Air India Express Crash
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I belive that a Ten Thousand hour pilot can make a mistake as easily as a low time pilot. I disagree that a 250 hour pilot can be trained to be just as safe.
Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot has not the experience to react immediately when something is wrong. If an experienced captain makes a mistake it could very easily go undetected to a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot.
If things are going downhill fast in a heavy workload I don't imagine a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot taking the controls and saving the day.
If a nearly four thousand hour first officer wasn't help in this accident than what would the two hundred fifty hour pilot have done?
I believe that with all the experience in the world, sometimes people are just human and makes mistakes. It is unfortunate that in our line of work people pay dearly for it.
Instead of using this forum as a way to push your political agenda maybe we should hope comfort and healing for all involved and may all passenger and crew lost rest in peace.
Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot has not the experience to react immediately when something is wrong. If an experienced captain makes a mistake it could very easily go undetected to a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot.
If things are going downhill fast in a heavy workload I don't imagine a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot taking the controls and saving the day.
If a nearly four thousand hour first officer wasn't help in this accident than what would the two hundred fifty hour pilot have done?
I believe that with all the experience in the world, sometimes people are just human and makes mistakes. It is unfortunate that in our line of work people pay dearly for it.
Instead of using this forum as a way to push your political agenda maybe we should hope comfort and healing for all involved and may all passenger and crew lost rest in peace.
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Jetscreams, to add credence to your point the other day a prominent news channel in its panel discussion mentioned that the immediate ex CMD of AI runs a London based recruitment agency supplying pilots to AI.
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can of worms
jetscreams i agree....crew and aircraft leasing are a can of worms waiting to be opened.
Perhaps thats what the Air India unions want to bring to everyones attention.
Why should there be a gag order if everything is in order.
Perhaps thats what the Air India unions want to bring to everyones attention.
Why should there be a gag order if everything is in order.
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I belive that a Ten Thousand hour pilot can make a mistake as easily as a low time pilot. I disagree that a 250 hour pilot can be trained to be just as safe.
In my humble opinion a 2500 hrs Captain and 300 hrs F/O crew can be just as safe as a highly experienced crew, if they utilize safe and defensive ADM consistently. The requirement from the crew is to be aware of the limitations of skill-sets they have and use this information in the ADM process.
If safety cannot be enhanced by training, do you think how experienced pilots learn is largely a hit and trial affair?
If things are going downhill fast in a heavy workload I don't imagine a Two Hundred Fifty hour pilot taking the controls and saving the day.
If a nearly four thousand hour first officer wasn't help in this accident than what would the two hundred fifty hour pilot have done?
If a nearly four thousand hour first officer wasn't help in this accident than what would the two hundred fifty hour pilot have done?
You are citing a hypothetical case here, as of fact we are not aware of what went in this crash, did the f/o help or not, was he in a position of helping or not.. Even if we were aware, generalisations will be of no productive use.
Just to counter your reasoning, I could cite 100s of cases when low experienced crew would have executed a missed and avoided all the TV and Media attention. Of course we would not be talking about them, aren't we just the carbon copy of the media which we always keep blaming of sensationalism.
If you go around with open eyes you will find so many examples, even statistical examples where low experienced crew has fared consistently well on safety standards. Of course, when this crew gains experience, we lose data points from our statistics.
I believe that with all the experience in the world, sometimes people are just human and makes mistakes. It is unfortunate that in our line of work people pay dearly for it.
But cutting short a DME arc approach, then ending up high on the ILS, resulting in a 360 on final causing a stall and crash is not 'human error' its criminal negligence when carrying several scores of passengers.
Flying is not a natural activity to human beings, a safe pilot is a product of training alone, good training can improve safety considerably and if complemented with refined cockpit procedures, immaculate discipline and active monitoring safety standards can be improved without resorting to the need of 'experience'.
Good training is costly. Commercial flying is a commercial activity, and airlines never want to spend too much money. In different regions of the world they adopt different tricks to avoid these costs.
In USA its the 'filter' of general aviation. Throw the pilot in general aviation and if he gets incident free first couple thousand hrs then hire him. Serves as a good filter. Only that safety is not proactively taught, its left on the pilot and his autodidact capabilities to learn being safe, and pilots are not too bad, in fact they are good and they learn to be safe.
In countries where general aviation is not present to pay this 'blood tax' of safety, for example Singapore, at least one airline has developed great cadet pilot programs which disproves the criticism of the 250 hrs pilots in airliner seats.
So yes, a 250 hrs pilots can be trained to a better than acceptable safety levels for airline operations, thats a fact.
And all those more experienced guys who believe that a young cadet can't be trained to such levels are living in a daily make believe world. After every flight they think they are safer because they have more hours and conveniently ignore the role played by their own active learning, which is much more than just the flight hours in the logbook.
In a country like India, where there is little GA, military flying of questionable safety standards, murky airline training, nepotism and corruption in crew selection, fraud maintenance practices, bureaucratic ATC and incapable regulator, aviation safety is left to prayers only.
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jimmy again you need education my friend...
"In USA its the 'filter' of general aviation. Throw the pilot in general aviation and if he gets incident free first couple thousand hrs then hire him. Serves as a good filter."
In a normal aviation developed country GA is NOT used as 'filter'. Its used to gain EXPERIENCE, normal progression like car driving, you don't learn to drive in a 18 wheeler semi trailer do you? No you start in a car and progress... get in the game my friend, don't sit on the sidelines and comment like this.... if you do want to comment, get some experience.
PS Europe has no GA 'filter' just like India and they have a great safety record... oh wait they have a competent aviation authority who has recognized this and setup the pilot training so people can sit right seat in a B777 with 250hrs.
"In USA its the 'filter' of general aviation. Throw the pilot in general aviation and if he gets incident free first couple thousand hrs then hire him. Serves as a good filter."
In a normal aviation developed country GA is NOT used as 'filter'. Its used to gain EXPERIENCE, normal progression like car driving, you don't learn to drive in a 18 wheeler semi trailer do you? No you start in a car and progress... get in the game my friend, don't sit on the sidelines and comment like this.... if you do want to comment, get some experience.
PS Europe has no GA 'filter' just like India and they have a great safety record... oh wait they have a competent aviation authority who has recognized this and setup the pilot training so people can sit right seat in a B777 with 250hrs.
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In a country like India, where there is little GA, military flying of questionable safety standards,
Jimmy,
You certainly need an education.If the airlines had the resources to conduct training for cadets like the IAF/IN does,there would be no discussion about 250 hour F/Os here. After all, the IAF takes a 20 year old,puts him through a rigorous training program and turns him loose in a million dollar aircraft (fighters/attack aircraft/transport/helicopters) and they succeed. Admittedly, their flying is highly supervised and mentored.But to claim that the military has questionable safety standards is laughable.
Maybe you do need to sit this one out.
Alt3.
Jimmy,
You certainly need an education.If the airlines had the resources to conduct training for cadets like the IAF/IN does,there would be no discussion about 250 hour F/Os here. After all, the IAF takes a 20 year old,puts him through a rigorous training program and turns him loose in a million dollar aircraft (fighters/attack aircraft/transport/helicopters) and they succeed. Admittedly, their flying is highly supervised and mentored.But to claim that the military has questionable safety standards is laughable.
Maybe you do need to sit this one out.
Alt3.
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@rspilot
When you used the words "be just as safe", I thought you had some real measure of 'safe'-ness with, banging your head on the wall three times doesn't help expressing that measure.
@itsbrokenagain
If I need education I am getting it everyday.
As for you car and 18 wheeler analogy, if I have resources I will learn on the 18 wheeler instead. It does help to know how to drive a car, but it is not necessary. And amongst my colleagues I know of at least three cases where they got the 737 P1/P2 positions before getting their car driving licenses.
What is norm, may not be universally true.
Performance in GA is used as a filter, a GA pilot with a runway incursion in his airman file will have little chances of getting interviewed. Of course GA serves as a learning experience too. In GA pilots reputation flies faster than the pilot.
Exactly my point. Good training can replace 'experience'. Or putting it another way, good training can result in skill acquisition at enhanced rate.
I do agree with you that Europe has a competent regulator except for the bull **** they have in the theory exams.
Lets say two pilots A and B, both have 1500 hrs each, how do you determine which one is safer? If you can answer this question, you know in your heart thats hours don't make much difference. But still there is something which is compelling you not to believe it.
@alouette3
Read this report for yourself, one of the very few accidents caused by IAF pilots investigated in civil domain.
http://dgca.nic.in/accident/reports/VT-XRM.pdf
After reading this report you will understand what I mean by questionable.
And there are reasons why I don't need to sit this 'laughable' belief out. If you have experience of INA/IF you will understand what laughable means when you look at their washout techniques of training.
My education continues.
We all know IAF/IN have unaccountable access to the taxpayers pockets. But the question "If the airlines had resources.." needs further analysis.
An Airbus 320 costs around 80m USD. By most generous accounting in the price of one plane a set of 500 crew can be provided with T/R and at least 4 years of recurrent training sessions.
But no, airlines don't have funds and they will love to hire Pay to Fly cadets.
A properly utilised B737-800, will close nearly 1 billion passenger miles in 5 year (the normal contract period for self type rated Pilots in India). A crew of 10 will be more than sufficient to keep it flying. 200,000 USD per cadet pilot program will only result in cost of 2 USD per 1000 miles to passenger. Do you think the passenger is unwilling to pay this additional money for a better and safe cadet pilot training program?
Do you still believe airlines don't have the resources?
Thank you gentlemen, you all are wonderful and do keep helping in my education.
Well than I stand corrected....lets load up the cockpits with 250 hour wonder pilots.
@itsbrokenagain
If I need education I am getting it everyday.
As for you car and 18 wheeler analogy, if I have resources I will learn on the 18 wheeler instead. It does help to know how to drive a car, but it is not necessary. And amongst my colleagues I know of at least three cases where they got the 737 P1/P2 positions before getting their car driving licenses.
What is norm, may not be universally true.
Performance in GA is used as a filter, a GA pilot with a runway incursion in his airman file will have little chances of getting interviewed. Of course GA serves as a learning experience too. In GA pilots reputation flies faster than the pilot.
PS Europe has no GA 'filter' just like India and they have a great safety record... oh wait they have a competent aviation authority who has recognized this and setup the pilot training so people can sit right seat in a B777 with 250hrs.
I do agree with you that Europe has a competent regulator except for the bull **** they have in the theory exams.
Lets say two pilots A and B, both have 1500 hrs each, how do you determine which one is safer? If you can answer this question, you know in your heart thats hours don't make much difference. But still there is something which is compelling you not to believe it.
@alouette3
Read this report for yourself, one of the very few accidents caused by IAF pilots investigated in civil domain.
http://dgca.nic.in/accident/reports/VT-XRM.pdf
After reading this report you will understand what I mean by questionable.
And there are reasons why I don't need to sit this 'laughable' belief out. If you have experience of INA/IF you will understand what laughable means when you look at their washout techniques of training.
If the airlines had the resources to conduct training for cadets like the IAF/IN does,there would be no discussion about 250 hour F/Os here.
My education continues.
We all know IAF/IN have unaccountable access to the taxpayers pockets. But the question "If the airlines had resources.." needs further analysis.
An Airbus 320 costs around 80m USD. By most generous accounting in the price of one plane a set of 500 crew can be provided with T/R and at least 4 years of recurrent training sessions.
But no, airlines don't have funds and they will love to hire Pay to Fly cadets.
A properly utilised B737-800, will close nearly 1 billion passenger miles in 5 year (the normal contract period for self type rated Pilots in India). A crew of 10 will be more than sufficient to keep it flying. 200,000 USD per cadet pilot program will only result in cost of 2 USD per 1000 miles to passenger. Do you think the passenger is unwilling to pay this additional money for a better and safe cadet pilot training program?
Do you still believe airlines don't have the resources?
Thank you gentlemen, you all are wonderful and do keep helping in my education.
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You are citing a hypothetical case here, as of fact we are not aware of what went in this crash, did the f/o help or not, was he in a position of helping or not..
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Copied from Rumors & News Forum
At the risk of upsetting some egos here, it is not about how great you are or were. Also, it is not about nationality (although this will shatter the backbone of the many, many xenophobic attitudes in Indian Aviation).
From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:
1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed [u]at all[u] let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).
So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.
These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).
Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture.
End quote.
Now, watch the knives of denial come out.... Apache: I assume you are referring to me? Find ONE, just ONE post where I have ever wished for a "smoking hole". I have attempted to exposed the truth and FACTS as I witnessed and have evidence of. I wish for pathetics like you to be given the training you are entitled to. Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth. You have just reached lower than low to attempt to gain benign points from such a disaster. Expat, local, dog, cat or panda bear; the SYSTEM is the culprit to deny ALL the minimum standards they seek and are entitled to.
I know journalists and regulators read this, hence why I often post.
May I throw the same (well put Allouette3) argument back? Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local? I am personally devastated that some fellow airman, crew and passnegers lost their lives. I relish in NOTHING but despise the attitudes like those exposed here, more often than not from pre-pubescent children and xenophobic agendas commenting on racial grounds other than FACT.
They were our colleagues and had the name "pilot" associated with their name. That should be all.
Show some respect. Some fellow airmen just died. So, as I said before: Rest In Peace, but let's not ever forget.
From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:
1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed [u]at all[u] let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).
So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.
These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).
Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture.
End quote.
Now, watch the knives of denial come out.... Apache: I assume you are referring to me? Find ONE, just ONE post where I have ever wished for a "smoking hole". I have attempted to exposed the truth and FACTS as I witnessed and have evidence of. I wish for pathetics like you to be given the training you are entitled to. Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth. You have just reached lower than low to attempt to gain benign points from such a disaster. Expat, local, dog, cat or panda bear; the SYSTEM is the culprit to deny ALL the minimum standards they seek and are entitled to.
I know journalists and regulators read this, hence why I often post.
May I throw the same (well put Allouette3) argument back? Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local? I am personally devastated that some fellow airman, crew and passnegers lost their lives. I relish in NOTHING but despise the attitudes like those exposed here, more often than not from pre-pubescent children and xenophobic agendas commenting on racial grounds other than FACT.
They were our colleagues and had the name "pilot" associated with their name. That should be all.
Show some respect. Some fellow airmen just died. So, as I said before: Rest In Peace, but let's not ever forget.
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Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth
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Thank you for the insight. I am sure it has been viewed by the media...
now what remains is to see if the truth will come out!
My
is bigger than your ............ will never help anyone
What led to Air India strike?
See what led these guys to strike............if this is the case then it is really shocking.
Thank you for the insight. I am sure it has been viewed by the media...
now what remains is to see if the truth will come out!My
is bigger than your ............ will never help anyoneWhat led to Air India strike?
See what led these guys to strike............if this is the case then it is really shocking.
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Wannabe: Thanks for the link. Good to see some backbone being shown at AI. I will admit to some relief and sincere professional happiness that someone (or group) at last has said "ENOUGH!" And yes, it really is that shocking. You will NEVER see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft.
Apache: I could post the same thing another 1000 times but blindfolded ignorance like yours will never be reasoned with. Revel in your lust of self deluded standards. As I have said to you in the past: stay lucky because safety is not a wanted part of your skill set.
Apache: I could post the same thing another 1000 times but blindfolded ignorance like yours will never be reasoned with. Revel in your lust of self deluded standards. As I have said to you in the past: stay lucky because safety is not a wanted part of your skill set.
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I could post the same thing another 1000 times
Im also quite surprised at your sudden 'professional happiness'...About 2 posts ago you were quite convinced (and were convincing others) that nothing will change ...It is such pessimism that is a Shame, not my skills of which you know nothing.
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Good to see some backbone being shown at AI
Back bone by who? In my opinion both the management and the staff are to blame. I dont think the engineers in my opinion are correct and it seems to be an ego issue.
From what you have posted earlier regarding fudging of papers and falsification of documents I think you are bang on in describing a culture of lies and deceit which is prevalent in India across sectors, because Perjury is not a punishable of fence (though a recent case the judge did a brilliant ting by screwing a Liar! Hope it goes somewhere).
My opinion they all need to be taught a good lesson by the consumers. If 20,000 go unemployed for a while the reality will show up and if the Airline gets auctioned off to the private sector the country will benefit in the long run.
will NEVER see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft.
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Wannabe: Am only going on the link you sent so really haven't the knowledge to comment further.... But if this draws attention to real goings on then all the better. Enjoy your beer! 
Apache: see the time and date of the post vs the time and date of the link being read. Idiot. And you claim to have the intelligence to pilot an aircraft? You scare me to even navigate a calculator.
That post of mine was cut and pasted from the Rumors and News Forum some days ago. Check it out. Believe it or not there are other countries and personnel involved with aviation outside of your sand box. If you want to comment from an informed (175 hrs ?? 
) perspective regarding the AIE crash then do so. Otherwise my arguing with you is, well, boring.
Apache: see the time and date of the post vs the time and date of the link being read. Idiot. And you claim to have the intelligence to pilot an aircraft? You scare me to even navigate a calculator.
That post of mine was cut and pasted from the Rumors and News Forum some days ago. Check it out. Believe it or not there are other countries and personnel involved with aviation outside of your sand box. If you want to comment from an informed (175 hrs ?? ) perspective regarding the AIE crash then do so. Otherwise my arguing with you is, well, boring.
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will NEVER see me or my own on a VT registered aircraft
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http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...-you-free.html
Top Tup
Some reading for you to decipher. Since you have prior working experience with AI am sure you will be able to add your 2 pennies
Yes will enjoy that beer on my Next KF (which i am getting to sample their First product in Long Haul Yipee, heard they have a bar on board). Will review that and hope the PIC does not spill my beer
Top Tup
Some reading for you to decipher. Since you have prior working experience with AI am sure you will be able to add your 2 pennies
Yes will enjoy that beer on my Next KF (which i am getting to sample their First product in Long Haul Yipee, heard they have a bar on board). Will review that and hope the PIC does not spill my beer
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NOTHING WILL CHANGE. And that is the saddest part of this entire accident.
No one will willfully open the can of worms and expose what goes on there. AI will have to be opened and investigated thoroughly. It won't happen.
No one will willfully open the can of worms and expose what goes on there. AI will have to be opened and investigated thoroughly. It won't happen.
So what has changed? Nothing. What will change? Nothing. I'll bet that my reports and paperwork were or either are burnt, lost or at the bottom of one of the many rooms packed 6+ ft high, wrapped in pink ribbon
Has it occurred to you.May be you didnt try hard enough...Or were you not smart enough to change things....Now you are sitting somewhere hoping that the media will read your posts and calling me an idiot when you know nothing about me.