Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Propdog....in all due respect I do not think your description of alien labour is accurate.
Countries screen potential immigrants based on the labour needs of that country and at that time, and it is reviewed regularly. For example, sometimes it is nurses needed more than engineers or carpenters more than lawyers (already too many of them anyway!)
In India, they have a shortage of skilled and experienced pilots needed to fly the category of aricraft in discussion. The (3-4000) CPL holders in question do not have the skills needed. The sorry state for them is the system that should prepare them and teach them the skills required is corrupt and incredibly woeful. There is shortage of skilled labour in the field of pilotting tansport aircraft. Hence, that skill needs to be imported. Those without a job should be scrutinising and holding those corrupt officials and managers accountable! Then going after the the airlines and the disgraceful training standards.
Eg: you only have to scratch the surface of what that VERMIN (read into that as you will) in charge of expat contracts does, and where his bank account(s) are. Can of worms there kids.
We all want only the best of success for those unemployed, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF SAFETY.
Countries screen potential immigrants based on the labour needs of that country and at that time, and it is reviewed regularly. For example, sometimes it is nurses needed more than engineers or carpenters more than lawyers (already too many of them anyway!)
In India, they have a shortage of skilled and experienced pilots needed to fly the category of aricraft in discussion. The (3-4000) CPL holders in question do not have the skills needed. The sorry state for them is the system that should prepare them and teach them the skills required is corrupt and incredibly woeful. There is shortage of skilled labour in the field of pilotting tansport aircraft. Hence, that skill needs to be imported. Those without a job should be scrutinising and holding those corrupt officials and managers accountable! Then going after the the airlines and the disgraceful training standards.
Eg: you only have to scratch the surface of what that VERMIN (read into that as you will) in charge of expat contracts does, and where his bank account(s) are. Can of worms there kids.
We all want only the best of success for those unemployed, BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF SAFETY.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 45 yards from a tropical beach
Posts: 1,103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Selection
I really feel for the many CPL holders in India who cannot get their foot onto the first rung of the ladder. Top Tup (whose soubriquet is a marvellous pun and double entendre!) is so right to point out the corruption in the 'system.'
However, that is only part of the problem. The so-called 'self improver' is also a 'self-selector.' The flying training establishments will be more than happy to train anybody, regardless of their skills or proficiency, as long as the student can pay! You then face selection for that all-important first job as a professional pilot. Sadly, at least 20% of the 'self-selectors' will fail to impress their potential employer with the requisite skills or personal qualities. Their sole achievement will be to have lined the pockets of the flying school owners; their dreams are then put on hold.
Tragic.
However, that is only part of the problem. The so-called 'self improver' is also a 'self-selector.' The flying training establishments will be more than happy to train anybody, regardless of their skills or proficiency, as long as the student can pay! You then face selection for that all-important first job as a professional pilot. Sadly, at least 20% of the 'self-selectors' will fail to impress their potential employer with the requisite skills or personal qualities. Their sole achievement will be to have lined the pockets of the flying school owners; their dreams are then put on hold.
Tragic.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TopTup,
I never said all foreign labor coming to the US are engineers. Read it again....if there is a need for a specific category, INS will approve the issual of work visas on the behalf of hiring companies. I even specifically mentioned nurses. The only way to get a work permit in a field with no shortage is to have very high qualifications....I mentioned IIT grads coming into the US as an example of that category. They do it to import 'academic/research intelligence' into the country.
I never said all foreign labor coming to the US are engineers. Read it again....if there is a need for a specific category, INS will approve the issual of work visas on the behalf of hiring companies. I even specifically mentioned nurses. The only way to get a work permit in a field with no shortage is to have very high qualifications....I mentioned IIT grads coming into the US as an example of that category. They do it to import 'academic/research intelligence' into the country.
Last edited by propdog; 22nd Nov 2009 at 19:21.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Well thats a big volcano...
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Propdog, you seemed to overlook one thing which you actually touch on in the developed world, such as the USA you say "INS will approve the issual of work visas"
In the real world the government departments do their job, ie you don't see the FAA banning all foreign pilots and writing it in the FAR's do you? You have a government department that can analyze the needs of the workforce and operate as it should... its a pity its not like this in India, the government agencies in India such as the DGCA seem to cross the line and become or appear as very socialistic.
In the real world the government departments do their job, ie you don't see the FAA banning all foreign pilots and writing it in the FAR's do you? You have a government department that can analyze the needs of the workforce and operate as it should... its a pity its not like this in India, the government agencies in India such as the DGCA seem to cross the line and become or appear as very socialistic.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
itsbrokenagain,
Not completely accurate. Post 9/11,based on laws passed and the creation of the TSA, the FAA did rewrite the FARs to institute tighter controls on pilot training of foreign students in the US. Part 141 schools and CFIs had to undergo training to get approval for a foreign student to commence training. In a democracy, every govt. agency can and will be subject to the laws that are changed by the political leadership. India is no different.
Now, admittedly ,the DGCA can be very knee jerk in it's reaction and seems to sway every which way depending on the puppet masters (politicians and the airline CEOs and their lobbyists) but to say that the DGCA "rewrote " the CARs to get rid of the expats is not completely accurate.God knows, I am not a fan of the DGCA, but in this one instance, I think the blame lies elsewhere.
Alt3.
Not completely accurate. Post 9/11,based on laws passed and the creation of the TSA, the FAA did rewrite the FARs to institute tighter controls on pilot training of foreign students in the US. Part 141 schools and CFIs had to undergo training to get approval for a foreign student to commence training. In a democracy, every govt. agency can and will be subject to the laws that are changed by the political leadership. India is no different.
Now, admittedly ,the DGCA can be very knee jerk in it's reaction and seems to sway every which way depending on the puppet masters (politicians and the airline CEOs and their lobbyists) but to say that the DGCA "rewrote " the CARs to get rid of the expats is not completely accurate.God knows, I am not a fan of the DGCA, but in this one instance, I think the blame lies elsewhere.
Alt3.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
itsbrokenagain,
I was just trying to shed some facts to counter the claim that it is so easy for a foreign pilot to get a job in the US and that we should kick Indians out of US workforce because India is sending expat pilots home.
The only way for a foreign person to come to work in the US if if they have a shortage of manpower in their specific occupation. In the last five years, US sent thousands of IT staff back when their H1-B (work visas) ran out and the US was able to employ their own citizens to fill the void. As far as pilots go: US does not issue work visas for foreign pilots. The only way to fly as a pilot in the US for a foreign pilot is to already have qualified for a 'green card' or be naturalized as a citizen (which can take years depending on many factors). As I said before; most of the pilots, NYC cab drivers and small business owners of Indian origin in the US are naturalized US citizens. On what basis can you 'kick' them out? In that case why stop with Indians...lets get rid of all Germans, Brits, Japanese, Africans etc. Soon the US will only have Indians left----Red Indians
But on the other hand, I do agree with others on lack of infrasructure in all aspects of Indian aviation. Expats deserve credit for doing a great job in accelerating safety by introducing better training standardization, CRM etc. Many Indian FOs I know would rather fly with an expat than their own! Also, outside of the airline world, Indians need to fix their own ab-initio program somehow. I have trained Commercial-Instrument rated Indian pilots who could not fly an ILS to save their lives. In the US, in airline training departments, we focus on transferring your knowledge and skills to a specific airplane. In India you are doing that in addition to providing basic flight instruction on how to fly an ILS, intercept a radial, reading a Jepp plate etc! As I said before, most brand new Indian FOs will not even come close to passing an IR rating in a C-172 in the US! And you cannot pay your examiner off like in India...be it a Private license or A320 rating. How do I know this: I was asked and offered bribes during my tenure in India. Don't take me wrong....it is not that Indian FOs are bad pilots....they are victims of a bad training system.
Is DGCA overstepping it's boundaries to write regulation to keep foreign pilots out? I personally think it is a bit overhanded and that it is a matter for Indian Immigration and not the DGCA. But different countries have different rules. They all don't have to follow the US footprint....do they?
To sum it up; if I were the DGCA, I would not be in too much of a hurry to kick the expats out....eventhough it is within their right to do so. To the very least, they must honor the contracts which were already signed off to individual expat pilots. But spare me the rhetoric that we Americans need to kick all 'Indian' workers out of the US because they kicked expat pilots out of India.
Happy landings!
I was just trying to shed some facts to counter the claim that it is so easy for a foreign pilot to get a job in the US and that we should kick Indians out of US workforce because India is sending expat pilots home.
The only way for a foreign person to come to work in the US if if they have a shortage of manpower in their specific occupation. In the last five years, US sent thousands of IT staff back when their H1-B (work visas) ran out and the US was able to employ their own citizens to fill the void. As far as pilots go: US does not issue work visas for foreign pilots. The only way to fly as a pilot in the US for a foreign pilot is to already have qualified for a 'green card' or be naturalized as a citizen (which can take years depending on many factors). As I said before; most of the pilots, NYC cab drivers and small business owners of Indian origin in the US are naturalized US citizens. On what basis can you 'kick' them out? In that case why stop with Indians...lets get rid of all Germans, Brits, Japanese, Africans etc. Soon the US will only have Indians left----Red Indians
But on the other hand, I do agree with others on lack of infrasructure in all aspects of Indian aviation. Expats deserve credit for doing a great job in accelerating safety by introducing better training standardization, CRM etc. Many Indian FOs I know would rather fly with an expat than their own! Also, outside of the airline world, Indians need to fix their own ab-initio program somehow. I have trained Commercial-Instrument rated Indian pilots who could not fly an ILS to save their lives. In the US, in airline training departments, we focus on transferring your knowledge and skills to a specific airplane. In India you are doing that in addition to providing basic flight instruction on how to fly an ILS, intercept a radial, reading a Jepp plate etc! As I said before, most brand new Indian FOs will not even come close to passing an IR rating in a C-172 in the US! And you cannot pay your examiner off like in India...be it a Private license or A320 rating. How do I know this: I was asked and offered bribes during my tenure in India. Don't take me wrong....it is not that Indian FOs are bad pilots....they are victims of a bad training system.
Is DGCA overstepping it's boundaries to write regulation to keep foreign pilots out? I personally think it is a bit overhanded and that it is a matter for Indian Immigration and not the DGCA. But different countries have different rules. They all don't have to follow the US footprint....do they?
To sum it up; if I were the DGCA, I would not be in too much of a hurry to kick the expats out....eventhough it is within their right to do so. To the very least, they must honor the contracts which were already signed off to individual expat pilots. But spare me the rhetoric that we Americans need to kick all 'Indian' workers out of the US because they kicked expat pilots out of India.
Happy landings!
Last edited by propdog; 22nd Nov 2009 at 19:19.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TopTup
Nice to see VARMINT getting the recognition he deserves. It would be difficult for him to fund his daughter's CPL course in California on an Air India InR salary alone - obviously he needs a USD income from somewhere and guess where it comes from!!
Eg: you only have to scratch the surface of what that VERMIN (read into that as you will) in charge of expat contracts does, and where his bank account(s) are. Can of worms there kids.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: FL360
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dear toptup,
there are a thousand ways of saying the same thing and i am afraid you tend to choose the worst options. nobody said that your concern for safety is wrong. but to say it with as much venom is. i am really amazed at the blatant personal remarks you have chosen to make against my posts. my posts may not be that great but hey! give me my space. clarifications!!! by "mediocrity", please accept that we dont need ace pilots in civil aviation. anybody with a conservative attitude and acceptable flying skill is welcome. as i said earlier, the proof of the pudding is in eating it. its been a while since youngsters got upgraded. so far so good.
one word of advice to the moderator. toptup has really lost all sense of balance. his posts are a case in point. abuse of any kind is not welcome, whether personal or general, whether intended or implied. but i know people of his ilk with limited education can do no better than ghetto dialect.
there are a thousand ways of saying the same thing and i am afraid you tend to choose the worst options. nobody said that your concern for safety is wrong. but to say it with as much venom is. i am really amazed at the blatant personal remarks you have chosen to make against my posts. my posts may not be that great but hey! give me my space. clarifications!!! by "mediocrity", please accept that we dont need ace pilots in civil aviation. anybody with a conservative attitude and acceptable flying skill is welcome. as i said earlier, the proof of the pudding is in eating it. its been a while since youngsters got upgraded. so far so good.
one word of advice to the moderator. toptup has really lost all sense of balance. his posts are a case in point. abuse of any kind is not welcome, whether personal or general, whether intended or implied. but i know people of his ilk with limited education can do no better than ghetto dialect.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: U.K.
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a supply and demand issue but to be honest I don't think it will help the unemployed fresh comms out at all for the reasons previously stated. The lack of GA is one of the problems they're having. Lots of Indians going to foreign flight schools due to a lack of flight training in India which again misses the opportunity for having Indian pilots able to work as instructors.
Of course national pilots should be priority but it's not as simple as setting a number to get rid of by a given date. Seniority in an aircraft should not be a decision based on demographics but rather on demonstrated competency and experience, you can't set that to a time table.
It must also be added that most countries in the West do allow for some level of permanent residency for foreign workers with enough time spent on work permits.
Hopefully the market will begin to turn around. For the Indian pilots with low hours and currently unemployed, I do feel for you but I was there once too, as long as I remember aviation has gone in cycles and getting that first job is rarely easy.
Lovely country and people.
Of course national pilots should be priority but it's not as simple as setting a number to get rid of by a given date. Seniority in an aircraft should not be a decision based on demographics but rather on demonstrated competency and experience, you can't set that to a time table.
It must also be added that most countries in the West do allow for some level of permanent residency for foreign workers with enough time spent on work permits.
Hopefully the market will begin to turn around. For the Indian pilots with low hours and currently unemployed, I do feel for you but I was there once too, as long as I remember aviation has gone in cycles and getting that first job is rarely easy.
Lovely country and people.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airflirt.... You got personal when you played the race card. You drew the venom. And I'll restate it. You are pathetic. You fail to use FACTS to support an arguement but resort to labelling others as racist when you have nothing to contribute or your agenda is not satisfied. That is disgusting.
Once again your post embarresses you. To be proud of mediocrity in itself defines you. Those with an educated opinion can see my point of view. Some have openly supported it. Some challenge it in an educated and respectful manner. You label me racist. That in my eyes makes you scum.
I am concerned that you think my comments were implied? Nah...quite deliberate.
Your "space" is welcomed. Your agenda is not. Go back to ANY of my posts and find the racist comment. To label me or them as such is despised.
Imbecile.
This thread is not the place for this, and I've already lowered myself enough to respond. You want a slanging match, send me a PM, otherwise sit dumb and happy in your mediocre world.
Once again your post embarresses you. To be proud of mediocrity in itself defines you. Those with an educated opinion can see my point of view. Some have openly supported it. Some challenge it in an educated and respectful manner. You label me racist. That in my eyes makes you scum.
I am concerned that you think my comments were implied? Nah...quite deliberate.
Your "space" is welcomed. Your agenda is not. Go back to ANY of my posts and find the racist comment. To label me or them as such is despised.
Imbecile.
This thread is not the place for this, and I've already lowered myself enough to respond. You want a slanging match, send me a PM, otherwise sit dumb and happy in your mediocre world.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birthplace of Aviation
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is safety really an issue in India?
I am writing this mail while transiting on an international flight to VIDP. I have regard for toptup and the things he writes. I may sound contrary in this mail, but I will like to focus on the issue of safety as seen in India in its own social and sovereign relationship.
3500 people, mostly of adult working age, die annually on the railroads of Bombay. Every death is an unfortunate combination of 'rare' and yet too 'common' an event. I had stayed in that city for almost a decade and am fond of that city. One sordid afternoon I happened to witness such an accident.
A 12 car train, at super-crush-load of 15 passenger per square meter of available floor, with total 6400 plus passengers, hits a commuter crossing the railway line. The body disintegrates in half a dozen pieces. Somebody is tasked to gather the pieces. That guy works with bare hands, collects the pieces and his face and his gesture shows a kind of madness at this jobs... the train service doesn't stop, commuters turn their faces away, and get on to catch there train. Incidents like this 3,500 a year in a single city, 10 every day.
Safety is NOT an issue in India.
Approximately 20 road accident death every hour, not monthly, not daily, every hour. Annual count of approx 0.2 million road deaths.
Safety is NOT an issue in India.
In the delta of Ganges and Brahmputra (SangPo), lies the protected Sunderbans, habitat of Royal Bengal Tigers and honey-bees. Quiet a dangerous place for honey-collectors. They still go there, collect honey... in a good year only 50 are killed by the National beast. How much does the bottle of honey fetch, a 50 cents or may be a dollar?
Safety is NOT an issue in India.
Aviation in comparison, is super-duper-safe. Please don't count this as an excuse for the alleged/actual recklessness shown by ATC/FlightCrew/Regulators. This is just to show, what we have got here in aviation is somehow, notionally and unfortunately adequate enough.
What is more important, safety or transportation, or honey, I feel unexplicably uncomfortable answering that question, frankly I cannot answer that question.
I understand toptup's emphasis on safety, and safety should get importance. But exactly how much importance does the safety deserve, that has to be decided by the 'local'.
But I will love, If toptup can write a letter to the civil aviation authority of at least his country to consider downgrading or outrightly banning Indian carriers from operating in that country's national airspace. In my opinion thats the most effective way he can address the safety issue. I will repeat safety is NOT an issue in India.
dgtl887:
I agree to the objectionable usage of the phrase 'civilized country', but I hope in the view of the real life facts I have given above, India of today, is nowhere close to being a civilized place, It was one in the past, but now its decaying fast. If I can borrow from Shashi Tharoor, "A highly civilised country in an advanced stage of decay", this description is realistic and optimistic at the same time.
Calling a casual usage of the phrase 'civilised countries' as racism, is highly unwarranted. We are average pilots here, and not all of us possess literary sophistication in the English language to use each and every phrase correctly, but keeping calm is quiet a needed quality in the profession.
Skydancer Wrote:
There is no such thing as reverse racism. Acceptance and use of the phrase "reverse racism" is acknowledgment and to some degree acceptance of racism . I hope with you.
Agree to hoover:
The race card is the most used on this thread.. or threads like this. Safety is measurable. Sometimes mediocrity may just be safe enough. When it comes to $ everything is optimized. In some scheme of optimization mediocrity is just fine enough. And in some systems if you can bring in mediocrity its quiet an improvement to the system.
The acceptable standards are specified by the DGCA and the Airlines. I will rate DGCA, much lower than a mediocre organisation, if you can bring in mediocrity to DGCA, its quiet an improvement.
Jumpdrive:
If thats all you could say, than you ought have stayed silent. Because inadvertently whatever you have said has exposed a big deal about your capabilities.
Toptup:
I can only wish good luck to all those who have a contract, if DGCA does make it illegal, than the expat contracts will be terminated under Force Majeure. But I am sure thats not what will happen, the phase out will be gradual process and not a sudden one.
In India the law follows innocent-until-proven-guilty. "Shortcuts, trade-offs, corruption, bribery, compromises" may be visible but not proven. If it has not been systematically proven, it cannot be remedied. I will resist from being romantic about these. The aviation in India is not ready to divorce itself from the above vices.
WiedoSalt
Its not nationalistic pride, its nationalistic need to provide employment, let the Indian Commuter, Indian Regulator, Indian Legislator, Indian Aviator and Indian Operator decide how much safety they want.
If that level of safety is not safe enough to enter your country, please ban these airlines, call ICAO.
Your insistence on a safety level, of which neither toptup, nor you have provided any metric, is legitimately seen as an intrusion. I am sure in your country you don't go and tell your neighbor how to treat his wife and kids. I am sure you do care that all citizen are safe and they get their rights. But still you don't go knocking on you neighbors door. You may go to city police, or city council, or state legislator, or house or reps.
Similarly in aviation there is a mechanism, to promote safety without intruding into sovereign economic or political issues. By telling Indian pilots that "you are not safe enough", you are simply intruding. And thats why your arguments about safety, which otherwise will be so welcome, are somehow rendered unwelcome.
I am not a sure how a French or Spaniard will comment on your "Nationalistic Pride taking precedence over safety", because the very use of the phrase indicates that you have given "Nationalistic Pride" precedence over common sense and reasoning.
This is funny, A country that loads her every newborn with a debt of 40,000 USD, right at the birth, should be the last one to even think of protectionism. Its only comfortable for Obama to frown on protectionism.
I cannot cover rdr's input in this post so will post later.
Happy landings
3500 people, mostly of adult working age, die annually on the railroads of Bombay. Every death is an unfortunate combination of 'rare' and yet too 'common' an event. I had stayed in that city for almost a decade and am fond of that city. One sordid afternoon I happened to witness such an accident.
A 12 car train, at super-crush-load of 15 passenger per square meter of available floor, with total 6400 plus passengers, hits a commuter crossing the railway line. The body disintegrates in half a dozen pieces. Somebody is tasked to gather the pieces. That guy works with bare hands, collects the pieces and his face and his gesture shows a kind of madness at this jobs... the train service doesn't stop, commuters turn their faces away, and get on to catch there train. Incidents like this 3,500 a year in a single city, 10 every day.
Safety is NOT an issue in India.
Approximately 20 road accident death every hour, not monthly, not daily, every hour. Annual count of approx 0.2 million road deaths.
Safety is NOT an issue in India.
In the delta of Ganges and Brahmputra (SangPo), lies the protected Sunderbans, habitat of Royal Bengal Tigers and honey-bees. Quiet a dangerous place for honey-collectors. They still go there, collect honey... in a good year only 50 are killed by the National beast. How much does the bottle of honey fetch, a 50 cents or may be a dollar?
Safety is NOT an issue in India.
Aviation in comparison, is super-duper-safe. Please don't count this as an excuse for the alleged/actual recklessness shown by ATC/FlightCrew/Regulators. This is just to show, what we have got here in aviation is somehow, notionally and unfortunately adequate enough.
You want to safeguard local jobs at the sacrifice of safety THAT is my point. If there was no sacacrifice of safety then by all means employ the national pilots.
I understand toptup's emphasis on safety, and safety should get importance. But exactly how much importance does the safety deserve, that has to be decided by the 'local'.
But I will love, If toptup can write a letter to the civil aviation authority of at least his country to consider downgrading or outrightly banning Indian carriers from operating in that country's national airspace. In my opinion thats the most effective way he can address the safety issue. I will repeat safety is NOT an issue in India.
dgtl887:
Civilised countries ? I'd advise you to watch your tongue when posting in this forum. Take your racist nonsense elsewhere.
Calling a casual usage of the phrase 'civilised countries' as racism, is highly unwarranted. We are average pilots here, and not all of us possess literary sophistication in the English language to use each and every phrase correctly, but keeping calm is quiet a needed quality in the profession.
Skydancer Wrote:
.... Nowadays the world is suffering from reverse racism and nothing much is being done about it.
Agree to hoover:
how can mediocrity be safe?....... ....Please stop using the race card whenever you don't have an answer.
The acceptable standards are specified by the DGCA and the Airlines. I will rate DGCA, much lower than a mediocre organisation, if you can bring in mediocrity to DGCA, its quiet an improvement.
Jumpdrive:
all i can say is
GET A JOB
before the %$@# really hits the FAN
GET A JOB
before the %$@# really hits the FAN
Toptup:
Back to the thread: train the nation pilots to the standard suitable. No shortcuts, no trade-offs, no corruption, no bribery, no compromises. (And that DOES NOT only refer to India). See the expat contracts out as per the legalities they are due, then induct the well trained, disciplined and suitable national pilots.
In India the law follows innocent-until-proven-guilty. "Shortcuts, trade-offs, corruption, bribery, compromises" may be visible but not proven. If it has not been systematically proven, it cannot be remedied. I will resist from being romantic about these. The aviation in India is not ready to divorce itself from the above vices.
WiedoSalt
As far as Government sanctioned nationalistic pride taking precedence over safety is concerned
If that level of safety is not safe enough to enter your country, please ban these airlines, call ICAO.
Your insistence on a safety level, of which neither toptup, nor you have provided any metric, is legitimately seen as an intrusion. I am sure in your country you don't go and tell your neighbor how to treat his wife and kids. I am sure you do care that all citizen are safe and they get their rights. But still you don't go knocking on you neighbors door. You may go to city police, or city council, or state legislator, or house or reps.
Similarly in aviation there is a mechanism, to promote safety without intruding into sovereign economic or political issues. By telling Indian pilots that "you are not safe enough", you are simply intruding. And thats why your arguments about safety, which otherwise will be so welcome, are somehow rendered unwelcome.
I am not a sure how a French or Spaniard will comment on your "Nationalistic Pride taking precedence over safety", because the very use of the phrase indicates that you have given "Nationalistic Pride" precedence over common sense and reasoning.
n retaliation for this practice, US congress & all foreign gov't of developed countries must ban all Indians working in their aviation industry. this Indian practice is called protectionism & frowned upon by Obama admin. & free & fair trade.
I cannot cover rdr's input in this post so will post later.
Happy landings
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jimmygill.... BRAVO. 
That [airflirt] is a well educated and well informed post. While I disagree in principle on some issues I more than appreciate the reasoning. Some arguements I have not considered before. A sincere thanks.
I did have a meeting with a guy from the regulatory aurthority in my home country. He was very interested and amazed. The details we all know. Needless to say however, welcome to politics! Guess who puts in HUGE orders from Boeing? Not to mention the many other industries.... This creates jobs, and so the big, ugly, dirty wheel turns. So, is India the only guilty party? Hell no.
That still does not remove that fact that oversights in training and safety are deliberately and methodically overlooked everyday. (Not only in India). To know about them, accept them and doing nothing OR as others prefer, to EMBRACE medicrity is just not on.
BUT! This thread is about removing experienced (expat) pilots from India and replacing those numbers with inexperienced pilots that will be churned through a system that fails them. I would still be arguing the same point as strongly if it were experienced national pilots being removed under the same guise.
Again, Jimmygill - cheers. Well written. I think a lot of people are better informed as a result. I may not agree with all issues but appreciate the well formed opinion.
That [airflirt] is a well educated and well informed post. While I disagree in principle on some issues I more than appreciate the reasoning. Some arguements I have not considered before. A sincere thanks.
I did have a meeting with a guy from the regulatory aurthority in my home country. He was very interested and amazed. The details we all know. Needless to say however, welcome to politics! Guess who puts in HUGE orders from Boeing? Not to mention the many other industries.... This creates jobs, and so the big, ugly, dirty wheel turns. So, is India the only guilty party? Hell no.
That still does not remove that fact that oversights in training and safety are deliberately and methodically overlooked everyday. (Not only in India). To know about them, accept them and doing nothing OR as others prefer, to EMBRACE medicrity is just not on.
BUT! This thread is about removing experienced (expat) pilots from India and replacing those numbers with inexperienced pilots that will be churned through a system that fails them. I would still be arguing the same point as strongly if it were experienced national pilots being removed under the same guise.
Again, Jimmygill - cheers. Well written. I think a lot of people are better informed as a result. I may not agree with all issues but appreciate the well formed opinion.
Last edited by TopTup; 23rd Nov 2009 at 12:30.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: FL360
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dear jimmygill, that was a well written reply. i hope toptup gets the answer. i am only stating fact when i say that youngsters are doing a great job so far. mediocrity is not evil as jimmy has rightly pointed out.growing countries like india have far fewer resources than they are ready to believe. and every attempt at recruiting hot-shots (like toptup) comes with a hefty price tag and even heftier arrogance and attitude. and nobody becomes proficient unless thay are put through the paces. i agree that safety needs a lot more emphasis. DGCA india has far more conservative stance . proof!!! look a indian rules, which are always far more conservative than icao mandate. india of late has been in news for wrong reasons, like strikes and scuffles etc. i hope sanity returns soon.
dear toptup, you call me dispicable. look at you. you have turned a nice little debate into a slanging match. you have to take your remarks else where. this board can do without your downright preposterous tone & inferior usage of language.your standards have only dropped since i first read your post. as far i go , my relatively superior education only allows me so much response to your muck. i shall behold myself from replying to your abuse in future. as for you, with that tone and tenor, even well meaning remarks of yours will be taken in wrong spirit everytime.
live happy in your ghetto world
god bless.
dear toptup, you call me dispicable. look at you. you have turned a nice little debate into a slanging match. you have to take your remarks else where. this board can do without your downright preposterous tone & inferior usage of language.your standards have only dropped since i first read your post. as far i go , my relatively superior education only allows me so much response to your muck. i shall behold myself from replying to your abuse in future. as for you, with that tone and tenor, even well meaning remarks of yours will be taken in wrong spirit everytime.
live happy in your ghetto world
god bless.
Last edited by airflirt; 24th Nov 2009 at 02:39.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Over here & there
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what's the word on the future of the expat pilot in India? Are they going to renew you guys "FATA" or not after July 2010?
Don't worry--There are still lots of jobs out there for A-320/B737NG/B-777/A330 pilots, as long as you have time on the aircraft as a P1.
Perhaps it time to get a head start, so that when July 2010 comes along, you won't be one of those 500 expats looking for a job.
From reading most of these posts, it appears that you have about 18 months. Plenty of time to do a thorough job search. And by the way, China is offering a lot more money than the Indian carriers, as well as 3 year contracts.
Don't worry--There are still lots of jobs out there for A-320/B737NG/B-777/A330 pilots, as long as you have time on the aircraft as a P1.
Perhaps it time to get a head start, so that when July 2010 comes along, you won't be one of those 500 expats looking for a job.
From reading most of these posts, it appears that you have about 18 months. Plenty of time to do a thorough job search. And by the way, China is offering a lot more money than the Indian carriers, as well as 3 year contracts.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: newdelhi
Age: 43
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
racism in india
first of all my dear expat i can see that you are a bit frustated coz might be contract is getting over very soon in india due to DGCA 's very good and thought full decesion which i truly appreciate from the bottom of my heart
first if you are working out of your country i mean anywhere please have some good views , as that country gave bread and butter to you and your family which your country didnt give even you r a proud citizen of it
so cheers there are a lot of jobs still outside, wat i can see in india expat pilots were paid ransome so wat they all want more now its time for them to go back as there are lots of local pilots avail able
i can think as a indian i cant work in western countries coz of lots of regulations
eg in europe to work for you need be a european union passport holder plus jaa licence and lots of formalities . this all rules are so that an outsider cant apply there and the jobs remain for their own people. smart whites
and if they come to india and fly they not need to be a indian licence holder just fly on a permit on the basis of original licence god knows where they get from..
so at least have some good views and a good heart
first if you are working out of your country i mean anywhere please have some good views , as that country gave bread and butter to you and your family which your country didnt give even you r a proud citizen of it
so cheers there are a lot of jobs still outside, wat i can see in india expat pilots were paid ransome so wat they all want more now its time for them to go back as there are lots of local pilots avail able
i can think as a indian i cant work in western countries coz of lots of regulations
eg in europe to work for you need be a european union passport holder plus jaa licence and lots of formalities . this all rules are so that an outsider cant apply there and the jobs remain for their own people. smart whites
and if they come to india and fly they not need to be a indian licence holder just fly on a permit on the basis of original licence god knows where they get from..
so at least have some good views and a good heart
