Air India Express Crash
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Well said!
TopTup wrote:
"
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At the risk of upsetting some egos here, it is not about how great you are or were. Also, it is not about nationality (although this will shatter the backbone of the many, many xenophobic attitudes in Indian Aviation).
From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:
1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed [u]at all[u] let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).
So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.
These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).
Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture.
End quote.
Now, watch the knives of denial come out.... Apache: I assume you are referring to me? Find ONE, just ONE post where I have ever wished for a "smoking hole". I have attempted to exposed the truth and FACTS as I witnessed and have evidence of. I wish for pathetics like you to be given the training you are entitled to. Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth. You have just reached lower than low to attempt to gain benign points from such a disaster. Expat, local, dog, cat or panda bear; the SYSTEM is the culprit to deny ALL the minimum standards they seek and are entitled to.
I know journalists and regulators read this, hence why I often post.
May I throw the same (well put Allouette3) argument back? Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local? I am personally devastated that some fellow airman, crew and passnegers lost their lives. I relish in NOTHING but despise the attitudes like those exposed here, more often than not from pre-pubescent children and xenophobic agendas commenting on racial grounds other than FACT.
They were our colleagues and had the name "pilot" associated with their name. That should be all.
Show some respect. Some fellow airmen just died. So, as I said before: Rest In Peace, but let's not ever forget. "
Unfortunately, more smoking holes will came before any effective action be taken. This is just the beginning.
"
Copied from Rumors & News Forum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of upsetting some egos here, it is not about how great you are or were. Also, it is not about nationality (although this will shatter the backbone of the many, many xenophobic attitudes in Indian Aviation).
From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:
1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed [u]at all[u] let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).
So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.
These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).
Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture.
End quote.
Now, watch the knives of denial come out.... Apache: I assume you are referring to me? Find ONE, just ONE post where I have ever wished for a "smoking hole". I have attempted to exposed the truth and FACTS as I witnessed and have evidence of. I wish for pathetics like you to be given the training you are entitled to. Show just a hint of integrity instead of your usual Goebels like posts of India invented the Earth. You have just reached lower than low to attempt to gain benign points from such a disaster. Expat, local, dog, cat or panda bear; the SYSTEM is the culprit to deny ALL the minimum standards they seek and are entitled to.
I know journalists and regulators read this, hence why I often post.
May I throw the same (well put Allouette3) argument back? Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local? I am personally devastated that some fellow airman, crew and passnegers lost their lives. I relish in NOTHING but despise the attitudes like those exposed here, more often than not from pre-pubescent children and xenophobic agendas commenting on racial grounds other than FACT.
They were our colleagues and had the name "pilot" associated with their name. That should be all.
Show some respect. Some fellow airmen just died. So, as I said before: Rest In Peace, but let's not ever forget. "
Unfortunately, more smoking holes will came before any effective action be taken. This is just the beginning.
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One can't dispute anything Top Tup has said about AI (And that is why I haven't disputed anything on that front).Having said that I don't share the same collective pessimism on anything and everything INDIAN (like I won't ever fly VT registered aircraft crap) Not to mention the Nostradamus like predictions of Indian planes falling out of the sky......Coming Soon....Crap...Inductive Reasoning...Very well said.
.
I thought that the crew has a collective responsibility on Safety issues.So if and only if (And I hope that is not the case) it is infact a human error the crew would be held responsible (Not just an expat).Right ?
.
Are you (all) happy that it was an expat Capt as opposed to a local?
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ff, we are all sad that our fellow aviators whether foreign and local had met a sad end. Heartfelt condolences to their families. I agree that the system fail them in some ways. It is corrupt and contribute to many ills in the aviation scene in India.
However it is undeniable that many expat pilots come to Asia with the attitude that we owe them a job and every Asian pilot is below them in skill in every way. Whenever an Asian pilot made a mistake, the gloating by foreign pilots was unbearable with aspersions and insinuations cast far and wide. When a Caucasian pilot make mistakes, the loud chorus of denial and excuses is thundering. You just got to scour this forum for evidence of this, with a real sense of natural justice and non prejudice.
However it is undeniable that many expat pilots come to Asia with the attitude that we owe them a job and every Asian pilot is below them in skill in every way. Whenever an Asian pilot made a mistake, the gloating by foreign pilots was unbearable with aspersions and insinuations cast far and wide. When a Caucasian pilot make mistakes, the loud chorus of denial and excuses is thundering. You just got to scour this forum for evidence of this, with a real sense of natural justice and non prejudice.
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Inductive Reasoning
Apache, did you blindly regurgitate something written by someone else or do you really have ANY idea what inductive reasoning is?
"Traveling to Afghanistan is dangerous." - This is inductive reasoning. It is a statement that cannot be predicated completely by fact but is based on overall and logical series of facts. "The premises of an inductive logical argument indicate some degree of support (inductive probability) for the conclusion but do not entail it."
I am quite sure that some areas or regions are or can be OK, but by and large risk is involved. Inductive reasoning dictates that ALL areas of Afghanistan are dangerous. Where is this conclusion drawn? From [broad and other] factual reporting, eye witness accounts and hence an informed public opinion. But, it CANNOT by definition and just common damn logic cover ALL cases, ALL aspects and ALL areas of Afghanistan. Strong (!!) probability is therefore the decider. This is what gives the statement it's credibility.
So, is AI safe? In my opinion, (my inductive reasoning) from my direct observation, NO. Are there some good / very good pilots at AI? My experience is, yes there are. By and large, is the overall situation of Indian Aviation (VT reg) safe? Are you more likely to have a poorly trained crew where standards have not been maintained (refer previous posts)? YES! So, my use of inductive reasoning to minimise risk to me or my own I believe is justified. Likelihood favors the negative aspects of safety.
So, my inductive reasoning is well warranted and I earnt the right to do so.
Just go to the more global Rumors and News forum to see what a wider (global!) audience has witnessed and understands about the present situation of Indian aviation, from ATC to structure to crewing. This may ask you to widen your horizons. Be careful!
Didn't try hard enough? Well apart from being insulting in the extreme it demonstrates your short temper and frustrations to strike out without the need for fact. Belligerent attitudes like yours, inherent corruption, blind mismanagement and raw incompetence was far too strong to fight against. Look at your hard-nosed stubborn attitude! Now, multiply that by years of systemic corruption, low standards and arrogance by an entire airline department of grown men in charge and you may get a small indication of the system you are so proud to defend. So, I left. You see nothing wrong and hence nothing needs to be fixed. Every system to do with safety needs constant scrutiny: it's called dynamic thinking to always work towards WBP (World's Best Practice) ideologies. It takes humility. Learn it.
"Traveling to Afghanistan is dangerous." - This is inductive reasoning. It is a statement that cannot be predicated completely by fact but is based on overall and logical series of facts. "The premises of an inductive logical argument indicate some degree of support (inductive probability) for the conclusion but do not entail it."
I am quite sure that some areas or regions are or can be OK, but by and large risk is involved. Inductive reasoning dictates that ALL areas of Afghanistan are dangerous. Where is this conclusion drawn? From [broad and other] factual reporting, eye witness accounts and hence an informed public opinion. But, it CANNOT by definition and just common damn logic cover ALL cases, ALL aspects and ALL areas of Afghanistan. Strong (!!) probability is therefore the decider. This is what gives the statement it's credibility.
So, is AI safe? In my opinion, (my inductive reasoning) from my direct observation, NO. Are there some good / very good pilots at AI? My experience is, yes there are. By and large, is the overall situation of Indian Aviation (VT reg) safe? Are you more likely to have a poorly trained crew where standards have not been maintained (refer previous posts)? YES! So, my use of inductive reasoning to minimise risk to me or my own I believe is justified. Likelihood favors the negative aspects of safety.
So, my inductive reasoning is well warranted and I earnt the right to do so.
Just go to the more global Rumors and News forum to see what a wider (global!) audience has witnessed and understands about the present situation of Indian aviation, from ATC to structure to crewing. This may ask you to widen your horizons. Be careful!
Didn't try hard enough? Well apart from being insulting in the extreme it demonstrates your short temper and frustrations to strike out without the need for fact. Belligerent attitudes like yours, inherent corruption, blind mismanagement and raw incompetence was far too strong to fight against. Look at your hard-nosed stubborn attitude! Now, multiply that by years of systemic corruption, low standards and arrogance by an entire airline department of grown men in charge and you may get a small indication of the system you are so proud to defend. So, I left. You see nothing wrong and hence nothing needs to be fixed. Every system to do with safety needs constant scrutiny: it's called dynamic thinking to always work towards WBP (World's Best Practice) ideologies. It takes humility. Learn it.
Last edited by TopTup; 27th May 2010 at 01:53.
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Dear Top Tup
When an archer misses his target he looks within and seeks to find the cause of failure in himself.Kindly look within.May be you didn't try hard enough or May be you were not smart enough.
If you think that going to Afghanistan is the same as flying on VT a/c then you are beyond all logic as a majority of Indian pilots are very well trained.There are some idiots but you will always find them in any sample of population.
I think you were pretty dumb in the first place to go to AI without doing any due diligence.What did your agent tell you,"This is the best airline in the world" You are nothing but a disgruntled employee.Instead of saying that some specific people were unprofessional, you are saying this whole country is full of **** pilots.You changed nothing while you were here and will not change anything in the future.But atleast don't go around trying to convince others that they can't change things.
When an archer misses his target he looks within and seeks to find the cause of failure in himself.Kindly look within.May be you didn't try hard enough or May be you were not smart enough.
If you think that going to Afghanistan is the same as flying on VT a/c then you are beyond all logic as a majority of Indian pilots are very well trained.There are some idiots but you will always find them in any sample of population.
I think you were pretty dumb in the first place to go to AI without doing any due diligence.What did your agent tell you,"This is the best airline in the world" You are nothing but a disgruntled employee.Instead of saying that some specific people were unprofessional, you are saying this whole country is full of **** pilots.You changed nothing while you were here and will not change anything in the future.But atleast don't go around trying to convince others that they can't change things.
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That is one of the most poorly written, poorly thought out and illogical retorts you have ever attempted! Not based on one minuscule fact and completely without reason. All circuses have clowns to fill the gaps of serious acts with comedy. You are, at best, entertaining in your stupidity and banter 
Where did I compare Afghanistan to AI or India?
Where have I EVER stated that ALL pilots are AI are "****" (your word)? In fact you'll see I wrote quite the opposite. Oops! I said that four letter word again: FACT.
You didn't even bother to properly comprehend what was written before asking your mommy and daddy's permission to use the computer and reply, did you?
I encourage change at AI! I want it to happen! I only highlight the disgrace it is. You are part of that disgrace by defending the un-defendable FACTS.
How about you start sending me PM's (like the one you did not too long ago apologising for your immaturity, as well as thanking me for trying to make a difference when I was at AI) instead of diverging from the thread if you want to argue with me? I only continued to argue you to demonstrate the substance of idiocy blocking decency and proper standards. You've done enough of that for us.
Also, after a sentence and a period is used correct grammar requires a space before beginning the next sentance. Such issues may prevent you from writing a legible CV. See! I'm full of help for you today!
Thanks for the laugh. Now go and put your red nose back on and make me laugh again, and again, and again..... Fool!
Where did I compare Afghanistan to AI or India?
Where have I EVER stated that ALL pilots are AI are "****" (your word)? In fact you'll see I wrote quite the opposite. Oops! I said that four letter word again: FACT.
You didn't even bother to properly comprehend what was written before asking your mommy and daddy's permission to use the computer and reply, did you?
I encourage change at AI! I want it to happen! I only highlight the disgrace it is. You are part of that disgrace by defending the un-defendable FACTS.
How about you start sending me PM's (like the one you did not too long ago apologising for your immaturity, as well as thanking me for trying to make a difference when I was at AI) instead of diverging from the thread if you want to argue with me? I only continued to argue you to demonstrate the substance of idiocy blocking decency and proper standards. You've done enough of that for us.
Also, after a sentence and a period is used correct grammar requires a space before beginning the next sentance. Such issues may prevent you from writing a legible CV. See! I'm full of help for you today!
Thanks for the laugh. Now go and put your red nose back on and make me laugh again, and again, and again..... Fool!
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Forget my grammar.I may have flawed logic too.But have you looked within yet Sir 
? Were you dumb to join AI or was that my fault too ? Has the media heard you yet.Try writing a letter to an editor instead of whining on this forum forever.I sent you a PM (6 months ago !) coz I felt bad for what I thought was a wronged old man.But now I think you totally deserved what you got.Get well soon.
O yeah And things will change.Smart people will change things, not quitters
? Were you dumb to join AI or was that my fault too ? Has the media heard you yet.Try writing a letter to an editor instead of whining on this forum forever.I sent you a PM (6 months ago !) coz I felt bad for what I thought was a wronged old man.But now I think you totally deserved what you got.Get well soon.O yeah And things will change.Smart people will change things, not quitters
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TopTup
You're spending expensive ammunition on cheap chase!...
Some day, somehow, types like Apache will stop pissing out of diapers and throwing toys out of the crib!...
Some day, somehow, types like Apache will stop pissing out of diapers and throwing toys out of the crib!...
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@full forward
Yeah like 'I won't fly me or my own on VT a/c'.....Oh but wait some pilots are good....Nothing will change...it wont change....oh but wait I want change to happen...I want to encourage change
That sums up Top Tups expensive ammunition....Even Politicians don't make such quick turnarounds.
You're spending expensive ammunition on cheap chase!...
That sums up Top Tups expensive ammunition....Even Politicians don't make such quick turnarounds.
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Cruisinfobrewsin....too true and had to laugh!
Fullforward. Yep, you too are right! Too much down time at the moment.
Apache: Thanks. I knew you wouldn't let me down with your clown act. Again, not one thing you wrote makes sense nor indicates any backflip on my part. You have zero experience, zero aviation knowledge and hence zero credibility. You really are a uneducated (and evidently now bordering on illiterate) child. You'll be chewing at the bit to respond, with what? No one cares! Illogical dribble coming from your breastfed existence does not count. See ya! Won't bite again. (Shouldn't have in the first place). Give up? Quit? Go jump in a fire and see how soon you quit trying that. That makes you a quitter if using the same analogy that I experienced. Experience? Another word alien to you. I am a proud quitter of a corrupt system and potentially criminally negligent airline. Odd that you are desperate to get involved....?
Apache has attempted to ruin another potentially good thread. I won't respond to your childish, immature mutterings on this thread again. Do not disrespect others as (we) have done too much here. If you wish to argue me then do it via a PM.
So, back to the thread of the AIE accident for us all....
Will the culture at AI change from this? Will it or can it be fully exposed? Time will tell. Is anyone fully aware aware of which authorities are involved in the investigation?? (Please don't mention the DGCA. While obvious, it has zero credibility anywhere.)
Fullforward. Yep, you too are right! Too much down time at the moment.
Apache: Thanks. I knew you wouldn't let me down with your clown act. Again, not one thing you wrote makes sense nor indicates any backflip on my part. You have zero experience, zero aviation knowledge and hence zero credibility. You really are a uneducated (and evidently now bordering on illiterate) child. You'll be chewing at the bit to respond, with what? No one cares! Illogical dribble coming from your breastfed existence does not count. See ya! Won't bite again. (Shouldn't have in the first place). Give up? Quit? Go jump in a fire and see how soon you quit trying that. That makes you a quitter if using the same analogy that I experienced. Experience? Another word alien to you. I am a proud quitter of a corrupt system and potentially criminally negligent airline. Odd that you are desperate to get involved....?
Apache has attempted to ruin another potentially good thread. I won't respond to your childish, immature mutterings on this thread again. Do not disrespect others as (we) have done too much here. If you wish to argue me then do it via a PM.
So, back to the thread of the AIE accident for us all....
Will the culture at AI change from this? Will it or can it be fully exposed? Time will tell. Is anyone fully aware aware of which authorities are involved in the investigation?? (Please don't mention the DGCA. While obvious, it has zero credibility anywhere.)
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Originally Posted by Top Tup
Will the culture at AI change from this? Will it or can it be fully exposed? Time will tell. Is anyone fully aware aware of which authorities are involved in the investigation?? (Please don't mention the DGCA. While obvious, it has zero credibility anywhere.)
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@Top Tup
O So Joining AI was like jumping in the fire was it ? It wasn't dumb ? Only a fool will jump into the fire in the first place. Go hide behind your political gimmicks and personal attacks on me all the time claiming to mention facts when they are infact over exaggerated half truths.
Why didn't you send me a PM if you cared so much about not ruining the thread ? Pretentious as usual
O So Joining AI was like jumping in the fire was it ? It wasn't dumb ? Only a fool will jump into the fire in the first place. Go hide behind your political gimmicks and personal attacks on me all the time claiming to mention facts when they are infact over exaggerated half truths.
Why didn't you send me a PM if you cared so much about not ruining the thread ? Pretentious as usual
Last edited by Capt Apache; 28th May 2010 at 04:32.
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Yes Indian DGCA are in charge of the report. That is pretty standard. Boeing will be asked to assist < because it was a Boeing and what ever engine manufacturer will be asked to assist. The DGCA can ask for outside help as they did , the US NTSB is there to assist( they have the experience and technology )
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fatbus, as mush as I thought as well.
But, will it be similar to the EgyptAir 767 crash (31 Oct '99) where the US NTSB did investigate and came up with differing conclusions to the flag carrier's investigative branch? Same with Boeing's assistance.
Naturally the DGCA will lead the investigation but how transparent will be the question. Also, how deep into the contributing factors will they go is another question: airline culture, training standards, etc....
But, will it be similar to the EgyptAir 767 crash (31 Oct '99) where the US NTSB did investigate and came up with differing conclusions to the flag carrier's investigative branch? Same with Boeing's assistance.
Naturally the DGCA will lead the investigation but how transparent will be the question. Also, how deep into the contributing factors will they go is another question: airline culture, training standards, etc....
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Top Tup,
Don't know if it is still the practice,but most air crash enquiries, in India, are lead by a judge.Now, understandably,he may not have any aviation experience,but sometimes a neutral observer is the best way to go. That way, the DGCA does not meddle with the findings to their advantage.
Yes,I know, judges are not above corruption or political pressure, but it has worked so far and ,hopefully, it will work again.
Alt3
Don't know if it is still the practice,but most air crash enquiries, in India, are lead by a judge.Now, understandably,he may not have any aviation experience,but sometimes a neutral observer is the best way to go. That way, the DGCA does not meddle with the findings to their advantage.
Yes,I know, judges are not above corruption or political pressure, but it has worked so far and ,hopefully, it will work again.
Alt3
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Apache, I do not agree with some of the stuff you wrote but you have done a great service by ruffling some feathers and exposing this fella to ridicule........their replies to you reveal a great deal!
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well said oswaldo. too many budding tin-kickers coming up with theories. best to wait till the pros are done.
many moons back(80's), a JAL 747 SR crashed in Japan killing 500 +. a BBC report brought in a brit aviation "expert," who commented on the quality of training and pilots in Japan, amongst other things.
the probe revealed a rear bulkhead blowout which severed the entire hydraulics of the a/c due to faulty riveting.
the pilots managed to keep an uncontrollable a/c in flt, with the throttles for 40 mins before it hit a hill. (4 survivors)
many moons back(80's), a JAL 747 SR crashed in Japan killing 500 +. a BBC report brought in a brit aviation "expert," who commented on the quality of training and pilots in Japan, amongst other things.
the probe revealed a rear bulkhead blowout which severed the entire hydraulics of the a/c due to faulty riveting.
the pilots managed to keep an uncontrollable a/c in flt, with the throttles for 40 mins before it hit a hill. (4 survivors)