Air India pilots on strike.

[fullforward]

Safety Culture

Getting lost on its own homeland airport, inflight rape & fight, rats (everywere)... This summ up for the Indian aviation culture picture.
And, off course, blame it all on that nasty expats...

[jimmygill]

Small Town, Safety Culture

Young guns cannot handle this life style especially as a lot of them are from small towns and from conservative back grounds. Cases of sexual harassment and other such issues including stealing of hotel supplies, duty free smuggling etc have been plaguing all airlines recently (I believe an earlier poster has also mentioned these here). This has reached alarming proportions and will cost all airlines huge amounts.

Hailing from a small town cannot be translated into having inclination towards sexual harassment or stealing towels. Your argument sounds elitist, just like the Indian Army's argument about the young officers. The army thinks that not enough number of officers are coming from military (elitist) background, and hence they are unable to recruit up to full quota. Both of these arguments undermine quality training and quality selection.

On the other hand its also true that the HR-MBAs awarded by so many institutes in India aren't worth their weight in toilet paper. That, kind of rules out quality-selection. Airlines are still left with the quality training option, how inefficient it may have been rendered by lack of quality selection.

That kind of reminds me of a really 'dumb' squadron leader from Indian Air Force who was teaching at a ground school in India. He came and asked me, "How would this poster suite on the walls of students dormitory?" The poster read in very bold face "Do not improvise!"

It is wise in India to always support the suggestion of your bosses, no matter how insane or inane they may sound. I really wanted to tell him, "If I were living in that dorm I would rather have a life size Marlyn Monroe poster than any wisecracks." Alas, I never had a very good reputation of being a wise man.

"Do not improvise!" is elitist. When safety is everybody's business everybody should improvise.

[Wannabe Flyer]

When safety is everybody's business everybody should improvise

Hope you are not talking about the famous Indian Jugaad. This is the most dangerous kind of improvisation which tends to happen in buckets in India. I would prefer by the book as things tend to get out of control and opinionated otherwise.

Sorry if I came across as elitist, however that was not the intention. The intention was to demonstrate what you have actually stated well. Un regulated schools and colleges churning out people who think they everything and yet lack the basic skills to communicate or have civic sense or even stand in a line. I studied in a school in a small town which has and continues to imbibe good value systems amongst its alumni.

It is wise in India to always support the suggestion of your bosses, no matter how insane or inane they may sound. I really wanted to tell him, "If I were living in that dorm I would rather have a life size Marlyn Monroe poster than any wisecracks."

This is petty thought process that all need to break out of. Next time your Boss asks you to do something out of your job description politely and firmly tell him no. Remember the origins of CRM.........if I remember correctly Teneriffe 1977 showed all what such a mind set can do.

Sorry about you not being able to have Marilyn Monroe poster in your dorm. I had my stash of Playboys and life size blow ups of Sam Fox with little left to imagination. Did see my boss "improvising" more than once

Cheers mate the mind and mentality has to change someday and what better day than today!

[weido_salt]

"Did see my boss "improvising" more than once"

Haha!! Good one!!

It is very cost effective, the improvisation you are referring too. I would be a wealthy man if I had "improvised" more often!

[Wannabe Flyer]

It is very cost effective, the improvisation you are referring too. I would be a wealthy man if I had "improvised" more often!

Yes agree it is very cost effective. Also forgot that in India they have laid a price on Human life!

[jimmygill]

'Jugaad' & Chess of Improvisation

This is petty thought process that all need to break out of. Next time your Boss asks you to do something out of your job description politely and firmly tell him no. Remember the origins of CRM.........if I remember correctly Teneriffe 1977 showed all what such a mind set can do.

Thanks for the advise, I really appreciate that... trying to get rid of a particular mindset is where every individual is free to 'improvise' and thats. 'Jugaad' is an improvisation too. But it resulted when several other failed to improvise (State Motor Vehicle Departments, SMVDs). The pioneers of 'Jugaad' have posed a problem to the SMVDs to improvise in a such a fashion so as to preserve the economics of 'jugaad' and still guarantee safety. But the hurdle is SMVDs have failed to recognize the problem. Its their (SMVDs) turn in the chess game. Not having any idea about what move to play next, they are looking here and there.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Details Of Flight Crew Of Ic-884 Sharjah Delhi

Wow

That's a pretty fresh crew on board. I wonder what kind of hours they had.

Also cabin crew having CPL's well, shows the glut in the market and why there is this whole anti expat sentiment. However Cest la vie. Every dog has his turn and they will get theirs too.

Considering the high levels of maturity in the cockpit that fateful day and now having the ages and the experience in front of us, maybe a little toning done of the xenophobic behavior is the offing. The writing is on the wall. Pilots are like fine wine. They become better only with age

[IndAir967]

So, Jetstream, I notice that you and the rats following your flute have all gone quiet since being exposed and commented on by others. You have been called out and you have NOTHING.

Moderators, if you want to penalise me then so be it. But have a good look at WHY I have written what I have and be fair. Call a spade a spade and pathetic racist s.o.b. a pathetic racist s.o.b.

No wonder you couldnt survive AI

Bonne Landings !

[jimmygill]

Moderators, if you want to penalise me then so be it. But have a good look at WHY I have written what I have and be fair. Call a spade a spade and pathetic racist s.o.b. a pathetic racist s.o.b.

Whoever has written that, must take into calculation that fairness is not as much a standard as it is a matter of perspective. While deliberating on an issue which crosses cultures, one should exercise a great deal of caution as one may not be having a perspective of what 'fair' is. If the author has exercised that caution, then I believe he is to , if he has not then he is no different from what he is accusing, a pathetic racist s.o.b. or a spade.

[TopTup]

JimmyGill... I wrote that and withdrew my post as it was written out of frustration and not fair. The reason I gave was "Life is too short".

But, fairness is not a "perspective". The law on what is fair and right / illegal and legal is blind. Or so it is meant to be unless some people can bribe it otherwise.

A "perspective" may be that one stole because the person I stole from can afford the loss and I am happy, therefore it is OK. Perspective. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Justify it as it as one will.

What Jetstream wrote was a tale of "from my podium" and a blatant attack on anyone at AI not Indian. Some points well written but denegrated by xenophobia. I am told that due my intolerance I found it difficult and hence left AI - exactly. I couldn't survive AI and am proud I didn't lower my standards as was required should I stay.

But, this diverts from the thread of AI' "strike". It was a "sick-out" and nothing more. When the sheets are pulled back the despicable mess is being revealed. And, it will always be someone elses fault.....too bad if they are not Indian as a linching rope will be placed nearby.

Arrogant. Dangerous. Corrupt. Wrong.

[ghuman_07]

y is toptup always in d middle of a controversy ????????
ever heard d principle of live n let live,, aviation was there before u existed and will continue even when ur gone.....

[jimmygill]

y is toptup always in d middle of a controversy ????????
ever heard d principle of live n let live,, aviation was there before u existed and will continue even when ur gone.....

Indeed aviation was there even before most of us took our first step and started training our mind and spine to learn to balance. It will exist when we all are gone. Even if the Wright brothers would have succumbed to some accident or illness while they were very young. Aviation would have happened.

But it will be a different aviation when we all would have eschewed certain values, that people like toptup, and everyone else who is involved in aviation with their integrity intact, cherishes. At a certain level its not about flying the aircraft, its much more than that. Which I hope you may be aware of. But in this poster's case my hope is mere optimism. To me it doesn't seem like that he didn't get a sound education in the English language, but apparently he gave up what he learnt. I hope he hadn't given up his aviation education. Getting a good aviation education is scarcer than getting a good English education. Pardon me if am acting like a grandpa... I am bit futuristic you see.

[rdr]

ghuman and indair967,

a pilots licence in other parts of the world does not confer a false status on you as it does in India. (nowhere in the world is a 150 hr fresher called a capt, except in India). you have to earn your stripes through hard work. the foreign capts you are so against, in line with that idiot jetstream, do not deserve your childish pot shots here in this professional forum.
here, all pilots are on a level playing field, even if they come from mars.

i realise that the Indian culture, inspite of having many outstanding values, is devoid of fairness and accountability and is all about who you know, or how much you have. in the rest of the world (almost), a pilots pedigree is measured by his performance and track record.
if you cannot cultivate respect amongst your fellow professionals on the basic matter of race or nationality, you are better off chewing paan, than flying aeroplanes.

[IndAir967]

a pilots licence in other parts of the world does not confer a false status on you as it does in India. (nowhere in the world is a 150 hr fresher called a capt, except in India). you have to earn your stripes through hard work. the foreign capts you are so against, in line with that idiot jetstream, do not deserve your childish pot shots here in this professional forum.
here, all pilots are on a level playing field, even if they come from mars.

i realise that the Indian culture, inspite of having many outstanding values, is devoid of fairness and accountability and is all about who you know, or how much you have. in the rest of the world (almost), a pilots pedigree is measured by his performance and track record.
if you cannot cultivate respect amongst your fellow professionals on the basic matter of race or nationality, you are better off chewing paan, than flying aeroplanes.

eh what are u tryin to convey ??
whom r u tryin to impress ??
when did i complain about expats in india ?
OR whom did i disrespect ?

[rdr]

Indair967

Jet Streams that was one of the best posts i got to read now a days ..
I suggest you raise awareness among public about the real reasons on why our carrier has been loosing money instead of cutting salaries..
Bonne Landings !

this was your comment on that idiot jetstreams anti foreigner post.

"for evil to succeed, all it takes is a few good men to do nothing."

this forum is not Indian, or Korean, or Russian, or any planets. if a fellow professional comes out condemning others here by virtue of nationality, its customary to cut him down, instead of ra-raing him on. and i do believe that you are a good man joining the ranks as a world aviator ultimately.

[IndAir967]

RDR
you ve got me wrong.. i had appreciated jet streams for some points
which he brought out and which even i wanted to stress on like bad route
planning .. improper marketting strategy .. and a lot of management flaws that were and are in AI and that desperately needs to be changed to see the greens ..
I never was and never will talk about expats flying in india and I have no issues with it..
According to me :-
AVIATION WAS NEVER OR NEITHER WILL BE AN ABOUT AN STATE, COUNTRY OR A REGION.. IT IS AN GLOBAL INDUSTRY AND IS INTER-DEPENDENT ON PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD !
Bonne Landings

[casper63]

Dear Rdr,

Please read Top Tub's Post. You will surely like to take back your previous post. Top Tub may be an exceptional pilot(at least he thinks so) but he has no manners. His anti India campaign is disgusting. He calls others xenophobic but he himself is the worst example. I have time again requested him not to criticise all Indian pilots in general, based on his sour experience with one airline.

And Mr Top Tub if you are still around please take your own advise and stay away and have a drink. It would surely do good to your High BP. If you abuse all Indians pilots, we can surely retaliate in good measure. But I think some of us has more character than you and the God's own country you disgrace.

Thanks

[jimmygill]

Has Jetstream been misread?

Seems to me, that answer to that question is yes in many cases. I will try to present my view on what he has written.

*1)Artificially Created Pilot Shortage*: During the tenure of Mr V.Thulasidas as the CMD, brand new aircraft worth billions of dollars, both Boeing777s & 737s were kept parked on the ground for months due to an acute shortage of Pilots (Captains)- resulting in hundreds of crores of losses
every month. This in spite of having hundreds of qualified Indian Co-pilots who could have been promoted to fill vacancies of Captains but were not. Who was responsible for the stoppage of training for these co-pilots preventing their promotions - thus resulting in the free hand given to officials in Air India, DGCA & the Ministry of Civil Aviation to give the go ahead to recruit Expatriates?

Here qualified Indian co-pilots mean, pilots available with Air India who have been flying from the right seat and have an ALTP (At least 1500 hrs, legal minimum, flight time, and may be few thousand company minimum). 150 hrs pilots cannot be captains of an airliner in any country I am aware of, specifically not in India. Minimum legal flight time required for CPL in India is 200 hrs. I don't understand what to make out of 150 hrs claim, put in by so many of posters here.

It is only natural to be a bit intolerant if one's 'job' / 'chances of promotion' / 'chances of job' is taken away by an Expat. I am not sure if it can be described as xenophobic. Nevertheless this part of the post only refers to AI's possible short sightedness, miss-management which lead to having a shortage of trained captains. It also indicates that there may be some corruption involving recruiting agencies, AI and/or Ministry Officials.

*2)Preferential Treatment of Foreigners*: How is it today that the cash strapped airline can pay foreign pilots ( some 180 + in number) their full
salaries on time and not retrench even a single one even though it claims its own national pilots are "underutilized" and the company has not been paying 31000 Indian employees their full salaries since August ?

Expats are paid as per the demand-supply situation. It turns out that expats get paid more than the Indian counterpart. Part of this owes to demand-supply situation (actual/apparent), and part to contractual nature of engagement. Arguing against preferential treatment, or pointing out that preferential treatment may be because of corruption/malpractice/mismanagement cannot be termed xenophobic either.

*All this, inspite of the fact that all foreign pilots are junior to Indians in seniority !* ( I have nothing PERSONAL against any expat and some of the ones I have flown with are not only good professionals but also good human beings. The point I am making is one of home grown discrimination in my own country )

In an organisation where seniority is the only metric for promotion, its really frustrating that some arrangement may exist to bypass that metric. After all it doesn't pay to be a good professional in Air India. It is easy to read from the parenthesis that writer is not xenophobic at all. He is pointing out to discrimination extended to him or his class in his own homeland.

Why are expat pilots given preferential treatment over Indians even at the cost of safety - by allowing them to be certified by foreign medical boards with medical standards that are far lower than those prescribed by the
Indian DGCA for Indian pilots? There are foreigners flying in Air India who would have failed even Air India's own company pre employment medical tests.

This question becomes interesting, because of the word 'safety'. Here only aspect of safety being addressed is physical fitness. In India physical fitness is ascertained by Air Force Medical boards. I won't say they are strict. I will say they are unreasonable, you really can't reason them. If the machinery in India perceives that a ATPL cannot be issued without these physicals, then none should be allowed to exercise the same privileges. In case they think that ATPL can be issued without these physicals then its a blatant discrimination against Indian pilots, well by their own government. After all a pilots right to livelihood is closely attached to his getting a Fit to fly endorsement on these physicals. Such a discrimination should not be taken lightly.

*Since when have foreigners become more important in a Government run company ?*

The key point is already in bold.

[QUOTE]"a B777 captain who I know personally, joined AI without a single hour as PIC ,fudged his log book, proudly "created" a few hundred hours extra prior to joining and got a rubber seal made to certify his logbook"/QUOTE]

Desperate circumstances require desperate measures.

*3)Massive Tax Breaks Expats are paid their salaries through their
placement firms in offshore destinations. Thus hundreds of crores worth of
income tax is denied to the Indian exchequer. Ironically the CMD and his
Minister want a bailout to save these very jobs !!

Why should the taxpayer save such jobs? At least I cannot come to any answer.

So all this talk of xenophobia seems quiet baseless. Unless of course if the posters happen to know jetstreams in person and have found him xenopobic.

[weido_salt]

jimmygill

Take the point re the Indian medical examination.

"I will say they are unreasonable, you really can't reason them."

You and every Indian must know an Indian pilot who has been lost to the industry prematurely through loss of a medical. I.E., lost their jobs but in all probability would have kept their jobs under another licensing system..

Now the strike before AI's strike was about 2 guys loosing their jobs. Well you can beat a lot more guys have lost their jobs due to the intransigence of the Indian military medical board and possibly been replaced by a foreigner.

Would this not be a better reason to go on strike, if the wiff of mutiny is in air? To try and get the playing field levelled somewhat and use ICAO for medical acceptance standards in India? Very often the first sign of heart disease for is cardiac arrest and it doesn't always single out the unfit among us. Or is it you find the foreigner issue an easier target?

Show some real balls and take on the DGCA.

[jimmygill]

Expats vs Physical: Which one is an issue?

jimmygill

Take the point re the Indian medical examination.

"I will say they are unreasonable, you really can't reason them."

You and every Indian must know an Indian pilot who has been lost to the industry prematurely through loss of a medical. I.E., lost their jobs but in all probability would have kept their jobs under another licensing system..

Now the strike before AI's strike was about 2 guys loosing their jobs. Well you can beat a lot more guys have lost their jobs due to the intransigence of the Indian military medical board and possibly been replaced by a foreigner.

Would this not be a better reason to go on strike, if the wiff of mutiny is in air? To try and get the playing field levelled somewhat and use ICAO for medical acceptance standards in India? Very often the first sign of heart disease for is cardiac arrest and it doesn't always single out the unfit among us. Or is it you find the foreigner issue an easier target?

Show some real balls and take on the DGCA.

Yes, I agree with you that working towards getting a level playing field should be a top priority for Indian pilots, not specifically limited to physicals. All the fuss about expatriates taking jobs is actually a direct result of neglecting this primary issue.

But pointing to this issue, you have pointed out an aspect of contemporary Indian culture, which has been brought to notice by several experts. The contemporary India culture severely downplays the need of common goods and services. Common goods and common services are neglected by almost everyone.

A level playing field is a common good, it will be neglected under current Indian perceptions. I don't need to quote visible examples of neglect of common goods and services in India. Anyone who has been to India will know what I am talking about. Getting Indian medical standards to the same level as ICAO is a common good, nobody really wants to work towards it.

And yes its easier to talk about the expat's issue, a few articles in media, 2 or 3 clips in news, small demonstration will be more than good enough to capture the attention of legislature. And thats why it was so easy to get DGCA to setup a July 2010 deadline for removing Expats. DGCA or minister can also do it Suo-Motto, without any need of agitation/representation from Indian pilots.

If I remember properly Boston Tea Party to get rid of the overseas influence of the Queen on America was much easier as compared to getting a level playing field for African-Americans. History is replete with such examples, getting rid of foreigners is much easier than getting rid of own deficiencies, at least in a democracy.

So as long as I am not the one who lost his job due to the too higher than necessary standards, I am not going to protest. Sad, but true. But if I was back there in early 1900s fighting the English out of India, it would have been easier for me to mutiny. But now in contemporary India, when democracy has given a veil of legitimacy to the governance things are harder than ever.

Just for the matter of record. Politically I am for freedom of Labor to move from one region of earth to another without any barrier, just like capital can flow without any barrier. So in my ideal world there will be so many expats in so many places, that the word expat itself will be at a loss of meaning. But in this not so Ideal world, what should be the wise way to sruvive?

PS:To all pilots operating in India, here is a chance to, say something about the Air Regulations
http://dgca.nic.in/dgca/Public%20Notice%20ARAP.pdf