Writ plea against engaging foreign pilots in India ...
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it seems the expats are preoccupied with one thought-"all Indians hate us"
In any pprune threads, before any Indian talks about the phasing out of expats-some irritated and affected users start complaining about
. Same is happening here.
@jimmygill-green sunglasses and perception truly
As saurabhm_101 clearly in English writes the importance and contributions of expats in India, some users have failed in their interpretation of the plea in legal language. Can't blame them for that. Read this easy to understand related news ‘DGCA should check record of expat pilots’
DGCA has got strict guidelines, checks, and training syllabus for Indians. When it comes to FATA, its not as safety-friendly as it ought to be. But things are changing.
In any pprune threads, before any Indian talks about the phasing out of expats-some irritated and affected users start complaining about
anti-foreigners BS emerging from India and infesting the forum and its threads. 
@jimmygill-green sunglasses and perception truly
As saurabhm_101 clearly in English writes the importance and contributions of expats in India, some users have failed in their interpretation of the plea in legal language. Can't blame them for that. Read this easy to understand related news ‘DGCA should check record of expat pilots’
DGCA has got strict guidelines, checks, and training syllabus for Indians. When it comes to FATA, its not as safety-friendly as it ought to be. But things are changing.
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I agree this is all 3rd world nonsense, that makes no sense. 
everything from DGCA to the ATC system there is far outdated and downright sucks.
The ATC system is about the worst in the world, they are unable to handle more the 8 aircraft at a time without it seeming like major confusion.
Guys please wake up and get in line with the rest of the world and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
everything from DGCA to the ATC system there is far outdated and downright sucks. The ATC system is about the worst in the world, they are unable to handle more the 8 aircraft at a time without it seeming like major confusion.
Guys please wake up and get in line with the rest of the world and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
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Hey capt-Purple,
Interesting to see that coming out of some-one actually looking to work in Asia & middle east, aye!!
...if these places don't make sense to you...how about working in 1st world of yours
.
We know its out dated & not the most advance, it needs upgrade, no one here has nay second thought about it. But saying a writ is nonsense, I'll have serious doubt about your understanding of a democratic society. Read my earlier post on the topic. We belong to a free, democratic system, if that makes any sense to you. We can & are allowed by our government to question the policy makers, & we can afford to do that. You think that's backward, well! think again....
Interesting to see that coming out of some-one actually looking to work in Asia & middle east, aye!!
...if these places don't make sense to you...how about working in 1st world of yours. We know its out dated & not the most advance, it needs upgrade, no one here has nay second thought about it. But saying a writ is nonsense, I'll have serious doubt about your understanding of a democratic society
. Read my earlier post on the topic. We belong to a free, democratic system, if that makes any sense to you. We can & are allowed by our government to question the policy makers, & we can afford to do that. You think that's backward, well! think again....
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Sorry to intervene in the slagging match, but just to go back to the original post for a second.
I think the point about required amount of pic time on type is quite justified. 100 hours pic on type equates to maybe one or two months job experience. Where in the world would an airline recruit direct entry contract captains with so little experience??
Having said that I don't know of any expats who had less than 500 hours pic on type on joining where I am now, most had much more.
Also I am not aware of any expats that pop down to their local family doctor for a quick check up to be declared fit to fly. All go through proper six monthly medical checks with approved aero-medical examiners from their home countries' aviation authorities.
So basically the requirements brought in the case are already being met or even exceeded.
edited to avoid joining said slagging match
I think the point about required amount of pic time on type is quite justified. 100 hours pic on type equates to maybe one or two months job experience. Where in the world would an airline recruit direct entry contract captains with so little experience??
Having said that I don't know of any expats who had less than 500 hours pic on type on joining where I am now, most had much more.
Also I am not aware of any expats that pop down to their local family doctor for a quick check up to be declared fit to fly. All go through proper six monthly medical checks with approved aero-medical examiners from their home countries' aviation authorities.
So basically the requirements brought in the case are already being met or even exceeded.
edited to avoid joining said slagging match
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Once the Indian Medical becomes compulsory for expats then 50% of them
will quit rather than actually go through it..
will quit rather than actually go through it..
That is very true......very true...
On a side note though maybe the DGCA should consider making their medical exams a little less stringent than the current NASA astronaut standards they use nowadays.....
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Yes, you should use the democratic system in India to vote for realistic medicals. If the most of the world with much larger and older aviation industries can manage to keep airplanes in the air without much of a problem, maybe India should give it a try. I can't remember the last flight which crashed due to a fat, out of shape, cheesburger eating American pilot droping dead. And there are plenty of them.
Maybe the payoffs should end as well. I have seen plenty of Indian pilots who can't pass your own medicals, but "somehow" they make it through.
Maybe the payoffs should end as well. I have seen plenty of Indian pilots who can't pass your own medicals, but "somehow" they make it through.
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Once the Indian Medical becomes compulsory for expats then 50% of them
will quit rather than actually go through it..
After doing some short-term work in India, as a TRI/TRE, I must admit it is truly a land of contradictions.
I seriously doubt the number would be that high, but as long as India has unrealistic medical criteria; there will be some who will not want to subject themselves to the medical process.
I realise the subject of Expats being employed by Indian airlines strikes a certain nerve. And I shall try to be as objective as I can.
The entire aviation segment in India needs to face up to certain facts that are really holding them back. The ATC system is light years behind the rest of the world. Is it the worst? Perhaps not, but it's close. For a country it's size and for the amount of air traffic that operates in it's airspace...YES.
I have never heard controllers jam up the frequency the way the controllers in India do. There is no such thing as radio discipline. But the pilots are not immune either. Their radio discipline is just about as bad.
There is very little coordination between FIRs in India. You might as well be flying through different countries while going from one FIR to another in India.
The lack of ability to control high traffic areas, such as Delhi is amazing. Years ago, upon my first arrival to DEL, I heard "minimum clean" for the first time. What an absurd directive. There I was arriving in my 744 whose minimum clean was 30-40KIAS higher than the 320 I was following. End result, a 45-mile final. That is not how you control traffic.
The aerodrome facilities are abysmal. Just look at BOM. There are certain airlines that operate in and out of there who prohibit using the cross runway due to it's extremely poor condition. Other high traffic airports lack things such as CATII/III approaches, ie., BLR.
Finally, and this is will receive some negative responses, the entire system of breath testing prior to flights. Personally, I have no problem with that system. However, it needs to be enforced in a uniform manner for all pilots. I have personally witnessed local pilots who knew they would fail, direct the other crewmember to accomplish the test. The physician on duty just turns a blind eye and everyone is satisfied. That is not the way it should be done.
After spending a couple of short stints there, I must admit, there is not enough money in the world to attract me to work anywhere in the aviation sector in India
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Phil Squares
I concur with a certain points of yours..
1. Its not about the expats working here. I am well aware that with out expats
our airlines will find out almost impossible to operate. We have nothing against
expats. Its only these termites that come and complain and complain and keep
complaining about India. The point is simple. Expat means any person not being from india.. which means We have 150 countries out there to choose from. If you dont like this job then just leave, we are sure we can find some one who would like the place and the job. THATS EXACTLY EVERY INDIAN GUY IS STRESSING HERE.
We are always open to constructive criticism.
2. Again regarding ATC talking longggg is not an india centric issue. It exists all the way from Middle East to Far East (Not those UK or US Expat controllers working there) .. Its more of a racial thing. Yes things are changing. I know it.
I ve heard it. I ve seen it.
3. The new bangalore airport is a screw up (accepted) but that doesnt mean all the indian airports are like that. Hyderabad airport is ranked number 1 in the world in the 5-15 million category. By far its the best indian airport i ve flown into..
Unknown to you massive investment and planning is being made in Indian Aviation industry .. even before you fly in the next time.. expect things to look different..
And Finally I ve never skipped an alcohol breath analyser test. I ve not heard of any of my colleagues skip it either.
1. Its not about the expats working here. I am well aware that with out expats
our airlines will find out almost impossible to operate. We have nothing against
expats. Its only these termites that come and complain and complain and keep
complaining about India. The point is simple. Expat means any person not being from india.. which means We have 150 countries out there to choose from. If you dont like this job then just leave, we are sure we can find some one who would like the place and the job. THATS EXACTLY EVERY INDIAN GUY IS STRESSING HERE.
We are always open to constructive criticism.
2. Again regarding ATC talking longggg is not an india centric issue. It exists all the way from Middle East to Far East (Not those UK or US Expat controllers working there) .. Its more of a racial thing. Yes things are changing. I know it.
I ve heard it. I ve seen it.
3. The new bangalore airport is a screw up (accepted) but that doesnt mean all the indian airports are like that. Hyderabad airport is ranked number 1 in the world in the 5-15 million category. By far its the best indian airport i ve flown into..
Unknown to you massive investment and planning is being made in Indian Aviation industry .. even before you fly in the next time.. expect things to look different..
And Finally I ve never skipped an alcohol breath analyser test. I ve not heard of any of my colleagues skip it either.
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Don't know what all the complaining about indian medicals are about. I did mine down in Mumbai six months ago and no different than any other medical I have done any any other part of the world. No need for ANY expats to worry about it.
I also have not heard of any pilots that I work with to have had a problem with the indian medical. It is just a pain to take all day to fly down and get it done.
I also have not heard of any pilots that I work with to have had a problem with the indian medical. It is just a pain to take all day to fly down and get it done.
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read the newspaper today..the latest is they are gonna ban EXPATS from landing at some 'critical airports' from now on... shimla, patna, agartalla, jammu nd a few others...
how f*&^%d up is that? dunno wat they are thinking now
how f*&^%d up is that? dunno wat they are thinking now
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Again regarding ATC talking longggg is not an india centric issue
Not to beat a dead horse, but it is an India issue. I have been flying in that region of the world for the last 20 years and I have never seen RT discipline as poor as I have seen in India. The controllers seem to think the pilots work for them and any request is met with stiff resistance.
Unknown to you massive investment and planning is being made in Indian Aviation industry .. even before you fly in the next time.. expect things to look different..
Unknown to me? I don't live in a cave and I do get out once and a while. However, the investment going on in India is all for show. The simple fact is the ATC system in India is at or very close to the breaking point. There are plaudits for the new terminal at DEL. Great, will it increase the arrival/departure rate? No. DEL arrival and departures will still be a handled in the same antiquated manner. If you want to make an investment in aviation, send the controllers to LHR, HKG, LAX and see just how to handle peak arrivals and departures.
And Finally I ve never skipped an alcohol breath analyser test. I ve not heard of any of my colleagues skip it either.
Officially, the breath test wasn't skipped. It was just accomplished by someone other than the person who it was supposed to be administered to. I have seen that happen on several instances and I have other colleagues who have seen the same thing happen. Again, it's an antiquated approach to a problem that permeates every industry in the world. India needs to get in line with the rest of the world. Just like the initial physicals. What I hear everyone objecting to is the fact pilots from other countries can use the "validation" system (FATA) to work in India. That system exists in other countries and it's not an issue. As an ICAO member, India agrees to accept other countries medicals. If that is not what the pilots want, then allow expats to get a Indian license then they would have to subscribe to the Indian medical standards. Absent that, what people are demanding is the same as making every pilot who flies in and out of Indian airspace meet the Indian medical standards.
Its not about the expats working here. I am well aware that with out expats
our airlines will find out almost impossible to operate. We have nothing against
expats. Its only these termites that come and complain and complain and keep
complaining about India. The point is simple. Expat means any person not being from india.. which means We have 150 countries out there to choose from. If you dont like this job then just leave, we are sure we can find some one who would like the place and the job. THATS EXACTLY EVERY INDIAN GUY IS STRESSING HERE.
We are always open to constructive criticism
Sorry, but I sure don't get that from the posts I've read on this topic and the countless other posts about expats flying in India. First of all, pilots love to complain. Secondly, I think it's fair to say, the contracts that these pilots sign and come to work in India aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I know of countless pilots who have lost a lot of money because they haven't been paid, have been paid late or paid incorrectly. Terms agreed to by both parties are simply ignored or changed unilaterally. That's what gets under people's skin. Your solution is to just leave if you don't like it.
I can tell you since I was employed by an aircraft manufacturer, I really didn't worry about my contract, but I have seen expat pilots screwed left and right. And that's something that wouldn't happen to the local pilots.
At the end of all this, I am convinced Indian airlines will have a difficult time recruiting "quality" pilots. Most pilots I know, who have any self respect don't want to put up with the issues you have to as an expat pilot in India. You refer to 150 countries in which to choose from, be my guest. I think deep down you know the calibre of pilots you will attract. That will only serve to exacerbate the already growing problems in Indian commercial aviation
Not to beat a dead horse, but it is an India issue. I have been flying in that region of the world for the last 20 years and I have never seen RT discipline as poor as I have seen in India. The controllers seem to think the pilots work for them and any request is met with stiff resistance.
Unknown to you massive investment and planning is being made in Indian Aviation industry .. even before you fly in the next time.. expect things to look different..
Unknown to me? I don't live in a cave and I do get out once and a while. However, the investment going on in India is all for show. The simple fact is the ATC system in India is at or very close to the breaking point. There are plaudits for the new terminal at DEL. Great, will it increase the arrival/departure rate? No. DEL arrival and departures will still be a handled in the same antiquated manner. If you want to make an investment in aviation, send the controllers to LHR, HKG, LAX and see just how to handle peak arrivals and departures.
And Finally I ve never skipped an alcohol breath analyser test. I ve not heard of any of my colleagues skip it either.
Officially, the breath test wasn't skipped. It was just accomplished by someone other than the person who it was supposed to be administered to. I have seen that happen on several instances and I have other colleagues who have seen the same thing happen. Again, it's an antiquated approach to a problem that permeates every industry in the world. India needs to get in line with the rest of the world. Just like the initial physicals. What I hear everyone objecting to is the fact pilots from other countries can use the "validation" system (FATA) to work in India. That system exists in other countries and it's not an issue. As an ICAO member, India agrees to accept other countries medicals. If that is not what the pilots want, then allow expats to get a Indian license then they would have to subscribe to the Indian medical standards. Absent that, what people are demanding is the same as making every pilot who flies in and out of Indian airspace meet the Indian medical standards.
Its not about the expats working here. I am well aware that with out expats
our airlines will find out almost impossible to operate. We have nothing against
expats. Its only these termites that come and complain and complain and keep
complaining about India. The point is simple. Expat means any person not being from india.. which means We have 150 countries out there to choose from. If you dont like this job then just leave, we are sure we can find some one who would like the place and the job. THATS EXACTLY EVERY INDIAN GUY IS STRESSING HERE.
We are always open to constructive criticism
Sorry, but I sure don't get that from the posts I've read on this topic and the countless other posts about expats flying in India. First of all, pilots love to complain. Secondly, I think it's fair to say, the contracts that these pilots sign and come to work in India aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I know of countless pilots who have lost a lot of money because they haven't been paid, have been paid late or paid incorrectly. Terms agreed to by both parties are simply ignored or changed unilaterally. That's what gets under people's skin. Your solution is to just leave if you don't like it.
I can tell you since I was employed by an aircraft manufacturer, I really didn't worry about my contract, but I have seen expat pilots screwed left and right. And that's something that wouldn't happen to the local pilots.
At the end of all this, I am convinced Indian airlines will have a difficult time recruiting "quality" pilots. Most pilots I know, who have any self respect don't want to put up with the issues you have to as an expat pilot in India. You refer to 150 countries in which to choose from, be my guest. I think deep down you know the calibre of pilots you will attract. That will only serve to exacerbate the already growing problems in Indian commercial aviation
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A pilot s capability is devoid of his nationality 
You say u love to complain.. Sorry I dont.. And yes I fly in the same
skies you ve mentioned
Bonne Landings
You say u love to complain.. Sorry I dont.. And yes I fly in the same
skies you ve mentioned
Bonne Landings
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ok guys, time for a break 
Manju V. from Times of India 18june brings you Expat pilots to undergo med tests in India - India - The Times of India
hope this problem is brought to be noticed by the authorities in the DGCA. So that they can take corrective measures with the help of foreign reccommendations(US Civil Aviation, ofcourse)
Room for improvement
Manju V. from Times of India 18june brings you Expat pilots to undergo med tests in India - India - The Times of India
In a major amendment to rules, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has now done away with the disparity in medical standards for Indian and foreign pilots employed with airlines in the country. Expatriate pilots will now have to undergo medical tests in India and get certified in accordance to Indian medical standards.
I have never seen RT discipline as poor as I have seen in India. The controllers seem to think the pilots work for them and any request is met with stiff resistance
Room for improvement
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@Phil_squares
Just for information, all contracts that are signed in India are enforced with same level of 'fairness' as the Expat-Airline contracts. Its a sorry and pathetic state that most contracts in India are difficult and costly to enforce. As a result of that unconscionable contracts are abundant in Indian industry. I can assure you expats are not treated with a different yard stick in this manner. Is your unfair assumption that what happens with expat pilots doesn't happen with local. An expat complaining about contracts is just like an expat who complains about heat in Delhi or sweat in Bombay, plain immature. Of course it is possible that the local is more adapted to weather and legal environment, and may fare better than expat if a bad treatment is meted out.
Having said that, I agree to your point that ATC needs to improve a hell lot. And that is something which is not related to investment, neither is it related to Indian culture, its primarily related to quality of training. Part of the Indian airspace which is not controlled by military is controlled by Airport Authority of India, and all ATC officers are AAI employee, somehow they think that they AAI owns the skies. But be assured this monopoly of AAI on air navigation will not stand long, soon the private airports will realise that their profits are being heavily restrained by inefficient ATC, and they will consolidate to pressurise government to remove that monopoly. It will take time, most new private operators are not yet fully operational, once they are done with the initial phase of capacity addition, they will soon move towards efficient utilisation of capacity.
India has seen sovereignty only for 6 decades out of last 3 centuries.
I think it's fair to say, the contracts that these pilots sign and come to work in India aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I know of countless pilots who have lost a lot of money because they haven't been paid, have been paid late or paid incorrectly.
Just for information, all contracts that are signed in India are enforced with same level of 'fairness' as the Expat-Airline contracts. Its a sorry and pathetic state that most contracts in India are difficult and costly to enforce. As a result of that unconscionable contracts are abundant in Indian industry. I can assure you expats are not treated with a different yard stick in this manner. Is your unfair assumption that what happens with expat pilots doesn't happen with local. An expat complaining about contracts is just like an expat who complains about heat in Delhi or sweat in Bombay, plain immature. Of course it is possible that the local is more adapted to weather and legal environment, and may fare better than expat if a bad treatment is meted out.
Having said that, I agree to your point that ATC needs to improve a hell lot. And that is something which is not related to investment, neither is it related to Indian culture, its primarily related to quality of training. Part of the Indian airspace which is not controlled by military is controlled by Airport Authority of India, and all ATC officers are AAI employee, somehow they think that they AAI owns the skies. But be assured this monopoly of AAI on air navigation will not stand long, soon the private airports will realise that their profits are being heavily restrained by inefficient ATC, and they will consolidate to pressurise government to remove that monopoly. It will take time, most new private operators are not yet fully operational, once they are done with the initial phase of capacity addition, they will soon move towards efficient utilisation of capacity.
India has seen sovereignty only for 6 decades out of last 3 centuries.
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Just for information, all contracts that are signed in India are enforced with same level of 'fairness' as the Expat-Airline contracts. Its a sorry and pathetic state that most contracts in India are difficult and costly to enforce. As a result of that unconscionable contracts are abundant in Indian industry. I can assure you expats are not treated with a different yard stick in this manner. Is your unfair assumption that what happens with expat pilots doesn't happen with local. An expat complaining about contracts is just like an expat who complains about heat in Delhi or sweat in Bombay, plain immature. Of course it is possible that the local is more adapted to weather and legal environment, and may fare better than expat if a bad treatment is meted out.
First, expats are treated differently. That is a simple fact and something that expats have to get used to. However, telling me complaining about a contract is like complaining about the heat in Delhi is just an indication of your naiveté. The simple fact is the local pilots can take some action, just like they did at Jet. An expat can't do squat! If they do, they are asked to leave. Simple fact of life.
Secondly, the contracts that expats sign aren't worth anything. The local contracts are. The expats sign a contract with the agency, and they are actually employed by the agency. Most, if not all contracts, have wording to the effect that if the airline doesn't pay the agency, the agency doesn't pay the pilot. Now, imagine a pilot who is in the UK, what is it going to cost him to take the case to court in India? At some point, the expat has to cut his losses. Some decide to stay and hope for payment, while others cut their losses and just leave.
Finally, let's look at the income tax scam. I know of too many pilots who were supposed to have their income taxes paid by the airline employing them. Guess what? No one has a PAN card. Let's see that happen with a local pilot.
I could go on and on with examples of what I saw during my two short term stays in India. It would fill volumes and would not shine a very favourable light on things there. Prior to my short stays in India, I had been there on layovers. Things weren't a great surprise to me. But, I do think there are a great deal of expat who go to India without the knowledge of just how things are.
First, expats are treated differently. That is a simple fact and something that expats have to get used to. However, telling me complaining about a contract is like complaining about the heat in Delhi is just an indication of your naiveté. The simple fact is the local pilots can take some action, just like they did at Jet. An expat can't do squat! If they do, they are asked to leave. Simple fact of life.
Secondly, the contracts that expats sign aren't worth anything. The local contracts are. The expats sign a contract with the agency, and they are actually employed by the agency. Most, if not all contracts, have wording to the effect that if the airline doesn't pay the agency, the agency doesn't pay the pilot. Now, imagine a pilot who is in the UK, what is it going to cost him to take the case to court in India? At some point, the expat has to cut his losses. Some decide to stay and hope for payment, while others cut their losses and just leave.
Finally, let's look at the income tax scam. I know of too many pilots who were supposed to have their income taxes paid by the airline employing them. Guess what? No one has a PAN card. Let's see that happen with a local pilot.
I could go on and on with examples of what I saw during my two short term stays in India. It would fill volumes and would not shine a very favourable light on things there. Prior to my short stays in India, I had been there on layovers. Things weren't a great surprise to me. But, I do think there are a great deal of expat who go to India without the knowledge of just how things are.