation. Yet the bull runner will be proud of his or her grand achievements...... (And no, I'm not criticising the event at Pamplona as such, just using it as a metaphor for potential misguided bravado or confidence).
Pulkahulk: Yes... It seems one level (GA) of organised aviation can get it right and has the balls to do so yet one responsible for an international carrier with approx 188 lives on board doesn't care about "standards".
Scorpilot: I wrote it. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. Mine, like yours is based on experience, I assume. So, no, I will not fly on a VT registered aircraft based on what I witnessed as a 777 TRE from the "overall" standard of pilot, training system, training departments and management, as well as that corrupted rubbish called the DGCA. Enjoy your lucky flights, as I will enjoy (as pax) a safe crew that I can be much, much, much, MUCH more certain that the pilots up the front were trained to a HIGH standard, there is good CRM and they EARNT their positions, unlike what this ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT.
drive73: Yes, "automation": the DUMB YET DUTIFUL device we place all out misconceived trust in (Weiner & Nagel, 1988). I agree with you regarding the "statistics" but the REALITY is more of luck than of safety. So, these guys get "lucky" because they stop flying at 50 ft. One day, perhaps, this will all come undone and people will again be wondering..."Who saw this coming!!"
So, a person runs with bulls year in, year out at Pamplona. Never been gored, but a few close calls that were neither reported in the media or to the hospital. Is what this person does or how he/she behaves classed as "safe"? No, it is "risky" and the very least. "LUCKY" at best. And that is the appeal of the event. These adrenalin trips and close calls, or foolhardy ignorance have no place in aviation. Yet the bull runner will be proud of his or her grand achievements...... (And no, I'm not criticising the event at Pamplona as such, just using it as a metaphor for potential misguided bravado or confidence).
Pulkahulk: Yes... It seems one level (GA) of organised aviation can get it right and has the balls to do so yet one responsible for an international carrier with approx 188 lives on board doesn't care about "standards".
Scorpilot: I wrote it. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. Mine, like yours is based on experience, I assume. So, no, I will not fly on a VT registered aircraft based on what I witnessed as a 777 TRE from the "overall" standard of pilot, training system, training departments and management, as well as that corrupted rubbish called the DGCA. Enjoy your lucky flights, as I will enjoy (as pax) a safe crew that I can be much, much, much, MUCH more certain that the pilots up the front were trained to a HIGH standard, there is good CRM and they EARNT their positions, unlike what this ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT.
Last edited by TopTup; 21st Aug 2010 at 17:48.
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hi again
@ Top Tup: with all due respect to your training qualifications,I would only advise you not to make one sweeping statement about training standards in India...flight safety/foqa are making their presence felt and dfdr's are constantly monitored...so are cvr's randomly..
we are still a developing country and our oldest pvt airline is about 17yrs old, the rest are 5 or less..it takes time for things to get standardised, you know that better than me..
as for the dgca...i dont think any of us would disagree with your views ...hope you share your expertise with us again as a trainer and see some positives...
we are still a developing country and our oldest pvt airline is about 17yrs old, the rest are 5 or less..it takes time for things to get standardised, you know that better than me..
as for the dgca...i dont think any of us would disagree with your views ...hope you share your expertise with us again as a trainer and see some positives...
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New or old airline, private or public, standards MUST NEVER be compromised. But they are from what I saw. My qualifications, like those of so many of my (expat & local Indian) colleagues were not welcomed when we spoke out against the corrupt system. So, we are/were replaced by those willing and more than able to bow to them.
But as seen here, we look for excuses to justify these pathetic standards.
I sincerely hope that standards lift. But, one has to accept the standard they are at now to be willing to change. AI seriously have delusions of grandeur, yet promote and encourage corruption, nepotism and bribery: safety and standards suffer to a (criminally) negligent standard. Again, just look at the entire reason for this thread!
I make such sweeping statements backed by my own experience, evidence and not something said lightly. In fact I am saddened by it that the profession I dedicated my life to out of pure passion and love for it is disgraced by what I experience(d).
But as seen here, we look for excuses to justify these pathetic standards.
I sincerely hope that standards lift. But, one has to accept the standard they are at now to be willing to change. AI seriously have delusions of grandeur, yet promote and encourage corruption, nepotism and bribery: safety and standards suffer to a (criminally) negligent standard. Again, just look at the entire reason for this thread!
I make such sweeping statements backed by my own experience, evidence and not something said lightly. In fact I am saddened by it that the profession I dedicated my life to out of pure passion and love for it is disgraced by what I experience(d).